N7 Tales

Drax

Last Friday heading down the N7 I saw the most appalling driving I have seen in a long time.

There was a small red car (Seat Arosa or similar) in the leftmost lane. A articulated lorry began an overtaking manouver and moved into the middle lane of the road near the Citywest exit. I was about 8:30 in the evening and traffic was relatively heavy. As the lorry overtook the car its indicator came on as the car was halfway down the trailer. My mouth hit the floor when the truck began moving back into the leftmost lane with the car still beside it. The car had to suddenly swerve into the hard shoulder and hit the brakes. The truck carried on oblivious. As I was in the leftmost lane the truck was now ahead of me but the person driving the small car must have been in shock and then tried to rejoin the N7 by moving back into my lane. It was either put the foot down time or hit the brakes hard. As I accelerated, the small car came into my lane causing me to move right and come fairly close to a car in the middle lane.
Now is it just me of is it that difficult for lorry drivers to judge the length of the trailer. I am aware that when lorries overtake one another they will flash the lights to signal that it is safe to move back in. I dont think his actions were deliberate but I am still gobsmacked at his stupidity. Luckily it all ended ok but it could have been a bad accident. Gave a nice loud honk as I passed him. If the person driving that small car is reading this, then I hope you are ok.

I shall reserve ranting about idiots in the middle lane on this road and save it for another thread!! :mad:

the_batman

I am afraid the N7 is not a motorway.

Anan1

A moment of inattention is all it takes..

NeMiSiS

Did the car he was overtaking accelerate, as the truck driver went to overtake ? M50 two days ago, overtaking lane.. farting along about 45mph, decided to.. undertake.. slowly.. irresposible I know.. but there was a guy with a jeep and trailer sitting in the overtaking lane with a quque of cars behind him slumped back into the seat oblivious to the ****ing world.

Big Big Big eductaion needed on how to.. 'use' 'the big roads' 'the big roads'. Oh and also how to 'make progress' rather than take off at traffic lights and take 11 hours to get up to the posted speed limit.

TK

Drax

the_batman wrote:

I am afraid the N7 is not a motorway.

There. I changed it just for you. :rolleyes:
Would you like to correct my spelling mistakes also?

alias no.9

Drax wrote:

As I was in the leftmost lane the truck was now ahead of me but the person driving the small car must have been in shock and then tried to rejoin the N7 by moving back into my lane. It was either put the foot down time or hit the brakes hard. As I accelerated, the small car came into my lane causing me to move right and come fairly close to a car in the middle lane.

When you saw the truck's indicator going on, you should have braked then. To try to accellerate past the small car at the last second was reckless on your behalf. Of course the other dirver was going to try to correct their position on the road it was bad enough the truck driver forcing them almost off the road without you compounding it by trying to keep them there, what did you expect?

Drax

NeMiSiS wrote:

Did the car he was overtaking accelerate, as the truck driver went to overtake ?

NeMiSiS, Nope... he stayed at a constant rate. This is what confused me. If there had been a previous 'altercation' back down the road maybe.
But I just think the lorry driver was half asleep.

the_batman

No, there is no need to correct your spelling. I am quite good at reading words phonetically.

Drax wrote:

I shall reserve ranting about idiots in the middle lane on this road and save it for another thread!! :mad:

Could you let me know what you mean about the "idiots in the middle lane of this road"?

I don't understand what your point is?

Drax

alias no.9 wrote:

When you saw the truck's indicator going on, you should have braked then. To try to accellerate past the small car at the last second was reckless on your behalf. Of course the other dirver was going to try to correct their position on the road it was bad enough the truck driver forcing them almost off the road without you compounding it by trying to keep them there, what did you expect?

Alias. How are you too. I see you are once again trying to give me a hard time. The car was fully on the hard shoulder and slowing down because of the lorry's actions. I would imagine that the driver was in a slightly distressed state and thought of immediately merging back into the traffic. Had I decided to brake I would have had 2 or 3 cars into the back of my car (As I said, traffic was heavy). Seeing as the front of my car was almost at the rear of his, my instinct was to accelerate out of the situation. It was as I was performing this manouver that the car in question moved back into my lane without looking.

Anan1

NeMiSiS wrote:

Did the car he was overtaking accelerate, as the truck driver went to overtake ? M50 two days ago, overtaking lane.. farting along about 45mph, decided to.. undertake.. slowly.. irresposible I know.. but there was a guy with a jeep and trailer sitting in the overtaking lane with a quque of cars behind him slumped back into the seat oblivious to the ****ing world.

