10 10 in the SB

Scotty #

.5/1 on Tribeca

[Sep 27 02:48:10] : Seat 1 : vicorpopa has $108.64 Very Loose
[Sep 27 02:48:10] : Seat 2 : Scotty has $143.50
[Sep 27 02:48:10] : Seat 3 : charleyxxx has $35.50
[Sep 27 02:48:10] : Seat 4 : broonster has $49.98
[Sep 27 02:48:10] : Seat 5 : Ajax__ has $255.18 Solid
[Sep 27 02:48:10] : Seat 6 : mr 2 big has $16.04 Loose
[Sep 27 02:48:10] : vicorpopa is the dealer.
[Sep 27 02:48:11] : Scotty posted small blind.
[Sep 27 02:48:11] : charleyxxx posted big blind.
[Sep 27 02:48:11] : Game [117216] started with 6 players.
[Sep 27 02:48:11] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Sep 27 02:48:11] : Seat 2 : Scotty has Tc Td
[Sep 27 02:48:13] : broonster folded.
[Sep 27 02:48:27] : Ajax__ called $1 and raised $3
[Sep 27 02:48:30] : mr 2 big called $4
[Sep 27 02:48:33] : vicorpopa called $4
[Sep 27 02:48:55] : Scotty called $3.50 1.Was this correct??
[Sep 27 02:48:55] : charleyxxx folded.
[Sep 27 02:48:56] : Dealing flop. POT: $17
[Sep 27 02:48:56] : Board cards [Qh Qs 8c]
[Sep 27 02:49:01] : Scotty checked. 2. Was this correct?
[Sep 27 02:49:04] : Ajax__ checked.
[Sep 27 02:49:09] : mr 2 big bet $4
[Sep 27 02:49:13] : vicorpopa called $4
[Sep 27 02:49:28] : It's your turn. POT: $25
[Sep 27 02:49:28] : 3. ?????????

RichieLawlor

I think 1st of all u should raise pre flop here (i think u have to define your hand) if you get re-raised again you know where u stand as it is you have no clue where u are in the hand.
But as you called you really have to bet this flop your most likely on front and if the OR is trapping with a big hand you will find out. even if u min raise here the OR will have to come over the top if he did trap check a big hand as he cant let 2 of you in to crack his hand.
Not a great spot to be in which is why i really recommend the pre flop re-raise

fuzzbox

Why do ppl constantly insist that "you have to define your hand"????

I prefer to define my opponents hand, and keep mine a secret.

peeko

I like the call for trying to hit a set, but thats all. I'd say you have to get away from it now.

spectre

Calling preflop is fine. You are playing your TT for set value a lot of the time. Checking the flop is your only move.

Peeko, why do you want to get away from the hand? You're getting huge odds to call when you are likely to have the best hand? The other two are described as being loose and could conceivably have anything.

With no reads, I will usually just call the 4. However if I believe that the small bet means weakness, I will raise. 24 is a good number.

RustySpoon

peeko wrote:

I like the call for trying to hit a set, but thats all. I'd say you have to get away from it now.

Agreed, two in the pot and a solid player behind. Let it go.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Gholimoli

RichieLawlor wrote:

I think 1st of all u should raise pre flop here (i think u have to define your hand) if you get re-raised again you know where u stand as it is you have no clue where u are in the hand.
But as you called you really have to bet this flop your most likely on front and if the OR is trapping with a big hand you will find out. even if u min raise here the OR will have to come over the top if he did trap check a big hand as he cant let 2 of you in to crack his hand.
Not a great spot to be in which is why i really recommend the pre flop re-raise

Pretty much do the opposite of this and you should be fine.
Reraising pre flop here is very bad play.
Your out of position for the rest of the hand and its very easy to take the pot away from you post flop unless you hit your set.
Post flop a raise is bad on that flop.
You will often get flat called which could mean both a Q or just a float and you will have no way of telling, which is which.
OP played the hand well IMO.from here just calling bets if fine. if turn brings another over card and there is action I would give up the pot or else ill be happy to go to cheap show down.

5starpool

I think TT is ahead here. How to approach it is a different matter though. I would probably call and see what Ajax__ does.

