Ace to the King

spectre

Tribeca 1/2NL, both villains have been well behaved, not much histry though.

Villain 1 180
Villain 2 130

Villain 1 opens for 9 UTG, villain 2 calls in MP, folded around to me on
the BB, I make it 38 with AK, both villains call.

Flop comes:

A 4 8 two spades (115), Everybody checks

Turn is a King, I check Villain 1 bets 45, Villain 2 folds, I call.

River is a blank. Pot is 205 and villain 1 bets 95. Call or fold?

Comments on other streets welcome.

ianmc38

Are you joking? This isn't even close to a fold, even if he shows you a set of kings.

spectre

ianmc38 wrote:

Are you joking? This isn't even close to a fold, even if he shows you a set of kings.

What do you think villain is betting on this river? It cannot be a bluff

marius

spectre wrote:

Tribeca 1/2NL, both villains have been well behaved, not much histry though.

Villain 1 180
Villain 2 130

Villain 1 opens for 9 UTG, villain 2 calls in MP, folded around to me on
the BB, I make it 38 with AK, both villains call.

Flop comes:

A 4 8 two spades (115), Everybody checks

Turn is a King, I check Villain 1 bets 45, Villain 2 folds, I call.

River is a blank. Pot is 205 and villain 1 bets 95. Call or fold?

Comments on other streets welcome.

Did you check the river initially?

This looks awfully like a set to me - im probably folding. The 95 looks like it wants a call. Tough situation - I might make a crying call here some of the time.....

I'd probably lead the flop btw - maybe for 50 ish....

Dr_Colossus

The preflop re-raise is questionable given your position but not terrible. As played why check the flop when you hit your A? You're giving a free card to the flush draws and if you were hoping for a check raise then either player is not going to bet without a big hand.
Again you check the turn after hitting top two pair, why? Ok villian 1 bets $45 into a pot of $115 and villian 2 folds. With the pot now $160 why not check raise this time to something like $145? Your check call here was horrible as you gain no information and have no idea where you stand.
River brings a blank and you check again. If you put villian 1 on a busted flush draw then that's not too bad as he may bluff the river giving you a chance to gain extra $s. If you put villain 1 on either an A or K then you're loosing alot of value and chances are he will check the river behind. Were you afraid he had a set of As or Ks or something?
Given your flop and turn play I would have pushed the river hoping he thinks you've a busted flush draw and will call with either A or K. As played call river and never fold here.
Biggest mistake in the hand was checking the flop as you gain no information on the other's holdings

El Stuntman

jaysus spectre, this is bad all the way (even by my standards)

you go mad PF and then check all streets with TPTK and then TTP???

tell me you were hammered at the time or that you were Villain 1 or something....

ianmc38

On the river is the villain all-in? Would he 3-bet KK preflop? Why can't he make this bet with AQ or AJ? Your hand looks like QQ/JJ. Checking a flop with an A after a large reraise oop often represents KK. Why not bet the flop?

On the river you're getting 3-1(whoopsy) to call. I'd need alot of info on the villain before folding.

careca

Dr_Colossus wrote:

As played call river and never fold here.

Best advice. Anything else is 'give up poker time'.

Bandana boy

It is a fact of life that if you re-raise to 19 BBs pre flop with AK while having less than 100 BBS you are going for broke if you hit

Fold is never an option raise is if he had more chips as this could easily be AQ and to be honest i think if our friend had other than set of KS you would have heard something on flop

valor

preflop is fine
bet the flop
bet more on the turn
push the river

as played, uh..call

spectre

Dr_Colossus wrote:

With the pot now $160 why not check raise this time to something like $145? Your check call here was horrible as you gain no information and have no idea where you stand.

I disagree, check-raising here is very bad as you will only be called when you are behind.

Bandana boy

spectre wrote:

I disagree, check-raising here is very bad as you will only be called when you are behind.

i dont believe that to be true
Any other two pair and a range of TPs plus some flush draws will call you here on 1-2

careca

spectre wrote:

I disagree, check-raising here is very bad as you will only be called when you are behind.

