How much maintenance is needed to keep on your additional muscle?

rubadub

I would like to reduce my bodyfat down to about 10% body fat and have 15-20lb more muscle than I had starting out. If I workout enough to gain 15lb and remain at 10% BF, how much weight training would I need to do per week to retain this? (on average, I know people will vary)

Could I get away with just a 1 hr full body workout per week? How much more do you need as the muscle goes up?

Boru.

To be totally honest its a pointless question with out considerably more detail. Depending on your total weight, ability to contract msucle, diet, neurological strength, training routine, genetics etc you may have to train as much as three days a week or as little as once a month for 5 minutes?

Get there first. Add the 15 lbs of muscle, cut the bodyfat, then find out how much you need to do to keep it. You won't know till your there.

rubadub

I know there are many factors involved. I was just looking for a rough estimate, what the average person will have to do.

You mention once a month for 5 mins, or 3 times a week, I am just curious what the in between is.

I do weight training to get and stay thin, I am not competing in any sports. I like the fact that when I have some muscle I can get away with eating more due to the higher metabolism. I would just like an idea of how much work I would have to do after I reach my preferred size, just to remain that size.

GrumPy

*highjacks*

Wait, what? you need to have a training schedule to retain muscle mass you have gained?? That sucks!! I was under the impression I could spend a few weeks doing some serious training, then sit around for the rest of the year, and not lose ANY muscle mass

Would anyone have any links for best ways to train, and KEEP gained muscle without having to goto the gym every frickin' day?

Dan133269

Irish GrumPy wrote:

Would anyone have any links for best ways to train, and KEEP gained muscle without having to goto the gym every frickin' day?

Doing push-ups, chin-ups, crunches, dips slowly and in proper form every second day will retain a considerable amount of muscle while you're losing weight won't it?

Boru.

rubadub wrote:

You mention once a month for 5 mins, or 3 times a week, I am just curious what the in between is.

Anything and everything - without knowing the person involved, training history and all the details I listed above it is impossible to determine. As for my 5 minute solution - it comes down to Training intensity and protocols.

I don't often discuss this on boards, but I train several clients who only workout once every 28+ on two part split, so they only train the same body part once every 56+ days. The workouts last 5 minutes and they are all very well muscled, stupidly strong and in great shape. The intensity of their training for those 5 minutes is extremely intense and requires in many cases specialised equipment. The reason for that huge delay isn't becasue they want to avoid workouts but because if they workout any sooner they will not have sufficently recovered and will not increase their strength or muscle size etc.

g'em

Can someone please explain to me why you'd want to work your ass off gaining muscle and then give it up?? Not lift?? Crazy idea...

rubadub

g'em wrote:

Can someone please explain to me why you'd want to work your ass off gaining muscle and then give it up?? Not lift?? Crazy idea...

I wasnt saying that, dunno if you were referring to me. I would like to get to a size I like and just stay that size. I do realise I will have to still lift, but I can get away with training less since it is just maintaining that size.
I don't know if Irish Grumpy was joking when he said

Wait, what? you need to have a training schedule to retain muscle mass you have gained?? That sucks!! I was under the impression I could spend a few weeks doing some serious training, then sit around for the rest of the year, and not lose ANY muscle mass

But I think many people do think this. I reckon that is the fear of many women and weights. Go to the gym, pick up the wrong weights by accident, and end up looking like ronnie coleman for the rest of your life:D

g'em

rubadub wrote:

I wasnt saying that, dunno if you were referring to me. I would like to get to a size I like and just stay that size. I do realise I will have to still lift, but I can get away with training less since it is just maintaining that size.

If it's a size worth getting to, by then lifting will have become a part of your life, it won't be something you do under pain, it'll be something you do to stay sane. But actually you can get away with only training oncec a week for about 8 or 9 weeks without losing any serious strength.

But again, why would you not want to lift?? Sorry, it's a concept that I just can't fathom

empirix

Boru. wrote:

I don't often discuss this on boards, but I train several clients who only workout once every 28+ on two part split, so they only train the same body part once every 56+ days. The workouts last 5 minutes and they are all very well muscled, stupidly strong and in great shape. The intensity of their training for those 5 minutes is extremely intense and requires in many cases specialised equipment. The reason for that huge delay isn't becasue they want to avoid workouts but because if they workout any sooner they will not have sufficently recovered and will not increase their strength or muscle size etc.