Seriously though, who bets $4 from a $12 stack into a $17 pot? Either he is a horrendously bad player or he has a Q (I think probably both). He is shortstacked enough it won't sting too much though, but with a player like that you are probably ahead often enough to take a turn card at least. If you calland Ajax__ reraises, then get the flock out of there moses.

Atlas_IRL

With a pair in a multiway pot i like to just call to disguise the hand, i'd raise with jacks and up but would vary between raising and just calling with 10's. You most likely have the best hand post flop so calling the 4 may induce him to have another stab at the pot on the turn card, if you raise and he reraises you cant call as your out of position and it will cost you alot of money to play the hand

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

Pretty much do the opposite of this and you should be fine.
Reraising pre flop here is very bad play.

Preflop reraising is fine, and you should definitely mix up your play between the two. For many reasons in poker you should have a large reraising range (well larger than AA KK anyway). There is a lot of dead money in that pot that should be won. I think a reraise here with any two cards would be good from time to time (assuming there are no really loose players and no shorstacks)

Gholimoli wrote:

Your out of position for the rest of the hand and its very easy to take the pot away from you post flop unless you hit your set.

This is not true at all. When he reraises preflop his opponents need a big hand to continue after the flop. As long as you make a normal 2/3 pot bet on any flop you will almost never be bluffed, as your opponents will be aware that AA and KK make up a big part of your range. The only note of caution is if your opponent calls your flop bet you will nearly always be beaten.

edit to add this is all IMO and I could well be wrong. Please dont sue either me or boards.ie if this advice causes you to lose money

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

Preflop reraising is fine, and you should definitely mix up your play between the two. For many reasons in poker you should have a large reraising range (well larger than AA KK anyway). There is a lot of dead money in that pot that should be won. I think a reraise here with any two cards would be good from time to time (assuming there are no really loose players and no shorstacks)



This is not true at all. When he reraises preflop his opponents need a big hand to continue after the flop. As long as you make a normal 2/3 pot bet on any flop you will almost never be bluffed, as your opponents will be aware that AA and KK make up a big part of your range. The only note of caution is if your opponent calls your flop bet you will nearly always be beaten.

edit to add this is all IMO and I could well be wrong. Please dont sue either me or boards.ie if this advice causes you to lose money

I agree with what you are saying about having a wide reraising range in NL poker.
However I still believe that your reraising range should be much tighter out of position than in position. My reraising range is pretty wide however most of that range is when im in position.
There are really not that many observant opponents out there to be able to tell the difference between your positional reraises(as in the difference between the range of hands you reraise with in different positions) .most of the observant players will just be able to tell that you have a wide or narrow reraising range and that’s about it.

Also the number and type of opponents in the hand should have an impact here.
We have a loose villain here who has a wide calling range.
We are first to act post flop and more often than not we are going to have to bet post flop no matter what and that bet has to be something meaningful.

The problem with this is the loos villain is never going to fold a better hand than yours ever so what happens is that you get him to fold all the rubbish hands and you will get a call from all the hands that has you beat (as you said your self if your flop bet gets called your almost always beat).
Add to this a tricky loose player who will decide to call your flop bet just to see what you will do on the turn and you will see that the pot will be taken from you here often.
You also said there is dead money in the pot.
How?
We have raise from solid player and a call from a loose?
How do we have dead money? a reraise here could just as well be greeted by a 3 bet from UTG.

Norwich Fan Rob

i dont like to raise the pot 4 handed out of position pre flop with TT, pretty much as Gholi says, call is fine.
Again, just calling post flop is fine here.

peeko

spectre wrote:

Peeko, why do you want to get away from the hand? You're getting huge odds to call when you are likely to have the best hand? The other two are described as being loose and could conceivably have anything.

With no reads, I will usually just call the 4. However if I believe that the small bet means weakness, I will raise. 24 is a good number.

I would consider a raise Spectre, but not a call. I probably eb too much on the side of caution in general. I like the idea of the raise though now. You will find out pretty quickly where you are.

peeko

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

just calling post flop is fine here.

why is calling good here? because of the weak bet, and weak call?