If you're going to undertake, do it fast and use the horn. You never know when they'll come in on top of you.

Drax

the_batman wrote:

Could you let me know what you mean about the "idiots in the middle lane of this road"? I don't understand what your point is?

Sorry - this comment should maybe have been reserved for a different thread. 3 lanes. Keep left rule. Yet the amount of 'idiots' who seem drive along this road in the middle lane is unreal. I like to stick with the 'keep left' advice but end up having to jump 2 lanes to overtake these people and move back to the far left. On occasion I have undertaken them. Is 3 lanes too much to understand. Even on a relatively empty road there will be people doddling along in the centre lane.

alias no.9

Drax wrote:

Alias. How are you too. I see you are once again trying to give me a hard time. The car was fully on the hard shoulder and slowing down because of the lorry's actions. I would imagine that the driver was in a slightly distressed state and thought of immediately merging back into the traffic. Had I decided to brake I would have had 2 or 3 cars into the back of my car (As I said, traffic was heavy). Seeing as the front of my car was almost at the rear of his, my instinct was to accelerate out of the situation. It was as I was performing this manouver that the car in question moved back into my lane without looking.

Your braking should have happened before you even knew what the driver of the car in front would do. What if he didn't pull in and had just braked hard to let the trailer pass him and the trailer of the truck had clipped the front of his car and spun him around in your path. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I'm just pointing out that while you're blasting the actions of the truck driver, and deservedly so, your own weren't exactly exemplary. Don't worry about the traffic behind you in a case like this, it's their responsibility to be able to stop behind you.

Ay Cee

Driving down the N7 yesterday morning. A lorry was over taking for 3 MILES at 60 miles an hour while the lorries in the other lane were doing 59.7.

This does my fnckin' head in!!!

prospect

the_batman wrote:

Could you let me know what you mean about the "idiots in the middle lane of this road"?

I don't understand what your point is?

I assume he is referring to the fact that you are supposed to drive in the leftmost lane at all times. Unlike the many idiots who sit in the middle lane even thought there is no traffic on their left.

the_batman

prospect wrote:

I assume he is referring to the fact that you are supposed to drive in the leftmost lane at all times. Unlike the many idiots who sit in the middle lane even thought there is no traffic on their left.

The OP said something about having to "jump 2 lanes to overtake these people and move back to the far left", so I don't think he was talking about people sitting in the middle lane when the left lane was clear.

On three lane dual carriageways the left lane rule does apply, but drivers are allowed to stay in the middle lane if that lane is moving faster than the left lane.

The thing that annoys me is when people sit in the overtaking lane, and even worse when they sit in the overtaking lane but refer to is as the "Fast Lane"!!!

prospect

the_batman wrote:

On three lane dual carriageways the left lane rule does apply, but drivers are allowed to stay in the middle lane if that lane is moving faster than the left lane.

The thing that annoys me is when people sit in the overtaking lane, and even worse when they sit in the overtaking lane but refer to is as the "Fast Lane"!!!

Oh, i agree.

However, on the N7 it is very common to see people sitting in the middle lane, when there is no obstruction on the left lane. In fact, I regularly drive in the left lane with my CC set to 100KM/h and pass out everyone in the middle and right lane? People seem to have an aversion to the left lane, even though in many instances they would be quicker if they stayed in it.

Stark

I think the 3 lane system is very confusing. I'm never sure if the lane on the far left is a driving lane or a turning lane (I don't drive on it often enough to memorise the layout). If there was a sign that pointed out the point at which the 3-lane proper stretch began and ended. (the same way you sometimes have a sign indicating the start of a dual carriageway when it's confusing).

Anan1

the_batman wrote:

The OP said something about having to "jump 2 lanes to overtake these people and move back to the far left", so I don't think he was talking about people sitting in the middle lane when the left lane was clear.

On an otherwise empty 3 lane road, if the OP was driving in the left lane and wanted to overtake someone sitting in the middle lane then he would have to jump two lanes to pass them on the right, no?

prospect

Anan1 wrote:

On an otherwise empty 3 lane road, if the OP was driving in the left lane and wanted to overtake someone sitting in the middle lane then he would have to jump two lanes to pass them on the right, no?

Strictly speaking, yes and no.