The workouts last 5 minutes - each body part 56 days!!!! Sorry but I just don't believe this, total codswallop!

g'em

empirix wrote:

The workouts last 5 minutes - each body part 56 days!!!! Sorry but I just don't believe this, total codswallop!

And this would be why Boru. doesn't talk about his training practices much on boards... :rolleyes:

I know a good bit about what Boru. does- it's not 'traditional', it won't be to everyone's taste, but the basic principles are very sound. I haven't seen or tried the training myself, but isometrics (which he uses) are a well-known ad increasingly used way of muscle training.

empirix

I know he uses isometrics, i have been to his site and was somewhat impressed, but five minutes - no way! Just because your familiar with Boru, don't take sides, do you not question this? Sorry i do and if your honest you do too, i would like to see some sort of description of what this five minutes entails and how it takes 56 days to recover - codswallop!

g'em

empirix wrote:

Just because your familiar with Boru, don't take sides, do you not question this?

ah chillax would ye, I'm not taking sides, I'm just saying keep an open mind and don't automatically dismiss the theory without knowing more about it. As I said, I've never seen it or tried it myself, but I'm not going to rubbish his methods without trying it first hand.

justsomebloke

empirix wrote:

Just because your familiar with Boru, don't take sides, do you not question this? Sorry i do and if your honest you do too,

eh the words pot kettle and black spring to mind here. You say g'em shouldn't just take boru. word for his results and that we should wait till we have prove that his methods work before believing them when at the same time you are saying that his methods can not be true without, knowing fully what his methods entail. sorry I just find that a bit rich

empirix

Sorry i disagree there about "pot" "kettle" "black" - i am saying its codswallop and but if he can outline otherwise, then do it. I am firmly sticking to the opinion of codswallop!

Dragan

empirix wrote:

Sorry i disagree there about "pot" "kettle" "black" - i am saying its codswallop and but if he can outline otherwise, then do it. I am firmly sticking to the opinion of codswallop!

Which you are perfectly entitled to, but as JSB said, it is a little funny that you claim others believe too easily while you dismiss just as easily.

Well, i find it funny anyway.

empirix

C'mon if it was that easy - the man would be on Oprah! with his new book and DVD. I am just being realistic, i'd be happy for him if it did work

TerrorFirmer

Well, all empirix is saying is that its somewhat easier to believe that it's not true rather then it is true.

Not saying anything myself, but Boru though certainly doesn't seem to be a man to talk rubbish but again, don't know anything about the methods myself.

Boru.

..and you are more than entitled to that opinion empirix At this time I am not going to go into a detailed explanation of my training methods and protocols. But the baisc explanation of it is this -

You lift "x" weight and we are told it takes two days to recover - fine.
You lift "x10" weight and not it takes a little linger to recover say 7 days.
Again this is okay becasue we have evidence from a number of university studies that show the optimal growth time of a muscle is 7 days in standard weight lifting.

Now lets us avance this thoery a little more.
You lift "x1000", the body will need additonal recuperation time. I chart and test each of my clients and determine optimal recovery times - they get stronger, they get bigger, they lift more, they need more time off. Some need up to 56 days between same bodypart workouts. I need about 30 in mine and it took me a year to get to that level.

Now as for 5 minutes... it takes only 7 seconds to stimulare new muscle tissue and growth. 5 exercises by 7 seocnds each give us 35 seconds of actual exercise performed. Inculde warmup, positional correction etc. and you get a 5 minute workout.

I don't even disucss my personal protocols on my webiste, (by the way thank you for the kind words on that). The reason being it gets very complex and when you see some of this stuff on paper it look fine - but when you try it in the gym its a whole new story.

I won't discuss my personal training protocols on this thread any further (because I am working on the book and DVD, and not Oprah now - bigger than her - how about an endorsement from Tony Robbins? ), but if you would like more info, feel free to pm me. On a sidenote this isn't new science here - i'ts been done before, from martial artists like Bruce Lee , to guys like Mike Mentzer, the legendary bodybuilder. I just advanced those same principals.

Oh and thanks to everyone who chimed in before I got the chance -I do really appreciate that. Thank you.

Dragan

empirix wrote:

C'mon if it was that easy - the man would be on Oprah! with his new book and DVD. I am just being realistic, i'd be happy for him if it did work

It's important to note that Boru is not claiming that these people built up there level of strenght etc by doing this, only that they can maintain it.