5starpool

peeko wrote:

You will find out pretty quickly where you are.

*ducks for cover*

Scotty #

Cheers for the feedback....some very good points.

[Sep 27 02:49:31] : Scotty folded.
[Sep 27 02:49:32] : Ajax__ folded.
[Sep 27 02:49:33] : Dealing turn.
[Sep 27 02:49:33] : Board cards [Qh Qs 8c 2d]
[Sep 27 02:49:37] : mr 2 big bet all in
[Sep 27 02:49:39] : vicorpopa called
[Sep 27 02:49:40] : Dealing river.
[Sep 27 02:49:40] : Board cards [Qh Qs 8c 2d 3c]
[Sep 27 02:49:52] : Seat 6 : mr 2 big has Ts Jc
[Sep 27 02:49:52] : mr 2 big has Pair: Queens
[Sep 27 02:49:52] : Seat 1 : vicorpopa has 8h 9c
[Sep 27 02:49:52] : vicorpopa has Two Pair: Queens and 8s
[Sep 27 02:49:52] : vicorpopa wins $39.06 with Two Pair: Queens and 8s
[Sep 27 02:50:01] : Hand is over.

I think I threw the hand away too easy, especially with the big odds I was getting but this is one of my biggest......no.....my biggest problem in ring games. AGGRESSION . I'm WAY too passive and I'm trying to address it at the mo but its costing me a lot of money. My agg. stats are getting better but my BB/100 are going down rapid!!

peeko

Scotty, I tried to open my game up and also fell pray to the same BB/100 plumet that you have gone though. Some of the posters here said not to get too smart with the players at the level I'm playing at(.25/.50). So I'm trying to get back to being a tight aggressive player until I build a bigger BR. When I have that I will try a more aggressive style again.

spectre

peeko wrote:

I would consider a raise Spectre, but not a call. I probably eb too much on the side of caution in general. I like the idea of the raise though now. You will find out pretty quickly where you are.

You're getting tremendous odds to call.

95% of the time you will just call and try to get to showdown cheaply. Pot control is vital in this situation and raising oop with a marginal holding with three left to act is not good.

Like I said, I will only raise if experience indicates that everyone else is weak (I would want them to fold).

peeko

I just imagine that if I'm calling 4 on the flop, then the bet is going to be increased on the turn and again on the river, and unless I hit my 10 I'm thinking my hand is no good.

I see what you are saing about getting to the showdown cheaply, but is this likely to happen often?

Scotty #

peeko wrote:

Scotty, I tried to open my game up and also fell pray to the same BB/100 plumet that you have gone though. Some of the posters here said not to get too smart with the players at the level I'm playing at(.25/.50). So I'm trying to get back to being a tight aggressive player until I build a bigger BR. When I have that I will try a more aggressive style again.

Yes but I'm not tight agg. I'm tight passive, way too passive. And now I'm caught in no mans land where I'm having a lot of losing sessions because my natural (and winning) way of play is all mixed up.



These are stats since 16/8/06 which is when I started to play ring games. I peaked at $2800 in profit but in the last 7-9 days its plumeted. (Jebus if you told me two months ago I'd lose a $1000 playing cash games in a week I'd have cried)



Post flop AF has improved dramaticly but BB/100 has halved.:(

I think confidence plays a big part in poker and confidence at the mo is zero.

peeko

Maybe take a break for a week to get your confidense levels back up. You have made a lot of money in a month in a half, maybe a break will help u realise how you made this money, your are obviously doing something right. Also 1000 seems like a lot to loose for you, so maybe you are a bit tilty.

either take a lil break or step down a level till you find your confidense again.

this helped my gain some clarity recently.

Bandana boy

peeko wrote:

I just imagine that if I'm calling 4 on the flop, then the bet is going to be increased on the turn and again on the river, and unless I hit my 10 I'm thinking my hand is no good.

I see what you are saing about getting to the showdown cheaply, but is this likely to happen often?

Unless villain has a q he is likely to slow down
remember he has no idea what is in your hand and AQ & 88 oop will flat call here a lot to

I would expect a check on turn and then a half pot bet on river from a non Q hand which we are most likely ahead of and can call cheaply enough

If he bets hard on turn and river we can fold giving credit to the queen

peeko

Bandana boy wrote:

Unless villain has a q he is likely to slow down

this is the piece of the pie that I was missing here!! makes perfect sense to call on this basis.