I think you are giving players way too much credit. Maybe its just me but I have seen thousands of players at this level who would call with AQ, AJ, sometimes any A. And certainly A4 and A8 would call. And you'll get the odd plonker calling with his flush draw. IMO, this is definately not a case of only being called when behind. Too tight, I think.

got there before me bandanna

gosplan

I would have jammed the turn and saved myself the tricky decision. I do suck though.:D

ianmc38

Spectre yor hand is so under represented postflop that this is an autocall.

BigCityBanker

BCB says lay down................

"I can dodge bullets baby! I can dodge bullets":cool:

Ste05

ianmc38 wrote:

Spectre yor hand is so under represented postflop that this is an autocall.

my thoughts exactly, the % of bluffs/ value betting with weaker hands in this spot make it a profitable call IMO

TacT

instacall like lightning

El Stuntman

yo Spectre, are you still on your negative variance downswing thingy as this really doesn't seem anything like the hands you've posted when you were winning?

peeko

Spectre raised from 9 to 38 with AK OOP.

What would everyone else do with AK in this position to a raise?

spectre

ianmc38 wrote:

On the river is the villain all-in? Would he 3-bet KK preflop? Why can't he make this bet with AQ or AJ? Your hand looks like QQ/JJ. Checking a flop with an A after a large reraise oop often represents KK. Why not bet the flop?

On the river you're getting 2-1 to call. I'd need alot of info on the villain before folding.

I don't know if he would 3-bet KK preflop. I agree that my hand looks like QQ/JJ but I think he almost never has AJ and seldom does he have AQ either. If I check the flop and he has one of these hands, he is almost cetainly going to bet.

I agree that my hand is very much under-represented but I still believe that the vast majority of the time, the villlain will show down AK at best.

fuzzbox

peeko wrote:

Spectre raised from 9 to 38 with AK OOP.

Its about pot sized, so is a good number.

As for the hand - I dont mind checking every now and then if its heads up - but its not - so I would bet ... in the region of 90 on the flop.
Then I would shove the turn if I got called.

Hectorjelly

Your getting 3:1 with top 2 on the river, the only thing that beats you is a set. (Who has to have checked the flop despite it being ace high and containing a flush draw). Instacall

I would bet the flop.

spectre

El Stuntman wrote:

yo Spectre, are you still on your negative variance downswing thingy as this really doesn't seem anything like the hands you've posted when you were winning?

I've made back almost half my losses so hopefully I'm back on track. Blog update in the pipeline.

I know I could've played this hand better, and that I pretty much have to call since I under-represented my hand but I really thought I was behind here. I called anyway and he tabled AA.

I'm interested to know what people think of my flop check. My reasoning is that by betting, KK and lower pairs will probably fold. I check so that AQ will bet, I also have a better chance of making money from KK on later streets if I check the flopped Ace.

BigCityBanker

refer Phil Hellmuth

"I can dodge bullets baby! I can dodge bullets" :eek:

peeko

fuzzbox wrote:

Its about pot sized, so is a good number.

As for the hand - I dont mind checking every now and then if its heads up - but its not - so I would bet ... in the region of 90 on the flop.
Then I would shove the turn if I got called.

Is the main purpose of the bet to take it down then and there? And assuming you make it 38 and don't hit the flop, whats your next move? Continuation bet, or is it depending on who you are up against?

Bandana boy

spectre wrote:

I called anyway and he tabled AA.

.

There is not a lot you can do when AA doesnt 3 bet into you pre flop other than hope you miss the flop

I think once you made the 19BB oop raise pre your going broke on any a or any K flop you are hoping AA pushs pre and your are being called by QQ-77 or idiots with a weaker ace

You should lead flop here imo as you would probably lead if you missed and we all like playing the bet with nothing check with a hand guy.