For me, that is a telling difference and i will wait till i know more about his methods before deciding!

empirix

TBH i still have major doubts i.e. codswallop but hey i'lll wait for the book:D

On a side note - you didn't happen to bump into Mr.Quinn and have become brainwashed

Jak

Nonsense. I'm sorry but this is like something you see on an advertising channel at 3am. Quick solutions, charts and tailored science to mean you don't have to train very often. I'm not being personal here Boru, but I am strongly against the type of 'training' you are touting.

Firstly, If I train my bodyparts once a week and feel that generally I need about 6 days to recover, I guess I am at "x10" whatever this means. If you can show me how any individual can lift 100 times what I do in a 2 hour Chest session ... well actually let's put it another way - you can't. Intensity, volume, need for rest - whatever way you swing it - it just won't happen.

HIT is bad enough without advocating 5 minute sessions once a month. Whilst this approach might delay (and only delay) muscle loss for a professional athlete, your average punter will still lose ground. The caveat is - some training is better than none as long as you are not causing yourself injury.

If it takes you 30 days to recover from a 5 minute session, you have issues. If you are training a bodypart once every 56+ days you are not in training - even Mentzer was training a part every 2-3 weeks.

As for Mentzer - he got where he was by more conventional training. He shifted to HIT more than 10 years after his competitive career ended. I believe he was in it for money at this stage. Additionally Mentzer was a heavy meth user, juiced up, alledgedly drank his own urine and was institutionalised a few times in his life. He also died at 50. Great role model.

HIT training has been around a long time and has not achieved main stream success because it is not a good training approach. Fred Hatfield gives one of my favourite assessments of HIT training - quite balanced and acknowledges what it can do and more importantly the limits. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drsquat7.htm

I can back up my training approach over the last 11 years - with lifts, physique, development etc - even without much care on diet. I've trained plenty of people (never commercially) all with solid results and development and I would put any of them against a HIT or extreme HIT disciples any day.

I just don't buy it and if you look at any of the serious trainers or well developed athletes - neither did they.

JAK.

Transform

I was in a taxi the other day and after telling driver what i do i.e. PT, he said 'do your clients stop coming when you get them fit and in shape?'.

I replied - would you stop training if you had more energy, better sex drive, looked great and can enjoy life to all your capacity?

Mintenance - does not belong in my dictionary

If you are not moving forwards you are moving backwards!!!

Dragan

Transform wrote:

If you are not moving forwards you are moving backwards!!!

So go on then, where have you been? Whenever you take a break from the board it's always because of something in Miami or some other such exotic location.

Transform

Getting married in two weeks!!!

Busy getting progress with clients and will be a judge at the MR IRELAND contest tomorrow evening!!!

No its not a bodybuilding type so will cast my critical eye over the buff lads who will me mostly models!

Boru.

Hi empirix ...Nope haven't met Tony Quinn and been brainwashed...at least I don't remember it it..:eek: and thank you for keeping an open mind. When I finally finish it I'll send you a copy.

Jak I appreciate your input but I'm not touting anything here. I'm niether looking for new clients nor trying to convince anyone to buy anything. As regards showing you how to increase the intensity and and weight of your lifts sure I can, no problem. Even without using my infomercial protocol I'm quite confident I could show you a couple of new ideas and intresting ways to get even more from your workouts, and that works both ways. I'm sure you have developed some great invoations and training methods of your own that I would love to learn.

Just to clarify I don't use the HIT protocols. I don't particulary like it myself, but it Mentzer's work does have some influence on the thoery I based my protocols on, hence the montion. While were on the topic you could equally point out that Bruce Lee was an avid drug user, alledged alcoholoic and wife beater, Arnold Schwarzeneeger used large amounts of streoids to build his pyhysique as well as indulged in recreational drugs, and Kurt Angle used copious amounts of pain killers. If personal failings dictated that we write off the knowledge and skills of others then the world would accept and learn very little.

I don't see how that affects training theory, principals and scienctific analysis.

As reagrds your experience I neither question or doubt it. I think its great that you have helped so many find efficent ways of training and helped the to transform their health.

As regards serious athletes and professionals they do in fact use variations on the the methods my training is based on - and I;m willing to bet so do you. I just specialise in one small aspect of training for specific goals. I never claimed it was quick fix super solution - it's not - its bloody hard work.