Sangre

Here is definitely not a spot I'd like to get aggressive in, OOP with TT in a 3/4 way pot with a mix of loose and solid players.
I think a call is fine, but you have to remember you're more than likely going to be playing for set value. Even if you're over to the flop you could still be behind. If you haven't hit the flop the best line is the one you've taken, trying to keep the pot small and controlled imo. A check call will certainly cause most villians to slow down a lot if they don't have the Q. If you get to showdown you're most likely going to be ahead but you don't want to play a big pot OOP at all.
If they're is subsequent action when a Overcard falls then you know its time to get out of there.

Norwich Fan Rob

peeko wrote:

why is calling good here? because of the weak bet, and weak call?

calling is good because u are often ahead, yet out of position and u dont want to build the pot with a marginal hand, this board needs to be reassessed after the turn card comes, and u check again.

The Snapper

Scotty # wrote:

Yes but I'm not tight agg. I'm tight passive, way too passive. And now I'm caught in no mans land where I'm having a lot of losing sessions because my natural (and winning) way of play is all mixed up.



These are stats since 16/8/06 which is when I started to play ring games. I peaked at $2800 in profit but in the last 7-9 days its plumeted. (Jebus if you told me two months ago I'd lose a $1000 playing cash games in a week I'd have cried)



Post flop AF has improved dramaticly but BB/100 has halved.:(

I think confidence plays a big part in poker and confidence at the mo is zero.

Take time out to review your HH's for that period. Sometimes results do not reflect our standard of play and possibly you will find some obviously poor decisions.

You've set out to improve your post flop aggression and stats suggest with some success, but its got to be tempered within the confines of a solid all round style.

Also, I have found expanding one's game, naturally leads to some downturn in results.

valor

This should be a very standard 3 bet preflop, only calling occasionally to mix it up

Your range crushes theirs and calling for set value is losing alot of 1010's value

Ste05

Try not to play to try and make your PT stats look more optimal. Use PT to identify weaknesses and then try and make a few adjustments and check your PT stats to see whether your adjustments have affected the stats as you would have hoped. Not sure that makes sense, but hopefully you know what I mean.

Another thing to note is that when trying to adjust to a new style or to try and impliment new moves, etc. it can throw your reading abilities off slightly, this is because people will react to you differently than they did in the past. And this can affect your win rate. It takes time to adjust to and maximise the potential your new table image, one that you might not be accustomed to.

Although a 10 Buy-In downswing in a week isn't good.

Scotty #

Cheers for the replys...

I did play a few hundred hands today with a clear head and a new outlook and I'm glad to report it was a profitable game (2x buyins)

I agree with you Ste05. I found myself trying to match stats rather than playing the way I should play. I've turned off my stats on GT+ and just have a look when I leave the table.

Back to OT.....

valor wrote:

This should be a very standard 3 bet preflop, only calling occasionally to mix it up

Your range crushes theirs and calling for set value is losing alot of 1010's value

Normally I'd only ever raise with 1010 in LP and never re-raise with it.
For those who think a preflop raise is correct here. How much should the raise be. Bear in mind the OR is a solid player who raised UTG.

TacT

Did you not find his 3xbb bet from utg a little weak? Or does he make that same raise with JJ+/AQ+ from the same position? I'd like a re-raise to $9 or $12 if you thought it was. Followed through with a 3/4 or pot sized bet postflop. You can't always worry about someone having that 3rd card from a paired board to give them trips surely?

The only way anyone will continue with the hand after this kind of preflop and postflop action is if they have that Q or pocket 8's. 3xbb prf raise from any solid player utg doesn't automatically mean they have to have JJ+ or AQ+. Solid players mix it up from time to time too, find out what's happening preflop then worry about that Q after betting the flop. The fact that Ajax already has a nice stack would leave me more inclined to re-raise him because he probably doesn't want to jeopardize those chips unless he has a monster.

