Pets and Children

Love2love

My mother always told me that animals should never be around babies and children and I always thought she said this because she was afraid of most animals. Now I understand why. Its horrific.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006440423,00.html

Nevyn

That dog was not a pet but a trained gaurd dog, trained to inflict damage.

Pets are part of the family and are trained to be gentle and carefull around children.

Love2love

Trained Guard Dog or not, it still had access to a 5 month old baby, so would you say this is down to bad parenting or a horrible accident?

Nevyn

Both, but it is hard to say were the greater blame lies with out more details.

Kashkai

I couldn't even read this news story when it was placed in front of me. I've 10 month old twins and I know they could never have a hope of protecting themselves against vicious dogs like Rothweilers.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a dog lover and I had pet dogs from when I was five years old (long time ago now). Having a dog is great for building a child's character as they learn how to look after it, feed it, wash it and clean up after it. The dog in return is a great playmate and companion - one of my dogs would walk to school with me, go home and return when school was finished - how he worked this out, I never knew.

However, I would never trust a dog around an infant or young child as the dog could get jealous of a new baby or a small child might pull the dog's tail or fur and cause it to snap at the child. My last dog was almost 16 years old when I had my first daughter. He became very jealous of the new baby and would bark and jump up on me when I was holding her. In the end, I had to give him to my parents as I didn't trust him around the baby. This was heart breaking for me as he'd been with me since I was 14 years old. However, the safety of my baby came first.

I hope to get a dog for my kids when they get old enough as its the best present any child can have and being a dog lover myself, I'll make sure they never neglect it and look after it for life.

Ickle Magoo

I agree PD & there is no way in hell I would get a rottweiller, staffordshire, pitt bull or any other breed of dog renowned for natural aggression & unprovoked attacks as my family pet or as a guard dog while I have small children. All dogs have the potential to be dangerous & I think the media sensationalises to a degree but certain breeds seem to keep cropping up, I have yet to see "Poodle mauls toddler" or "Pack of spaniels attack small baby"...I see on the news this am that a little 14month old boy is in hospital after being attacked by a rottweiller...:( Poor little thing.

Ayla

Without a doubt these dog attacks are heartbreaking and horrible accidents.

However, before we go misnaming Rottys or other breeds for their "aggressive" nature, let's not forget that people get particular breeds b/c they look tough, and then they train them to be mean. Rottys in particular are naturally very docile and lazy dogs unless they are trained to be guard dogs or have any reason to be aggressive.

My mom has a sitzu (a very small, friendly-looking dog) but I wouldn't trust her (the dog) near any child, regardless of age. In my experience smaller dogs that are believed to be harmless (because they're small & cute) can actually be more aggressive and vicious. I've been bitten by a small dog (completely unprovoked) and my *very large* dog has also been attacked by small dogs.

My heart goes out to the parents of those children who have been attacked, but I fear that many people use such attacks as a reason to generalize against larger dogs (which is usually unjustified). Each dog is different and it is truly up to the training and personality of each individual dog (not breed).

scrattletrap

I am very wary about dogs and cats near children.
My eldest boy is now terrified of them and with good reason. One day out walking with him and his brother, who was about a year old and in a pushchair, the younger one was wearing huge rabbit slippers. An Alsatian came running up to us and bit one of the slippers of the child's foot (luckily he only received minor scrapes) but the older one thought, as did I, that the dog had bitten his foot off (I must say one of the most terrifying moments of my life)
The owner of the dog was no where to be seen.

Ickle Magoo

Ayla wrote:

In my experience smaller dogs that are believed to be harmless (because they're small & cute) can actually be more aggressive and vicious.

True, I don't like the aggressive yappy nature of some small dogs either...some are notorious for nipping & biting...tho in fairness the likely hood of a sitzu inflicting mortal wounds is fairly unlikely & that alone would make it less dangerous.

Ayla wrote:

However, before we go misnaming Rottys or other breeds for their "aggressive" nature,

If that is the case do you know why don't we hear numerous reports of all breeds of dog attacking? Some breeds of dog were bred for the express purpose of making then more aggressive & meaner - regardless of training perhaps their attacking instincts are closer to the surface than that of other breeds? I've read numerous reports of supposedly gentle, placid family pet dogs of the breeds I mentioned turning on adults & children yet I can't recall very many regarding other dog breeds - would that not suggest there is a correlation? Perhaps not but damn sure I wouldn't let one anywhere near my kids - just in case

Nevyn

Ickle Magoo wrote:

True, I don't like the aggressive yappy nature of some small dogs either...some are notorious for nipping & biting...tho in fairness the likely hood of a sitzu inflicting mortal wounds is fairly unlikely & that alone would make it less dangerous.