All I ever claimed is that you can mantain your physique - depending on your goals, level of development etc anywhere from 3 times a week to five minutes every month or so. There is no controvesry in that statement.

Incidentally I completely agree with Transfroms statement - you should always be trying to imporve - (but I have a friend in the Mr.Ireland comp tomorrow so I don't want to get on his bad side;) ) and congratualtions on your upcoming marriage. I hope you've kept you tan in top nick.

Jak

Once again nothing personal here, but I can't agree with a few points in your post there.

Jak I appreciate your input but I'm not touting anything here. I'm niether looking for new clients nor trying to convince anyone to buy anything.

Your signature and associated website are commercial. You charge people for the subscription and you are making part of your living from this. Therefore I disagree. You should strip the sig - stick to pm's and pay to advertise on boards if you wish to do so. Posting a link once or twice is one thing, but an ongoing commercial sig is not.

Even without using my infomercial protocol I'm quite confident I could show you a couple of new ideas and intresting ways to get even more from your workouts, and that works both ways. I'm sure you have developed some great invoations and training methods of your own that I would love to learn.

Arrogance aside I really doubt I have much to learn nor have I innovated anything in my training. I try variations on a theme and modify and tweak my training a lot, but there is nothing truly radical out there that you or I can teach someone. Training and development does not need to be a complicated science - there is detail under the surface, but you don't need to understand it all to progress. Given enough time and money the average person can reach the boundaries of their physical limits with a fairly simple training plan. If I could spend my days eating resting and training I would have progressed further with diminishing returns as I approached my physical limits. It's not complicated. Genetics and personal drive may prevent you from becoming a world beater but time nutrition and rest are the biggest constraints for average trainers.

Specialist training and techniques only come to the fore when you are really at the sharp end of your progression curve.

Just to clarify I don't use the HIT protocols. I don't particulary like it myself, but it Mentzer's work does have some influence on the thoery I based my protocols on, hence the montion. While were on the topic you could equally point out that Bruce Lee was an avid drug user, alledged alcoholoic and wife beater, Arnold Schwarzeneeger used large amounts of streoids to build his pyhysique as well as indulged in recreational drugs, and Kurt Angle used copious amounts of pain killers. If personal failings dictated that we write off the knowledge and skills of others then the world would accept and learn very little.

Scwarzenegger used comparatively small amounts of steroids to today's types and for his past is a successful relatively balanced individual. I would not put smoking dope on a par with consistent meth abuse and being institutionalised for extended periods.

Bruce lee dedicated his life to physical conditioning and training - certainly much more than one bodypart per month.

Kurt Angle had a serious injury... and was a wrestler.

I have not mentioned nor suggested that there is nothing to learn from the above.

I take issue with Mentzer for the reasons I stated. His switch to HIT came 10 years after his competitive career ended and he did not become a world competitive bodybuilder by HIT training.

Now you stated that what you are doing is

not new science

and has been done before - you are just advancing

those same principals[sic]

Now given that you are also mentioning....

You lift "x1000", the body will need additonal recuperation time. I chart and test each of my clients and determine optimal recovery times - they get stronger, they get bigger, they lift more, they need more time off. Some need up to 56 days between same bodypart workouts. I need about 30 in mine and it took me a year to get to that level.

It sounds like are you are pushing an extreme form of HIT to me. How someone can possibly lift "x1000" in a session and need 56 days to recover is just beyond me... and beyond reality. Recovering for 56 days from training is not recovery - it's rehabilitation. Incidentally have you factored in rates of muscle atrophy?

Additionally, if it took you a year to get up to needing 30 days rest between bodypart sessions, what sort of training highs are you hitting in terms of lifts? How much physical development? I'm genuinely interested in what sort of results you are getting.

As regards serious athletes and professionals they do in fact use variations on the the methods my training is based on - and I;m willing to bet so do you.

In so far as we all may use gym equipment and perform compound lifts - albeit for vastly different amounts of time.

All I ever claimed is that you can mantain your physique - depending on your goals, level of development etc anywhere from 3 times a week to five minutes every month or so. There is no controvesry in that statement.

There is controversy here. The band you present - 3 times a week to 5 minutes every month or so is ridiculously wide. The latter will not maintain a physique or strength levels.

Once again this is not personal, but I do have strong views against your points and I won't let it stand on this board.

JAK.

ps - Best of luck with your wedding Dominic.

empirix

Well i am not taking sides but i'm glad somebody else finds this codswallopy, as i was questioning the saneness of a few of you.

