Is Chorus and NTL the same damn company?

BopNiblets

Chorus and NTL websites very very very similar!
Evidence (it's a gif, click it and let it load):


They even use the same model in the orange shirt in the middle for fecks sake!

Are they the same company?
Because if they are we don't seem to have very much choice in cable/digital providers here.

Anyway, I was also interested in their digital TV services, is there an agreeed one on which is better or what?
Thanks.

watty

UPC bought both NTL IRELAND and Chorus.

When both the networks are brought up to UPC standards it will be rebranded. The Broadband offering will be called Chello and the Digital TV package will be the same everywhere, more similar to the larger offereing of NTL than the smaller offering of Chorus.

You don't have a choice, what ever digital service is currently in your area is what you get as Chorus and NTL Ireland never had an overlap

watty

The choice is between Satellite and Cable for Multichannel. Cable / MMDS is very geographically limited. I'd expect MMDS to lose its licence when Irish DTT starts in two or three years time.

There never ever was a choice of cable operator, other than having cable or not.

Freddie59

watty wrote:

The choice is between Satellite and Cable for Multichannel. Cable / MMDS is very geographically limited. I'd expect MMDS to lose its licence when Irish DTT starts in two or three years time.

There never ever was a choice of cable operator, other than having cable or not.

Watty - do you mind if I ask how you come to that conclusion? MMDS is a national (almost) fully digital system - the only one covering much of the island (counting out Sky).

I would imagine if the Government were to cancel a licence to replace it with a platform of their own the EU might have something to say about it.

gerryo

watty wrote:

I'd expect MMDS to lose its licence when Irish DTT starts in two or three years time.

I don't see this happening unless:

1. UPC don't want to keep running MMDS.

2. UPC have something better to replace it with.

3. The DTT service carries more or less the same channels as MMDS, making it uncompetitive for UPC to run MMDS.

4. The EU forces the gov. to stop using 2.4GHz for MMDS & UPC says they won't change/upgrade & drop the service.

If the Irish DTT does not carry the UK channels, then some sort of MMDS may have a future (not withstanding all UK channels becoming unencrypted & freely available on sat).

Given there is no control of program content for foreign sat services, if I was a gov. minister, i'd prefer people to watch/use my shiny new DTT service, so I'd make it easy to install & ensure it carried the UK channels (assuming copyright issues can be resolved) thus giving it a slight edge over sat.

However, if we get DTT without the usual UK channels (as in what's currently available on the NTL/Chorus services or what can be received OTA in the east coast), then DTT is a lame duck & MMDS might survive, but it might have to combine with other services such as broadband or telephony to be cost effective.

watty

UPC wants to offer phone / broadband to everyone on Cable. They can't do this on MMDS.

DTT will have the UK channels. It just is not clear how they will be paid for.

watty

Freddie59 wrote:

Watty - do you mind if I ask how you come to that conclusion? MMDS is a national (almost) fully digital system - the only one covering much of the island (counting out Sky).

I would imagine if the Government were to cancel a licence to replace it with a platform of their own the EU might have something to say about it.

If UPC was forced or wished to sell MMDS to the new non-existant DTT operator I would agree.

But most of the network is badly enginneered (dons asbestos coat), and nothing like national coverage.

And it is on the wrong frequency due to Government incompetance at the time.

Capt'n Midnight

watty wrote:

You don't have a choice, what ever digital service is currently in your area is what you get as Chorus and NTL Ireland never had an overlap

Even in the gaps between them you probably don't have a choice. Once one of them gives your area an install date you can't go to the other. Even if the install date is three years in the future.

rogue-entity

For us right now, NTL digital (the full whack) is still cheaper then going to Sky. It costs us about €64/month for NTL Digital in one room, and analogue multiroom in the rest of the house. It would cost the same amount just for Skys equivilent package in one room and you dont get the free multiroom, even if you are willing to pay the full price for the additional boxes. I am not surprised if people switch from Sky to NTL. Most people in the countryside I know have Sky because it is their only choice, even then, they go for the basic package.

gerryo

watty wrote:

UPC wants to offer phone / broadband to everyone on Cable. They can't do this on MMDS..

Not on the existing system, but they could engineer something, or perhaps it already exists elsewhere. Triple play can work over wireless. Given sufficient BW & resources, anything is possible.

Whether they can or want to offer extra OTA services is another matter.
It boils down to €€ & ROI.

watty wrote:

DTT will have the UK channels. It just is not clear how they will be paid for.

Yes, this is the 64K$ question, who to pay & how!

I have just imagined the worst case scenario, where licence holders have to pay again to receive RTE over DTT. That would be 100% unacceptable.

Make it so some are free , some are pay.
Perhaps something like top up TV, or else a viewing card.

Actually, they might (as some other poster mentioned, sorry can't remember name) just decide to use a viewing card for DTT as the method of licence fee collection, if you don't pay, you get no DTT & if analogue was gone, there would be no other way to get RTE.

However, that would still leave sat & fta, which is fair, since if you don't watch RTE, why should you pay. The big revenue loss due to opt-outers, means this may not fly.