If you are doing a constant speed (under or on the limit) and are in the left lane when you catch up on a vehicle in the middle lane travelling slower, you are entitled to maintain your speed and road position.
However, if you are in the middle lane, it is illegal to move to into the left lane, pass the other vehicle and move back into the middle lane, as this qualifies as overtaking on the left, which is illegal in most situations.

SonOfPerdition

prospect wrote:

Strictly speaking, yes and no.

If you are doing a constant speed (under or on the limit) and are in the left lane when you catch up on a vehicle in the middle lane travelling slower, you are entitled to maintain your speed and road position.
However, if you are in the middle lane, it is illegal to move to into the left lane, pass the other vehicle and move back into the middle lane, as this qualifies as overtaking on the left, which is illegal in most situations.

Hmmm, thats interesting, i never heard that before, i always assumed it was only legal to undertake when traffic was slow moving. Are you sure about your statement above? I don't mean to be picky and i hope you are correct, but can you provide a source for your claim? Does it apply to motorways too?

SOP

Anan1

prospect wrote:

If you are doing a constant speed (under or on the limit) and are in the left lane when you catch up on a vehicle in the middle lane travelling slower, you are entitled to maintain your speed and road position.

I don't think you are. My understanding is that you are only allowed to overtake on the left in such circumstances in slow-moving traffic. The definition of slow-moving traffic is uncertain, but I would imagine it's nowhere near the motorway speed limit.

prospect wrote:

However, if you are in the middle lane, it is illegal to move to into the left lane, pass the other vehicle and move back into the middle lane, as this qualifies as overtaking on the left, which is illegal in most situations.

Agreed. Of course, on an otherwise empty road one wouldn't be in the middle lane in the first place.

testicle

undertaking implies a change of lane, as does overtaking. If you are driving in the left-hand most lane, and you come across a sunday driver in the middle lane, it is not required to cross the entire carriage way into the third laneto overtake them.

Wishbone Ash

Anan1 wrote:

on an otherwise empty road one wouldn't be in the middle lane in the first place.

Plenty of drivers seem to think one keeps right on an empty road. I regularly begin work at 4am so I am often on the M1 at 3.30am. I regularly have muppets in front of me who will not move over to a deserted left lane.:(

Alun

testicle wrote:

undertaking implies a change of lane, as does overtaking. If you are driving in the left-hand most lane, and you come across a sunday driver in the middle lane, it is not required to cross the entire carriage way into the third laneto overtake them.

That's your opinion. I'd like to see you argue that point in a court of law.

Anan1

testicle wrote:

undertaking implies a change of lane, as does overtaking.

No it doesn't, it just means to pass.

testicle wrote:

If you are driving in the left-hand most lane, and you come across a sunday driver in the middle lane, it is not required to cross the entire carriage way into the third laneto overtake them.

It is. With the exceptions of the circumstances outlined in the ROTR, it is illegal to pass on the left.

LostinBlanch

Bad driving on the N7 isn't a new phenomenon. True story from about 1992. I was driving a van load of glass to Naas and was going uphill towards the Poitin Still, was only going about 45mph. This was when cars wanting to leave Rathcoole for Dublin from the Poitin Still end had to cross 3 lanes to head east to Dublin.

So there's me in the middle lane, doing 45. About 50 yards ahead of me is a petrol tanker pulling in to Rathcoole and about 20 yards behind me was one of those big Dan Ryan Rental trucks. A bloody liteace zips out across the road in front of me without any warning I couldn't see him because of the tanker, but he couldn't see me either. Obviously he got pissed off waiting and just put the foot down. Anyway, I stood on the brakes and the van pulled slightly to the left, missing the liteace by about 1 ft, no exageration. I would have clipped the back of his van leaving him facing the rental truck head on!

Unbelievable driving, absolutely unbelievable. I wonder how many people he has hurt in accidents he caused since.

prospect

Firstly, I don't think UNDERTAKING is actually a word. afaik it is referred to as overtaking on the inside/left.

From the Rules Of The road:
• Normally you must overtake on the right but overtaking on the left is permitted -
• When the driver ahead has moved out and given a right turn signal and you intend to go straight ahead or turn left.
• When you intend to turn left and have signalled this intention.
• Where traffic is moving slowly and the vehicles in the lane on your right are moving more slowly than the traffic in your lane.

LANE DISCIPLINE
The normal "keep left" rule applies. This means that you stay in the left hand lane unless you are overtaking. In a three lane carriageway you may stay in the centre lane while there is slower moving traffic on the inner lane. A vehicle drawing a trailer should not use the right-hand lane of a carriageway with three or more lanes except in exceptional circumstances.

