mean shall inherit the action

crazy monkey

Hi All,

I am in a bit of a spiritual/philosophical quandry at the mo - have just being reading the newspapers and watching the news and could use some feed back...
In these times of conflict would the world be better or worse off with or with out religion/philosophies...

Think about the following:
christian vs muslim, muslim vs jew and the conflicts that religions has caused...the crusades, the holocaust and the situations in the balkans, africa and the middle east.

Philosophies/ideolgies:
communism vs capitalism
consumerism vs the spiritual
end of timers vs the environment

Ponder this question and get back to me? If this all seems to deep and non martial arts based remember that philosophy has always been at the heart of the warrior...
Bushido and Chivalry put great emphasis on the spiritual and philosphical aspects of the warrior...
Islam created the first assassins to the best of my knowledge...to deal with crusaders...they were known as hassashi...as they smoked alot of weed before setting out on their tasks...and that is where the term assassin originated...

Now if I have offended anyone -apologies...and here is a little treat to make up for any offence caused - please enjoy and more importantly reply.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQf4Hk2wtmc

crazy monkey

The title for my last post was:
the meek shall inherit the action!!!
cheers

The Shane

Evolution requires conflict.

Late night beeb 2 documentary on the other night pointed out that in the west evolution has all but stalled whereas in areas with disease and poverty and war there is natural selection.

If there was a completely ordered society where everyone was given enough and ailments were cured, redudant mutations would scupper us all.

I had more typed but it's hard to argue this corner without sounding like a nazi.

The Bored One

The Shane wrote:

Evolution requires conflict.

Late night beeb 2 documentary on the other night pointed out that in the west evolution has all but stalled whereas in areas with disease and poverty and war there is natural selection.

If there was a completely ordered society where everyone was given enough and ailments were cured, redudant mutations would scupper us all.

I had more typed but it's hard to argue this corner without sounding like a nazi.

You're right brother, you never know who might be listening. The meeting shall take place in the local beer hall...

Roper

Wow Shane, you survived The Night of the Long Knives? Impressive! How was Argentina?:D

Nothingcompares

Monkey, you been reading dan brown novels?

crazy monkey

Hi all,

I have seen similar programmes and read many articles that suggest the same ideas. That you espouse, so trust me I do not think you are a Nazi.
Natural selection/Darwinism [whichever term you use] is a well known idea...
The idea of an order society is not what I was suggesting, since that idea would turn the world in Equilibrium.
I am suggesting that our thoughts and beliefs are a major and historical source of conflict and if we erased these "beliefs" would be be able to avoid mass conflict...
We would still have political/medical/sexual ways to die...But ideas lead to actions...whcih leads to violence....or is YODA wrong saying that fear leads to the dark side????

droc

Yes, but it's impossible. Human nature is such that man needs someone or something to hate and kill. As a species we believe that we've advanced the world with technology and philosophy etc but in fact we have been on a path towards the eventual destruction of our own kind and of the planet. The funniest thing about it is that most people don't give a **** or are in total denial.

The human race is a hideous thing, we are all selfish and evil!

DROC

Colm_OReilly

It's not really the religion or the philosophies, it's an attachment to them that becomes a problem.

Problems usually arise when the artefact becomes more important than the thing it represents. For example in martial arts; in asian culture, bowing is a sign of respect. Okay, fair enough. But then people get caught up in bowing, how to bow, etc. instead of just having respect.

Of course, the problem of how you present yourself/are perceived is usually addressed instead of just being.

Similiar with religion, the cross or synagoue (sp?) is just as physical anchor to the religious belief, but people focus more on defending that than the belief.

Now, on a practical level, what can you do? Well, you can't control anyone else's actions, and enforcing the belief that others shouldn't have believes is ridiculous, so allyou can do is control yourself, control what's inside your boundary. A simple suggestion is to take steps to ensure all your actions are win:win and you do things out of love, rather than fear.

Colm

Roper

Okay, I get it lads. So, if I walk by a guy who looks a bit weaker than me, its okay to kill him? Right, got it. I'm off out... "the internet made me do it" sounds like a good defence claim to me.:)

On a note, most civilised countries had some sort of Eugenics policy before World War 2, including the USA. Then it became politically untenable. Not for the Norwegians however, they were still sterilising mentally ill people right into the 1960s.

Don't worry lads, mother nature will sort us all out in the end. She always does.

Dragan

As Colm was already saying, it's really an interpretation of things that things get complicated.