Gholimoli

Few things about this hand:

1.when you raise like that preflop what sort of flop are you hoping for?

2.as others have said when you check the flop your saying that you hate that A. this will make any one there with a decent A thinking they are ahead and hence will make them value bet.

3.again as others have said your hand is hugely under represented with the way you have played it. This encourages actions from hands such as TP and lesser two pair than yours.

4.why aren’t you leading the flop or the turn with flush draw out there and also with a hand that is very likely to get action from lesser hands?

5.you have to call the river bet because of the reasons given by others.

spectre

Gholimoli wrote:

Few things about this hand:

1.when you raise like that preflop what sort of flop are you hoping for?

2.as others have said when you check the flop your saying that you hate that A. this will make any one there with a decent A thinking they are ahead and hence will make them value bet.

3.again as others have said your hand is hugely under represented with the way you have played it. This encourages actions from hands such as TP and lesser two pair than yours.

4.why aren’t you leading the flop or the turn with flush draw out there and also with a hand that is very likely to get action from lesser hands?

5.you have to call the river bet because of the reasons given by others.

1. The raise is only slightly more than pot so not as mad as everyone is making out.
Ideally I would take it down now but I'm not too unhappy to get heads up with one of them.

2. Precisely, they didn't bet the flop, this causes be to believe that they probably do not have AK/AQ/AJ. Their most likely holding is now a pocket pair.

3. I don't believe that either villain will have two pair here.

4. I should've bet the flop. The turn however is an absolute disaster card for me, I am now behind KK as well as AA and I now have no chance of getting any money from smaller pairs.
I can only bet the turn for value against the worst kind of opponents. I have no evidence that either of them are that bad. If I bet this turn I can't see myself being called by anything that I beat. Like I say, I don't think either of them has an Ace.

5. agreed.

Bandana boy

spectre wrote:

1. The raise is only slightly more than pot so not as mad as everyone is making out.
Ideally I would take it down now but I'm not too unhappy to get heads up with one of them.

2. Precisely, they didn't bet the flop, this causes be to believe that they probably do not have AK/AQ/AJ. Their most likely holding is now a pocket pair.

3. I don't believe that either villain will have two pair here.

4. I should've bet the flop. The turn however is an absolute disaster card for me, I am now behind KK as well as AA and I now have no chance of getting any money from smaller pairs.
I can only bet the turn for value against the worst kind of opponents. I have no evidence that either of them are that bad. If I bet this turn I can't see myself being called by anything that I beat. Like I say, I don't think either of them has an Ace.

5. agreed.

you are playing a better class of opponents than i have ever met on tribeca 1-2 then

peeko

spectre wrote:

1. The raise is only slightly more than pot so not as mad as everyone is making out.

just for clarification, I wasn't suggesting that the bet was mad, I'm just trying to gage the reason why you made that raise so I can become a better poker player. I find AK a tricky hand to play.

I like the raise to push people off the flop, but never know whether a continuation bet is the correct move when it doesn't hit.

spectre

peeko wrote:

just for clarification, I wasn't suggesting that the bet was mad, I'm just trying to gage the reason why you made that raise so I can become a better poker player. I find AK a tricky hand to play.

I like the raise to push people off the flop, but never know whether a continuation bet is the correct move when it doesn't hit.

I will often just call the raise oop with AK, sometime I like to raise, particularly if my opponents fold too much. Raising enables you to take it down there and then which is good.

Against calling stations (most players call too much), there is more money to be made from hitting the flop and betting for value.

Here are a few good threads about continuation betting that should help:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=304821&referrerid=59211&highlight=continuation+bet
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054940408&referrerid=59211&highlight=continuation+bet

peeko

cheers for the links

AmarilloFats

I like the PF raise alot.
As has been said I prefer you to lead aat this flop, and get all in on turn.

Wots UTG PFR% like???
If it's less than 8% I might prefer a call Preflop.
Effective stacks are 90BB.. you have top two, you've under rep'd your hand, don't fold.