Most likely, the current tv licence will remain in place.

How do Chorus/NTL pay the UK stations?

Just who will own the Irish DTT transmission network?

watty

There is no longer the spectrum available. UPC would have to team up or buy an existing wISP. I don't think either of these is likely.

MPEG4 may save DTT. With MPEG4 you can have 60+ channels instead of 30ish channels and then 120 channels or more after analogue turn off in 2012. 30ish channels does not work for a PayTV platform, 60+ with 20 free does.

The original idea was indeed for viewing card enabled by TV licence payment. The BBC is totally against such ideas, hence they withdrew from FTV card for Satellite. RTE has a different outlook on life. I think it is a stunningly bad idea from point of civil liberties etc. (Read Wilford Greatorx 1999 and George Orwell and Franz Kafka).

You don't pay a TV licence to watch RTE. It is essentially a tax on watching Broadcast Tv at all, by any means.

All Irish rebroadcasters pay a royalty to BBC, ITV, or even C4 and Five. Even "deflector" operators are now legally obliged to pay. The Irish Cable networks used to simply "steal" it.

The royalty for ALL UK terrestrial channels put together is not onerous, less I think than one "good" pay channel.

Some channels are not just FTA on satellite, but "Free To Carry".

No-one knows who will own the DTT network, but they are supposed really to buy RTENL too. A broadcaster is not supposed to control a broadcast network anymore as that is "anti-competitive". BBC sold theirs years ago.
E.g. DAB. Any independent network operator would have the main or all BBC radio on DAB. RTE management will NEVER put BBC radio on DAB, which has only about 1/5th of the stations to fill it at present.

The last bid for Irish DTT collapsed in 2001. No-one is showing any interest in buying the Network licence. The current trial is mostly politics and is no indication of ownership or content of the real Irish DTT network.

RTE will NOT be running the DTT network. This decided maybe 1999?

gerryo

watty wrote:

The original idea was indeed for viewing card enabled by TV licence payment. The BBC is totally against such ideas, hence they withdrew from FTV card for Satellite. RTE has a different outlook on life. I think it is a stunningly bad idea from point of civil liberties etc.

You don't pay a TV licence to watch RTE. It is essentially a tax on watching Broadcast Tv at all, by any means.

OK, it's a tax on owning a tv, whether you use it or not. AIUI, money goes solely to RTE, so it's really a tax to support the state broadcaster, which is allowed under EU law (I think).

If the DTT tranmsission network is not owned by RTE, they will have to pay for broadcasting, same as TV3 + others. If it's "free" to receive, then advertisers can be assured they are reaching the masses. If it costs € to access, due to the re-transmission of the UK channels, the guaranteed market is not there.

RTE's advertising revenues may suffer, they'll ask for an increase in the licence, we lose out.

Only way is to offer some free channels, then pay for the UK channels, etc.
The network operator becomes a provider, same as UPC.

Easiest way is to use viewing cards for the non free channels.
Problem, you need one for every tv in the household, so it has to be cheap.

If IPTV takes off in a big way, then all this is moot.

Freddie59

I think the point being missed here is that BBC/ITV, while still being a potent force, is gradually being eroded by the the plethora of other channels available.

For example, they would not be the issue to the 20-somethings that they may be to the 40-somethings. Even in my own home I used to be a big BBC/ITV fan I now find that my favourite channels are :

The History Channel (and such like)
Sky News
Sky One
Hallmark

They would be followed by BBC/ITV, but I do not watch as much on them as I used to. I watch very little Sports and Movies.

So, as others have pointed out, there is a sea change in viewing habits, and this is progressing with convergence and the advent of the Internet (broadband).

Indeed, were there not forecasts when BBC/ITV went FTA in 2001 of the imminent demise of the Cablecos? The same Cablecos that are now agressively pursuing the much-vaunted 'Triple Play'.

Interesting times ahead indeed.:)

watty

Only 10% or less of irish housholds can be connected to fast enough BB for IPTV.

I think the French TNT (DTT) is the model for Irish DTT. The UK channels are cheap enough (BBC/ITV about 4 or 5 each, C4 , Five) that they can be free, they need to be free for it to succeed against Sky / Cable. Then Sky Sport, Nat Geo, Discovery, Sky1, Hallmark, Disney, UKTV etc as pay channels.

10 times as many people watch BBC1 as Sky1!

Yes, without "triple play" cable is in trouble. UPC has the money to make this happen. NTL/Chorus didn't have the cash needed.

byte

Freddie59 wrote:

MMDS is a national (almost) fully digital system - the only one covering much of the island (counting out Sky).

In Donegal Town, which has MMDS, it's definitely not digital. It's a dreadful analogue picture, with I think 15 channels. Chorus have cable in the town also, but again, it's 15 channel analogue run over VHF Band I and Band III.

I think there is only one other town in Co Donegal with MMDS, which I also think does not have digital MMDS, just the dreadful analogue. Perhaps when UPC get into gear changes will be made.

Freddie59

watty wrote:

10 times as many people watch BBC1 as Sky1!

That may be the case Watty - but it does not change the fact that a change is occuring - and will only snowball.