Having said that i am using a few isometric techniques out for my legs(cause my knees sustained bad injuries, prevented from doing squats, lunges etc) and i am seeing quite a good improvement, i have combined them in with my new 6 day a week routine. I thank Boru for that, as i never heard of isometric exercises before, definitely makes a difference when combined with a weights routine. So i am kinda glad he has links on his posts.

The 5 minute thing though is beyond me and i just don't buy it.

justsomebloke

empirix wrote:

Well i am not taking sides but i'm glad somebody else finds this codswallopy, as i was questioning the saneness of a few of you.

actually most of us didn't say that we belived it or not what we where trying to say is that we aren't just going to dismiss it merits without trying it ourselves or at least look into the science behind it and case studies to see if it works.

I also think Jak as one of the forum mods is wrong to also just dismiss it without looking into detail as the techniques that boru. personaly uses(actually he says he doesn't even want it on the board which seems to me that he is forcing his personel views on the rest of us)

Dragan

Transform wrote:

Getting married in two weeks!!!

Hey man,

congrats! You strike me as being a pretty happy guy so may you find a little more happiness with that!

Jak

jsb wrote:

I also think Jak as one of the forum mods is wrong to also just dismiss it without looking into detail as the techniques that boru. personaly uses(actually he says he doesn't even want it on the board which seems to me that he is forcing his personel views on the rest of us)

There is no detail to be looked into and I'm not about to take out a subscription and buy a DVD to show that. Isometrics are not new and are something I am quite familiar with. I have used Isometric holds in my training for the past ten years.

Perhaps Boru merely overstated his claims - either way I have gone through the issues twice. Boru has always been fairly polite on the boards but that is not enough for me to let certain claims slide by unchallenged. Nice guy or otherwise I will take issue against what I believe are nonsensical claims backed by personal commercial interest.

Finally as a mod you will get my views and my moderation - if you don't like it send a letter to the admins and complain with your reasons.

JAK

Boru.

Okay in light of what has been posted here I feel I need to address a couple of things for the sake of clarification and those who are reading this post.

There are few things that I allow myself to get angry about and I am ashamed to say this has been one of them.

Jak you are of course perfectly entitled to express your personal opinions and beliefs about whatever it is you think I may or may not be doing - it doesn't matter to me and certainly will not afect my training.

What I DO object to is the insinuation that I am brining this to peoples attention for commerical gain and that it is my sole intrest.

I believe are nonsensical claims backed by personal commercial interest.

That is highly insulting.

As I have already stated I DO NOT offer this training on my webiste, nor discuss it in any detail.

I have consistently attempted to post informative and helpful posts on this forum. To take time to consider other peoples views, goals and circumstances. I then try to compose an answer that I beleive will help. I have provide detailed explanations that I feel I am qualified to give as it is my profession. You are very right in that I do train people for a living - and how well I eat is based on how well I get results. I feel that my experiecne in helping people acheive the results they want can be of use to people in this forum who want similar results.

As regards this current issue of training once a month - I mentioned it as a possability arising from the OP's question. I stand by my answer as it is both accurate, scientifically sound and practically achievable. However I have no intention of discussing that method of training in a public forum such as this where it could be misunderstood and dismissed without due consideration.

The OP politely asked for more information out of genuine intrest and I attempted to answer this. However I want to draw your attention to three lines in that post -

I am not going to go into a detailed explanation of my training methods and protocols

I don't even disucss my personal protocols on my webiste

I won't discuss my personal training protocols on this thread any further

Now your objection seems to be based on my sig - which has a link to my webiste. Prior to posting it I did check the forum guidelines and I am perfectly entitled to inculde it.

Furthermore I am proud to include it - My website has allowed me to help more people get in better shape than I have ever before. It has allowed me to show people a method of improving strength and getting fitter that may otherwise have not done so.

I recieve daily correspondance from people of this forum, and in many others courtries who have used the methods and principals outlined FREE of charge on my site to get in better shape.

I have free ebooks, exercise programs, training guides and more - I think it is a valuabvle fitness resource and many others seem to think so to, hence it is in the TOP1% of websites online.

Of the 115 fitness articles on my website - all of them are free.

Is it wrong of me to attach information like that in my sig? I don't think so.


Finally -

nonsensical claims backed by personal commercial interest.

