Schools homophobic policys on antibullying

Chillwithcian

[Discuss] What should be done???

Stark

What homophobic policies are you referring to?

Chillwithcian

Stark wrote:

What homophobic policies are you referring to?

The fact that schools have none and what should be done about it

UU

Well, BelongTo are currently launching a campaign tackling this problem which is supported by the National Equality Board or something. It's forbidden to discriminate anyone in school based on their gender, race, creed and sexual orientation. If a member of the staff does it, they can be fired. Any form of discrimination is not allowed in schools.

spurious

It is not true to say 'schools' have no policies on this. Some have - perhaps yours has/had not.

There is a seminar this week in TCD called 'Tackling Homophobic Bullying in Schools'. It will be interesting to see which schools consider it an important enough issue to send staff to. Two people are going from our (CDVEC) school.

abetarrush

was there not another thread on this the other day?

Theres no need for homophobic bullying policys

wha about the people who get picked on for how they look, where they're from etc

Wha makes you think gays are so special they need they're own policy?

All schools have bullying policys

bullying is bullying

They're hardly gonna say
"Oh wait, your a victim of homophobic bullyin, you have to go to that queue"

Endymion

Abe, why do you post here? Are you trying to prove something. You certainly have this one track mind wrt anythign non-straight.

There are specific policies on Racism, Sexism, religious intolerance ect. Just about anything where someone can be discriminated there are policies for. Now some schools, and business don't implement every policy, as specific policies tend to be brought in when a need is identified.

Homophobic bullying is often seen as requiring a specific policy for the following reason

1) There can often be allot of well meaning mistakes when dealing with issues surrounding homophobia. Homophobic bullying is very complex, and there are many issues to be dealt with wrt both the victim and the bully.

2) No everyone is up to date with all the issues, and a policy can often act as an invaluable guideline for teachers/employers/who ever, on how to deal with problem situations when they arise

3) A policy can help you recognise problem situations before they get out of control.

4) A policy lets everyone know where they stand on an issue. An employee or a student knows exactly what they can expect, and an employer or teacher knows their duties.

One blanket approach does not fit every situations. Different problems require different solutions and attitudes. That is why specific policies wrt bullying are a good idea.

For example, a standard approach to bullying in my school was to bring in the parents of all the parties involved plus the student, and trash out a way forward. Perfectly reasonable approach. However can you see why that approach probably wouldn't be suitable in situations of homophobic bullying? A child may find themselves having to defend his/her sexuality. What would the parents of the victim think? Growing up, most the the homophobic crap was target towards guys he weren't gay. Just a bit quiet and shy. Imagine the fear of coming forward? People always think "where there's smoke theres fire". Thats going to be hard on a kid.

Also, as a final note, it's not uncommon for companies and schools to turn the problem on to the victim, after all, if they acted a little more straight, they wouldn't be getting so much hassle.

Chillwithcian

abetarrush wrote:

was there not another thread on this the other day?

Theres no need for homophobic bullying policys

wha about the people who get picked on for how they look, where they're from etc

Wha makes you think gays are so special they need they're own policy?

All schools have bullying policys

bullying is bullying

They're hardly gonna say
"Oh wait, your a victim of homophobic bullyin, you have to go to that queue"

So are you saying indriectly bieng gay is wrong? Or that we shouldnt include a anti homophobic policy thats intergrated with a anti racisim policy in the general anti bully rules? Thats illogical...

Rev Hellfire

I believe he's saying that it’s covered under the existing anti-bullying framework and that he doesn’t see the need to differentiate the specific motivations behind the bullying.

eth0_

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I believe he's saying that it’s covered under the existing anti-bullying framework and that he doesn’t see the need to differentiate the specific motivations behind the bullying.

I kind of agree. Most gay people want to be treated with the same respect as hetero people, and I believe in this day and age all bullying is acknowledged and an attempt made to deal with it, whether it's because a child is overweight/very smart/or just simply because they're gay!

What is the benefit of adding another word to a school's anti-bullying rules? It's not like kids read these things...and they know they're doing wrong when they bully, for whatever reason.

abetarrush

ChillwithCIAN wrote:

So are you saying indriectly bieng gay is wrong?

wtf? Where did u get that from??? And how is some "indirectly gay" ???

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I believe he's saying that it’s covered under the existing anti-bullying framework and that he doesn’t see the need to differentiate the specific motivations behind the bullying.

Exactly.

All I'm sayin is that Bullying is bullying. And at the end of the day, it all involves psysical and verbal abuse

theres loads of things people get bullied for

Size / Weight
Name
Race
Orientation
Family situation
and MANY more........

If a school wants to have a policy specifically for Homophobia ive no problem with that, but why have one specifically for that, and not specifically for everything else on the list?

And like eth0_ said, gay people, esp younger ones, want to be acknowledged as the same as any other person

A policy like this would just single them out, and IMO, make them feel worse

Endymion

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I believe he's saying that it’s covered under the existing anti-bullying framework and that he doesn’t see the need to differentiate the specific motivations behind the bullying.

When someone breaks the law, do you believe that there is nothing to be gained from examining the reasons why they did it? It is generally accepted as a good idea to look at the causes of anti social behavior, and crimes (when appropriate) are differentiated based of motivation rather then just the consequences.


Abe You haven't replied to a single point I made.

All I'm saying is that Bullying is bullying.

You're wrong. Believe it or not Queer students face different problems to heterosexuals, which go past the usual "bullying because your different". Also Queer students are far more liked to come up again a system that a) Blames them for the bullying b) Is indifferent to it and c) Is actually the source of the bullying.