EDIT:
Also, point of note,
Over the last few weeks, I have passed speed checks at the Kilteel turn-off with not reaction from the Gardai.
Also, I recently passed a garda car in the middle lane queue, who obviously thought I was on a winner and he changed into the left lane and happily trundled along behind me.

OVERTAKING
Overtake on the right only, unless traffic is moving in queues and the traffic queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are.

The section about overtaking describs exactly the situation I encounter most evenings. The middle and right lanes are almost full of traffic doig 80 to 90 km/h, so I stay in the left lane and pass them at the legal limit, 100km/h.

Also note, those vehicles should not be in the centre lane unless the left lane is occupied by slower moving traffic.

Regarding the definition of overtaking, the dictionary simply defines it as "To pass another vehicle", however I believe it is the act of changing out of lanes that is considered overtaking.

Anan1

prospect wrote:

Firstly, I don't think UNDERTAKING is actually a word. afaik it is referred to as overtaking on the inside/left.

It isn't, but it sums up what we're talking about pretty well, we all know what is meant, and it's far easier to type than overtaking on the inside.

prospect wrote:

Overtake on the right only, unless traffic is moving in queues and the traffic queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are.[/I]

The section about overtaking describs exactly the situation I encounter most evenings. The middle and right lanes are almost full of traffic doig 80 to 90 km/h, so I stay in the left lane and pass them at the legal limit, 100km/h..

Don't get me wrong, I pass on the left in such situations too. This is illegal though, as I can't see any judge accepting the description of streams of traffic doing 80km/h as a "queue".

prospect wrote:

Regarding the definition of overtaking, the dictionary simply defines it as "To pass another vehicle", however I believe it is the act of changing out of lanes that is considered overtaking.

Overtaking is passing, pure & simple. If you change lanes and don't pass, you're not overtaking. If you don't change lanes and do pass then you are overtaking. Changing lanes is changing lanes, and overtaking is overtaking.:)

prospect

Anan1 wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I pass on the left in such situations too. This is illegal though, as I can't see any judge accepting the description of streams of traffic doing 80km/h as a "queue".

And what would you think he would define a full lane of traffic travelling below the speed limit as?

Also,
What would you think he would require to be defined as a queue.

AFAI am concerned, the situation on the N7 is exactly what is described in the exemption, ie. A queue of slow moving traffic.

SonOfPerdition

prospect wrote:

From the Rules Of The road:
• Normally you must overtake on the right but overtaking on the left is permitted -
• When the driver ahead has moved out and given a right turn signal and you intend to go straight ahead or turn left.
• When you intend to turn left and have signalled this intention.
• Where traffic is moving slowly and the vehicles in the lane on your right are moving more slowly than the traffic in your lane.

this is how i remember the rules regarding undertaking. Then again, where does it define the speed of "slowly moving traffic"? Is going 1kmh below the permitted speed limit deemed as movign slowly? hadn't thought about this before, but it is open to interpretation.

Regarding the definition of overtaking, the dictionary simply defines it as "To pass another vehicle", however I believe it is the act of changing out of lanes that is considered overtaking.

:eek:
eh? But the definition you provide makes no mention of lane change! I've never seen someone quote the definition of a term and then not accept it. Thats a novel approach!

Anan1

prospect wrote:

And what would you think he would define a full lane of traffic travelling below the speed limit as?

Exactly that, a full lane of traffic travelling below the speed limit.

prospect wrote:

Also,
What would you think he would require to be defined as a queue.

A queue is a line of waiting people or traffic, such as you'd find at the toll booths on the M50.

blastman

A queue doesn't have to be static.

Anan1

blastman wrote:

A queue doesn't have to be static.

A queue is a line of vehicles or people waiting for something, for example to pay at a toll plaza. Of course queues do move, but to suggest that cars moving at 80km/h are "queueing" is self-evidently ridiculous.

blastman

I would say they're queueing in the usually vain hope of getting past the twat at the front if they eventually decide to pull over.

testicle

Anan1 wrote:

A queue is a line of vehicles or people waiting for something, for example to pay at a toll plaza. Of course queues do move, but to suggest that cars moving at 80km/h are "queueing" is self-evidently ridiculous.

So, what's the maximum speed of a queue then?