Well a lot of the smaller breeds were bred to be rat catchers and to be vicious and aggressive.

The larger breeds tend to have to be trained as attack dogs.
There is a huge difference in working dogs and those that are suited to be family pets.

With the horrendus trend in puppy farms breeding pets a lot of dogs are not getting the socailation and growing up with children and being trained in how to behave.

If you are getting a dog for a pet look at what breeds a are godo with kids, can you afford the medical costs of a pet, do you have enough room and will you be at home enough to care for the pet.

Dogs need to be walked and can pine if left alone.
Cat's don't and hence prove thier superiority over dogs

You have to train children as well as to what they are and are not allowed to to animals, just because it is cute and furry does not mean it is a teddy bear.

Ickle Magoo

That's true - I got bitten by a lab when I was little for pulling it's tail but then I provoked it & at least it only bit once in warning rather than mauling me to death :eek:

Ayla

scrattletrap wrote:

I am very wary about dogs and cats near children.
My eldest boy is now terrified of them and with good reason.

Now, I believe it's good to have a healthy respect for animals and what they are potentially able to do, but to have a total fear of them is very unfortunate.

I have a very docile (but large) mutt, and he has been completely trained so that he'll walk next to us through town w/o a lead and sit outside shops without bothering anyone while we pop inside. There has been a mixed reaction to this by people on the streets, but I always find it sad when well-intentioned parents instill their fears on their children. To respect a dog is one thing, to teach the children to fear a dog is another.

True, scrattletrap's kids had a scary encounter with a dog (and I'd have been hard-pressed to get over it myself), but how is that helping your child to learn if you just then allow the mentality that dogs are bad/dangerous/mean? That's a self-perpetuating cycle and won't help the kids as they inevitably experience dogs in their lives.

I appreciate the comments made here by Thaedydal; what she's saying is completely true - dogs (just like any animal) have their natural instincts, but their behaviour is also very dependent on the training they've had. But it is also the responsibility of parents to teach their young children to respect the animal (although I don't mind if strange kids approach my dog, it's always better if they ask if it's ok first).

scrattletrap

Now six years later I don't know if he even remembers why he is scared of them, his brother isn't scared of them but he does have respect for them and wouldn't go up to every dog he sees.
Both sets of their grandparents have dogs, one big one and one small one (the smaller one is a bit more aggressive than the big one), my older boy is very jumpy even around them and he has known them since he was born (I have tried telling him that if he is jumpy that they will think he is playing and come to him, but the fear takes over, poor kid)

Ickle Magoo

Sky news have reported a little boy being attacked by a rottweiler yesterday

Nevyn

Well I have found that my youngest loves to meet new dogs and pet them.
So we have a rule she is never to pet a dog who's name she does not know.
She has to ask the ower can she pet the dog as some dogs like it some don't and the dog might be having a grumpy day or has a ouch and would not like to be petted.

She had to learn the hard way with our cat and suffered a scratch or too but they both got given out to and if some one was trying to pick me up by the ears I'd protest too.

Ickle Magoo

Thaedydal wrote:

Well I have found that my youngest loves to meet new dogs and pet them.
So we have a rule she is never to pet a dog who's name she does not know.
She has to ask the ower can she pet the dog as some dogs like it some don't and the dog might be having a grumpy day or has a ouch and would not like to be petted.

That's exactly what we do too! Tho for the poor dogs sake we have to make sure our wee lad is uber gentle..he can get a bit over-excited & I worry he'll scare the dog into giving him a nip.

Kashkai

It should all come down to the personal responsibility of the owners for the actions of their dogs - all dogs should be microchipped to prove who the owner is.

If the dog is causing a nuisance, or actually attacks someone, then the owner should be prosecuted. If people don't want to take responsibility for their dog, then they shouldn't have one in the first place.

As for the likes of Dobermanns, Rothweilers, Pit Bulls etc, these dogs should be muzzled when in public. Failure to do so should ensure confiscation of the dog and a heavy fine on the owner.

Unfortunately, nothing is ever done until some poor child or adult is savaged by a dog and then you get a hysterical outburst along the lines of "exterminate all Rothweilers" etc.

As stated in a previous post, I'm a dog lover, and I've had dogs for most of my life but I always trained them to be obedient at all times. Otherwise, they can be a complete nuisance (ever kept awake by some mutt barking all night?)

littlebug

I know a little girl who had her lip bitten off by a dog.. .an ordinary little old family mutt that had been in the family for years and known the child all her life. As far as I know there was little/ no provocation.

That makes me nervous.

Ayla

Prosperous Dave wrote:

As for the likes of Dobermanns, Rothweilers, Pit Bulls etc, these dogs should be muzzled when in public. Failure to do so should ensure confiscation of the dog and a heavy fine on the owner.