Nothing I have claimed is non sensical. Everything I have stated is backed up by scientific fact - by my own experience and that of my clients. Your unfmailarity with these facts does not mean they are not valid.

As regards the claims being backed by commerical intrest I repeat - I have not asked, requested or encouraged this discussion. I have not tried to convince anyone to try any 5 minute maintenece program - I simply stated that without more detail from the op then answer he was looking for could not be provided.

If you wish to discuss any of your objections further I would be more than welcome to do so, but I request you do so privately either by pm or email.

I apologiose for the tone of this post and for it's nature - posts like this distract and diulte the quality of the service these boards provide. It helps no-one find a healhtier and more efficent way to live. All it it does is make for an uncomfortable atmosphere where progress and leanring give way to recrimination and accusation. I apologize to all readers for my part in producing this.

I will not be addressing the methods I have alluded to or the statements made here on this forum again. If anyone has any questions please direct them to my email, or pm me.

Sangre

The bottom line Boru is, you can't make a claim like '56 day recovery' on a public forum without being expected to back up this assertion. Especially when the statement was in reply to a poster looking for information on the subect.

I wouldn't post on the motor forum telling people I can get my VW golf to drive 300 miles/hour without expecting serious skepticism and doubt. In fact, I would pre-empt such attacks with proof. Pwon't let something slide if they think its búll**** , its a simple fact of life

As the general rule goes, don't make a claim if you're not willing to back it up.

Boru.

I understand the septicisim regarding it but very early on when I first started experimenting with these protocols I learnt that there is a certain percentage of people who will point blank refuse to understand anything that challenges their current beliefs and seem to have unlimited time and energy to spend debating these things, rather than trying them.

I don't see much point in trying to bash my head against a brick wall. Regardless of what I post here it can be dismised without first hand experience. Those who are genuinely intrested have pm'd me and asked for more info and I have provided that and will continue to do so.

logic1

Boru. wrote:

I don't see much point in trying to bash my head against a brick wall. Regardless of what I post here it can be dismised without first hand experience. Those who are genuinely intrested have pm'd me and asked for more info and I have provided that and will continue to do so.

Your claims are ****

You should be banned before you can peddle anymore of your scientology-like rhetoric to the naive masses.

-Edited comment

kwalsh000

There was no need for that Logic1. Boru. has been as nice as possible about it..fair enough you may not agree with his practices..but if other people have seen results then its their choice to keep going back to him for help, and if he does not want to list the details of his program here than thats his choice. Just accept that its a load of crap if you want, no one is saying your not entitled to believe what you want to belive but to express your opinion in such as way as in your post is very immature

Dragan

logic1 wrote:

..your claims are ****

You should be banned before you can peddle anymore of your scientology-like rhetoric to the naive masses.

To be honest , like kwalsh, i find that a little bit extreme and feel that you could have expressed yourself a little bit better. The first two are not so bad, your expressing your opinion on his work and site, work away.

The last part is nothing more than a personnal insult, and to be honest from your posting history i had grown to expect more from you as a member of boards.

- Edited Comment

TerrorFirmer

All in all, Boru has been a great help to me in the past a the cost of 0.00c...

Fair enough if you don't like his website, or believe in his methods, by all means feel free to form a logical argument but to imply he's nothing but a commercialist peddling his wares is totally false and to reduce yourself to petty insults is really low

Jak

Everything I have stated is backed up by scientific fact

I stand by my comments and will continue to do so until I see a shred of evidence and a response on your results and the techniques involved. Some people claim I am attacking the methods - I am not - none have been put forward, I am attacking the alledged results and required recovery periods based on my own training history and knowledge - because I do not believe them and see them as nonsensical. Post what you did here verbatim on any fitness forum without evidence and see what sort of a response you get.

You are not willing to post them because they may be "misunderstood and dismissed without due consideration" - yet you post 'teaser' comments about extreme recovery and results from the methods? Training and results is not a faith based excersise for me.

I am sorry you took offence, but I have nothing else to go on. As for the commerical comments - You offer online training and so forth for a fee - regardless of what bits you put out for free, you have a commercial interest in online training advice. You should not take offence at this - it's just fact.

JAK

zappb

ok cool, i mean the bottom line is, you guys Jak, and boru etc..are all here to help educate fat/unfit/skinny people etc....and you guys do this just to be nice and help out.

I have to say its very much appreciated, and as a long time lurker i've have learned alot from the forum.

Keep up the good work.