Religion in and of itself is bad, it's just that some people choose to interpret it all wrong, and assume that what they are doing is right, because they are on the right side, right?

For my money, humans have very much overcomplicated themsevles, and give themselves far too much credit. Were really just a bunch of confused animals who have shackled the soul and the spirit with all sorts of moral issues and bull****.

However, we are what we have made ourselves and must endeavour to climb above our baser instincts.

I am , for whatever reason that i cannot quite lay my finger on, naturally and consistently wary of the overly religious. I don't care what they believe in, thats all good, just don't credit everything that happens to whatever god you happen to believe in.

Take some control for youself, make things happen.

Colm_OReilly

I'm surprised we haven't got a post from Papa Stokes yet!

When we were Paleo, running around the fertile cresent, multiplying and killing of herds upon herds of animal, we didn't have this religion malarky as we know it now.

The answer is always Paleo.

Oh! and go read Guns, Germs & Steel - entertaining and informative!

smacl

crazy monkey wrote:

The title for my last post was:
the meek shall inherit the action!!!
cheers

And here was me thinking you had the confucians down to win it all in the end (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_the_Mean), ah well.

For me its all forms of factionalism, whether it be jews and muslims, Man U vs Liverpool fans, or endless nagging between TMA heads and MMA heads on this forum. God bless aetheism in all its heavenly glory.

back to lurking :rolleyes:

The Shane

The great thing about paleo was that you had a naturally enforced eugenics. We had not advanced so far into our inbreeding, any untenable mutations as a result of our inbreeding didn't make it to breeding age. And in an age where family planning and conscientous decision making were unheard of, "good" characteristics were supported (ie. if you were naturally predisposed to being fertile, your genes spread more, if you were able to withstand a harsh winter your genes would survive.) Conflict was inbuilt in all these societies, tribal warfare and even before that individuals fighting over limited supplies of food produced the necessary conflict.

Our current society, removes conflict, it keeps stupid and unhealthy* people alive and allows them to reproduce. It supports an ethos where couples wait longer and longer to have children which increase the risks of defects in the child.

*As an asthmatic I realise that I should probably have died if I had a serious attack and had no specialist medication and so on. Haemophiliacs (sp?) previously died early in life, with modern medications they can enjoy a long and relatively healthy life. Don't get me wrong, that's cool. But this introduces for the first time children born of parents with haemophilia.

Evolution is a lot like bodybuilding, the muscle (or society) will adapt to the loads placed on it. If you sit on a couch and watch tv (create a welfare state with healthcare capable of levelling the playing field for the sick and so forth) then your muscle will atrophy.

The pessimistic conclusion to this is that some catastrophe, possibly manmade will violently decrease numbers in the human population and the whole dance will begin again.

Individually we are weak, statistically we are invincible.

Ein Reich or in the words of Genki Sudo - we are all one. May have missed the point.

Garibaldi5

This guy puts some thoughts on religion quite nicely

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOIImOoYM

Dyr

no he doesnt lol.."people still believe in god..we should be frightened"

Roper

Well now the Nazis among us have been outed and I've tipped off the Israelis, good job Crazy Monkey.

The trouble with this argument is that its very easy to get it wrong. I mean read Nietzsche and you might say hmmm, interesting philosophical argument about man's personal quest for enlightenment. Whereas Hitler read Nietzsche and said "oh, kill everyone I think is weak, I get it".

Essentially, much of the doctrines we live by today are opposed to nature. I don't have to work for food (by hunting, scavenging etc.), I just pop down the road and buy. If I get sick, I don't die, and I don't allow the illness to run its course and strengthen my immune system and those of my progeny, and their progeny, and their.....

Dyr

Roper wrote:

The trouble with this argument is that its very easy to get it wrong. I mean read Nietzsche and you might say hmmm, interesting philosophical argument about man's personal quest for enlightenment. Whereas Hitler read Nietzsche and said "oh, kill everyone I think is weak, I get it".

Has some been watching Ricky Gervais?

Roper

Bambi wrote:

Has some been watching Ricky Gervais?

Eh?

Colm_OReilly

Ricky Gervais, in his show "Politics" made references to Hitler's love of Nietzsche. It went a little something like this

Hitler: Hey, loved your book
Nietzsche: Thanks
Hitler: Man and Superman, brilliant, ... kill all the jews
Nietzsche: What!?
Hitler: you know, you know?
Nietzsche: Where did I say that?
Hitler: I thought it was the subtext.
Nietzsche: No!
Hitler: Oh...
Nietzsche: Well, how many have you killed?
Hitler: Err...about six million
Nietzsche *shocked*
Hitler: Right, I'll stop. Are you staying for dinner?
Nietzsche: Yeah, but I'm afraid to tell you about my next book
Hitler: What is it?
Nietzsche: The gypos, do we really need em?