As the risk of sounding like a broken record, I may just suggest an ammendment to this comment. I agree that owners have 100% responsibility for their dog's behaviour and actions, but why should only these breeds be muzzled? I hear what everyone's saying that these breeds have a stereotype for being more aggressive, but what about all the other dogs out there who have a temper even if they're of a very docile breed? Why should Dobs & Rottys have to be muzzled while another dog may be more vicious?

But I suppose that would be too hard to enforce...there wouldn't be any standard for muzzling. Before we know it all dogs would have to be muzzled (and 95% of the muzzled dogs wouldn't need it). So it all falls on the owners to be responsible and know their dog's behaviour & tolerance well enough to know if it needs the restraint.

Nevyn

Prosperous Dave wrote:

Otherwise, they can be a complete nuisance (ever kept awake by some mutt barking all night?)

All last weekend.
The owners slept as thier bed room is at the other side of the house.
I complained and they did nothing about it.
So I loaded up the supersoaker and bought some dog bickies.
The range on the supersoaker is great esp from a bedroom window.

Ayla

Thaedydal wrote:

So I loaded up the supersoaker and bought some dog bickies.

Ah, great! Haha. Dumb dog owners really frustrate me too.

Ickle Magoo

I agree Ayla, I don't think dogs should be muzzled but I do think much, much stiffer sentences for people who own dangerous dogs have to be introduced or where is the incentive for proper training & treatment of these animals? If that means jailing the idiots with savages for dogs then so be it...unfortunately in a lot of cases no-one realises (or they chose to ignore) the obvious dangers until the dog has killed or maimed

greenkittie

In this case i'd say the fault lies with the idiot who left the window of their babys room open when these dogs guarding the roof beside where the baby is were about.

Ickle Magoo

I would have to question whether two rottweilers living on a pub roof is sensible animal ownership & whether leaving a baby on such premises is wise in those circumstances - afterall the dogs need food, a window must be opened to gain access to roof, there is always the possibility...:(

mjffey

Ayla wrote:

As the risk of sounding like a broken record, I may just suggest an ammendment to this comment. I agree that owners have 100% responsibility for their dog's behaviour and actions...

I agree, but parents are 100% responsible for their children. When I was 4 I wanted to play ponyride on our neighbours terrier. He didn't like it of course and bit me just above my eye. I'm now 47 and still have the scar, but did my parents blame the dog? No, I got told off, because I was doing something I shouldn't have done. A dog is not for pony riding or tail/ear pulling. Now, being older, I totaly agree with what my parents did then. I would do the same.

It's never the animals fault when he attacks, it might not even be the owners fault. Never leave children unattented with animals. When you do. Don't blame the animal if something happend because you weren't there and therefor don't know what the child did. An animal never attacks just like that.

Ayla

Mjffey - I agree that parents are also 100% responsible for the actions of their young children, and they are therefore required to ensure their children are taught properly. It's unfortunately sometimes the parents who don't take this responisibility seriously who then blame the animal, and I'd imagine society as a whole is more prone to also blame the animal.

No one ever wants to endure an attack, and we are always sympathetic to the victims. This may sound crude, then, but why weren't the adults protecting the infant in this horrible tragedy? Why were the dogs allowed access to the baby? I truly feel for the parents and family of this baby, and I'm sure they're dealing with guilt as well as grief, but perhaps we can all use this as a lesson for ourselves as parents.

iguana

I think one of the biggest problems with dog-owners is that people don't choose the type of dog they want properly. Anyone getting a dog should research different breeds, what their personalities are like and what they were originally bred for. Dogs that were bred for hunting and killing or aggression should be avoided. Farm working dogs like shepherds and retreivers make the best pets in my experience, as long as their owners can take proper care of them.

They are highly intelligent and easily trained and generally find it easier to accept their place as the omegas in the pack. A dog needs to know that the adults in the family are alpha and the children are beta and that they come last.

We had border collies and my mum used to do childminding work from home. So they dogs would be used to our family and then all of a sudden a new toddler would be introduced. But they never once showed jealousy or snapped at the kids because they had been trained to respect that humans came first.

greenkittie

iguana wrote:

Farm working dogs like shepherds and retreivers make the best pets in my experience

One of the most grumpy dogs i ever knew was a retreiver, you can't determine a dogs personality solely on its breed.

iguana

greenkittie wrote:

One of the most grumpy dogs i ever knew was a retreiver, you can't determine a dogs personality solely on its breed.

Of course you can't, their upbringing and training also plays a huge part in their personality. However dogs that have been bread for hundreds of years to herd sheep or collect game without attacking or eating it, are going to be naturally less aggressive, than those who have been bred to fight and kill.

And the fact that they have spent generations being bred to follow orders and work for their owners makes them easier to train.