The law states traffic moving slowly, it does not mention a queue...

prospect

Anan1 wrote:

A queue is a line of vehicles or people waiting for something, for example to pay at a toll plaza. Of course queues do move, but to suggest that cars moving at 80km/h are "queueing" is self-evidently ridiculous.

Slightly strong remark Anan1.
I would say it is a matter of opinion, as I would consider several cars moving at a constant speed which is below the subjects speed, (assuming the subject is driving at a legal speed), to be a queue of slower moving traffic.

I would also suggest that this would be the case if you were brought to court, if you are lucky, you will get a judge who shares my opinion and lets you off. If you are unlucky, you will get a judge who shares Anan1's opinion, and prosecute you.

I must say, I take your statment above as a personal insult, as I would indeed suggest that cars moving at 80km/h are "queueing".

Stevo11

I'm from Rathcoole originally and use to catch a bus from Poitin Stil on Sunday nights to College... we used to go up about 30 mins early just to watch the crashes ...

LostinBlanch wrote:

Bad driving on the N7 isn't a new phenomenon. True story from about 1992. I was driving a van load of glass to Naas and was going uphill towards the Poitin Still, was only going about 45mph. This was when cars wanting to leave Rathcoole for Dublin from the Poitin Still end had to cross 3 lanes to head east to Dublin.

So there's me in the middle lane, doing 45. About 50 yards ahead of me is a petrol tanker pulling in to Rathcoole and about 20 yards behind me was one of those big Dan Ryan Rental trucks. A bloody liteace zips out across the road in front of me without any warning I couldn't see him because of the tanker, but he couldn't see me either. Obviously he got pissed off waiting and just put the foot down. Anyway, I stood on the brakes and the van pulled slightly to the left, missing the liteace by about 1 ft, no exageration. I would have clipped the back of his van leaving him facing the rental truck head on!

Unbelievable driving, absolutely unbelievable. I wonder how many people he has hurt in accidents he caused since.

Anan1

prospect wrote:

Slightly strong remark Anan1.
I would say it is a matter of opinion, as I would consider several cars moving at a constant speed which is below the subjects speed, (assuming the subject is driving at a legal speed), to be a queue of slower moving traffic.

I would also suggest that this would be the case if you were brought to court, if you are lucky, you will get a judge who shares my opinion and lets you off. If you are unlucky, you will get a judge who shares Anan1's opinion, and prosecute you.

I must say, I take your statment above as a personal insult, as I would indeed suggest that cars moving at 80km/h are "queueing".

It was not my intention to insult you personally, and for that I apologise. As I have already said, I undertake regularly myself, given the lane discipline in this country I simply don't see any other way. As has been said previously, to the best of my knowledge the law in any case refers not to queues but to slow-moving traffic. My guess would be the intended meaning is traffic moving at a maximum of 20-30km/h, although as you've said we'd really have to see what the judge says. I do, however, find it somewhat disturbing that a driver could actually believe overtaking on the left to be legal at speeds upwards of 80km/h, when it is clearly stated in the ROTR that this is not the case.

Seth Brundle

Anan1 wrote:

The definition of slow-moving traffic is uncertain, but I would imagine it's nowhere near the motorway speed limit.

According to a Garda Sargeant friend if the car is not in effectively rush hour traffic then the driver is liable to get pulled!

jimmycrackcorm

In such situations where Iovertake on theleft (i.e.muppet in front illegally stays in right lane ), I stay in the left lane then.

I'd wonder how it would be classed if said muppet was doing 30Kph on the M50. If there was no traffic in front of him (obviously) then there'd be no queue and technically the left lanerswould have to maintain the same speed also.

prospect

Anan1 wrote:

It was not my intention to insult you personally, and for that I apologise.

No worries.

To further elaborate on your point regarding the strict definition of a queue, “a line of people or vehicles waiting for something" e.g. a toll bridge, it seems to me to be self contradictory:

If traffic is only a queue when waiting for lights to change, or a toll or an accident to clear, then surely when they move (at any speed) they are no longer waiting/queuing, but they are actually progressing towards their destination?
So, the same principle can be applied when a line of traffic is moving slowly, albeit, there is no obstruction ahead, but the physics of the line of traffic are the same? Therefore it is no more/less, safe/illegal?

I would imagine it has deliberately been left vague, as my POV and Anan1s both seem logical and acceptable. This way, a Garda can use their discretion/mood to decide if the subject should be subject to prosecution.