Dyr

youtube ftw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUH1H-b-N5o

FiannaGym.com

I think there are 2 important elements to this.

First is the notion of evolution, which unfortunately conjours up images of "becoming better" when in fact it should conjour up images of "becoming more suited to". This is a problem paricularly in the west, this notion that we have "evolved" furhter, more quickly, were more advanced etc. This applies particularly (currently) to the notion of "Freedom of Speech". Persia had freedom of speech and so did we, we lost it so did they, they'll get it back, we'll loose it... It isn't a march of advancement just one of change.

The next element is "clouding the issue". We are guitly of it here, we discuss Religion, attachment to it, martial arts' cult nature, capitalism and communism. There is one consistent trend in all of these that is the real issue...

The paternal structure of cultural institutions. Again to use the example of freedom of speech. The pope made some silly comments and "The muslim world" were up in arms, the vaste majority of the muslim world are not well informed into the socio-political details of the west (no more than we are about "the muslim world") as such it isn't Joe Hassan who desides to burn effigies but rather a religions leader who isights it (paternal). Just like a political leader insights marines to go to Iraq to die, or a martial arts masters clouds reality with 'how to bow' etc.

It is this paternal nature that needs combating... In short, shaking off the shackles of paternal modes of living. How can this be done? Well I think the notion of "Cultural relativism" (see laso Franz Boas) is the key, it frees use (even if it is only temporerily) from our cultures preconcieved notions... to the point of abandoning our congnition (even if it is only for judgements). Logic is a cultural construction, science too, even maths. As such we cannot judge another culture by our own cultures standards.

Interestly, religion, or more specifically, the paternal fathers of religions allow us to shake of these paternal shackles, by providig everyone with the power (knowledge) to live a good life - religion manages to hijack this. So following Christ or Mohamad isn't enough, we must obey certain rules, taboos and attend certain rites - virtually all of which come from a non-spiritual source.

To further illustrate this point...
The notion of should we have "religions or philosophies" applies quite nicely to our post-enlightenment culture. In Asia and budhist countries this notion of a creed a collective can subscribe to is mute. Individual spiritual persuits don't fit this "religions" idea. Just like numbers above 3 don't exist within groups in the Amazon. Freedom of speech, may be viewed as an essential human right but when Muslims burn effigies on the streets is that too, not freedom of speech. More importantly is the fact that media organisations, by abusing freedom of speech legislation, can present almost any truth they want so we are uninformed about the world... sound familiar? Of course it does, Sky news is no different to the Immams that "inform" the muslim world.

As martial artist I am sure we know that we are responsible fro oursleves, as such we should turn our attention towards ourselves, judge not lest ye be judged.

That is obviously all IMHO

Peace

Roper

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Ricky Gervais, in his show "Politics" made references to Hitler's love of Nietzsche. It went a little something like this

Hitler: Hey, loved your book
Nietzsche: Thanks
Hitler: Man and Superman, brilliant, ... kill all the jews
Nietzsche: What!?
Hitler: you know, you know?
Nietzsche: Where did I say that?
Hitler: I thought it was the subtext.
Nietzsche: No!
Hitler: Oh...
Nietzsche: Well, how many have you killed?
Hitler: Err...about six million
Nietzsche *shocked*
Hitler: Right, I'll stop. Are you staying for dinner?
Nietzsche: Yeah, but I'm afraid to tell you about my next book
Hitler: What is it?
Nietzsche: The gypos, do we really need em?

Ha! I went to see that show in The Point! Don't remember that!

I see what you were saying now Bambi. I make point about Hitler liking the work of Nietzsche, you say aha, thats what Ricky Gervais said.... sort of. I say pardon me... Colm explains. Oh the fun we have. Of course Hitler's admiration for the superman principle is well known outside of comedy circles, but never mind all that eh?

crazy monkey

Hi All,

I loved your hitler conversation but on behalf of the mel brooks estate I must inform you that conversation was cut from the original version of the producers and you must cease and desist from using it further.

Springtime for Hitler and G-E-R-M-A-N-Y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Please sing!]...

I am liking where this thread is going.
Very well spoken arguements lads/ladies...