It all depends on how active you have been at the table etc. but this looks like a nice spot to take it down prf or alternatively postflop with a 3/4 pot or pot sized bet to follow through from your prf re-raise.

Flat calling means you're doomed to play for set value + you're letting those big scary paint cards hit the board which means you're out of position and out of business more often than not.

Alternatively flat calling preflop and postflop is another way to go but it's a bit weak

If I had flat called preflop I would lead out on that flop personally.

Ste05

IMO there is so much money to be made just leading into paired boards on the flop (especially from the blinds, my cards are basically completely irrelevant). It doesn't even have to be a decent bet, less than 1/2 pot and normally it takes it down. And it only has to work half the time to be profitable. Nearly always it's only a Q will call or raise, (if raised you just have to use your history, table image, etc. to decide if he's making a play (A v. risky one) or has the Q, but usually you can just give it up.

Although I'm not sure I'd routinely do it in this situation, and there's probably more EV in a check. An EP PFR, 4 players to the pot and it's the Q that paired, makes this a situation I don't like.

Gholimoli

valor wrote:

This should be a very standard 3 bet preflop, only calling occasionally to mix it up

Your range crushes theirs and calling for set value is losing alot of 1010's value

this is all wrong.

RoundTower

Gholimoli wrote:

this is all wrong.

you are both wrong, but Gholimoli more so.

Gholimoli

RoundTower wrote:

you are both wrong, but Gholimoli more so.

would you care to elaborate?

RoundTower

well, you have the fifth nuts at the moment, and a hand that plays reasonably well against one opponent even out of position. If you 3 bet it say to 20, and bet 30 on any flop, this will be profitable against almost any opponent.

Calling might be better in some circumstances, the most obvious one is when the raiser's range is very tight.

But reraising here isn't "very standard" for me, but it definitely isn't "very bad play", "do the opposite of this" stuff. That's why I would say I don't entirely agree with valor, but what you said is much more wrong.

Gholimoli

See that’s the problem.
You’re not facing one opponent here.
You have a solid player raising from UTG and couple of loose callers with a much wider range.
There is 10 in the pot now .
Your suggesting to make it 20 to go.
To make this move alone profitable you’re going to have to get every one to fold here nearly 70% of the time. I don’t think this will happen.
Now say the UTG calls the 17 bet getting something just under 2:1.
The looser players behind UTG have to call 17 to win 47 and 17 to win 64 getting almost 3:1 and 4:1 each.
And you can bet if UTG calls your very likely to get at least one other call as well specially from loos players.
Against 3 other players I have to say I disagree with you that your proposed play is profitable.
I would agree that sometimes to mix up your play its ok to 3bet here but if you 3bet all the time I would think you would lose more than you win.

RoundTower

Gholimoli wrote:

To make this move alone profitable you’re going to have to get every one to fold here nearly 70% of the time.

what if you had AA? Would you still have to make them fold 70% of the time or would it be OK if you sometimes got called?

Gholimoli

RoundTower wrote:

what if you had AA? Would you still have to make them fold 70% of the time or would it be OK if you sometimes got called?

Do you think TT plays the same way as AA out of position in a raised pot against potentially multiple opponents?
Do you think you can win this often enough against multiple opponents, with a big bet on the flop after getting called?
I wasn’t suggesting that the only way this is profitable is if you win it pre-flop.
What I am suggesting that if you get called considering you will have multiple opponents ,then you will not win this often enough to make it profitable as you suggested.

Bandana boy

RoundTower wrote:

well, you have the fifth nuts at the moment, and a hand that plays reasonably well against one opponent even out of position. If you 3 bet it say to 20, and bet 30 on any flop, this will be profitable against almost any opponent.

Calling might be better in some circumstances, the most obvious one is when the raiser's range is very tight.

But reraising here isn't "very standard" for me, but it definitely isn't "very bad play", "do the opposite of this" stuff. That's why I would say I don't entirely agree with valor, but what you said is much more wrong.

this all assumes that a raise gets it heads up
If it doesnt you are looking at 3-5 player pot oop now you need to hit a t or check fold
While I agree that it is not clear cut to never 3 bet here but never 3 betting would be less of a mistake than always 3 betting