Yes, being on the receiving end of bullying, there is very little difference between being bullied for the colour of your skin, Sexuality, gender. The effect of bullying may be similar, but the causes and therefore the solutions, of each case of bullying is often unique to that particular situation.

You claim that because you can't have infinitely many policies for every possible case, then every case of bullying should be treated, well why can't there be a middle ground? I would expect a school to develop a policy on any bullying trend they discovered.

Rev Hellfire

Carnivore wrote:

When someone breaks the law, do you believe that there is nothing to be gained from examining the reasons why they did it? It is generally accepted as a good idea to look at the causes of anti social behavior, and crimes (when appropriate) are differentiated based of motivation rather then just the consequences.

When someone breaks the law their motivation is examined, but you don't legislate for each possible motivation. For example if a robbery is committed, they are prosecuted for the crime of robbery, not robbery because they're a drug addict, robbery because they are cash strapped, robbery because...
So it is with bullying, the offence is bullying, the reasoning is immaterial since the end result is the same (although relevant when it comes to treatment).

I’m curious as to why you would assume queers get bullied for reasons which go past "bullying because your different". I would imagine that’s exactly why a queer would be bullied. But maybe you’ll expand on the reasoning behind that statement.

Rozie

The problem is the minute you say "oh it's covered under our vague definition of bullying", it's forgotten about entirely. You need to remind people exactly WHAT constitutes bullying.

Endymion

Rev Hellfire wrote:

When someone breaks the law their motivation is examined, but you don't legislate for each possible motivation. For example if a robbery is committed, they are prosecuted for the crime of robbery, not robbery because they're a drug addict, robbery because they are cash strapped, robbery because...

Legislation and punishment aren't the only places in which motivation can/Is taken into account when it comes to crime. It's taken into account when dealing with the underlying social problems as well as rehabilitation.

Also again with the "legislate for each possible motivation". I'm not saying that. Homophobic bullying is a problem and it is one which affects quiet a few people. Most have seen it. That's suggests its a candidate for a specific policy, Especially since the existing frame work is often unsuitable for the reasons I outlined above, and you ignored.

I’m curious as to why you would assume queers get bullied for reasons which go past "bullying because your different". I would imagine that’s exactly why a queer would be bullied. But maybe you’ll expand on the reasoning behind that statement.

In my personal opinion, allot of homophobic bullies feel threaten by homosexuals not because of the differences, but rather because of the similarities. Because of what they see of themselves in their victims.

Then you have the whole bravado side of things where it's seen to be "manly" to pick on the gay kid. There can be huge per pressure to join in, for fear of being accused of being gay yourself. Don't underestimate this. The stigmaistation attached to being a victim of homophobic bullying can be very damaging.

and then there kids who aren't even gay, and are bullying. It's one thing being bullied for something you are, it's another thing altogether when you're being bullied because of something you're not.

Thats just a few things I've come up with, I'm sure educational professionals could come up with allot more.

Rev Hellfire

Rozie wrote:

The problem is the minute you say "oh it's covered under our vague definition of bullying", it's forgotten about entirely. You need to remind people exactly WHAT constitutes bullying.

I think rozies post here to degree highlights the difference in we have on the subject. To me the importent element is the actual act of bullying, but (and I hope I'm not putting words in your mouths here) with rozie and carnivore the reason for the bullying is the importent element.
I personally think that it is a mistake to seperate the reasons, all bullying is equally bad and such be treated equally. Once you seperate it out you run the risk of creating a scale of abuse (for want of a better word).

Endymion

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I think rozies post here to degree highlights the difference in we have on the subject. To me the importent element is the actual act of bullying, but (and I hope I'm not putting words in your mouths here) with rozie and carnivore the reason for the bullying is the importent element.
I personally think that it is a mistake to seperate the reasons, all bullying is equally bad and such be treated equally. Once you seperate it out you run the risk of creating a scale of abuse (for want of a better word).

Why should the effects of something be the sole critieria for the solution. That is what I disagree with you on. If you don't understand the root cause of a problem, you can't find a solution. That is a fundmental of nature.

spurious

If people are interested, I can post a summary of whatever wisdom we receive at the seminar in TCD this week.

Endymion

go for it

abetarrush

Carnivore wrote:

In my personal opinion, allot of homophobic bullies feel threaten by homosexuals not because of the differences, but rather because of the similarities. Because of what they see of themselves in their victims.

Then you have the whole bravado side of things where it's seen to be "manly" to pick on the gay kid. There can be huge per pressure to join in, for fear of being accused of being gay yourself. Don't underestimate this. The stigmaistation attached to being a victim of homophobic bullying can be very damaging.

and then there kids who aren't even gay, and are bullying. It's one thing being bullied for something you are, it's another thing altogether when you're being bullied because of something you're not.

Thats just a few things I've come up with, I'm sure educational professionals could come up with allot more.

Again, you're bein specific

Nearly all Bullyin is because of probs the bully has

Anger they need to take out on someone

or as u said, slaggin someone cos they see somethin about themselves they dont like in that person

Seems like you're sayin its cos all the bullies that slag gays are closet cases.

EXAMPLE: I'm tanned, so ive grown up knowin im slightly different
[but i dealt with it in a positive way]

but lets say I was gettin a hard time for bein different, i'd prob lash out at "some lil fag" to make meself feel better
but its not cos im gay, its just cos im tryin to shift the hurt

Do you know what im on about???

But in my eyes its all the same, and im not sayin ur wrong, im jus sayin i dont see the point. I understand ur view, but im not convinced

Personal Q:

Has this ever happened to you?????

Sangre

Someone is bullied for being different so the best way to help them is to get the teachers to treat them differently?

Ok Billy, you were being bullied because you're gay. Thats fine Billy, there is nothing to be ashamed of, you're no different from everyone else...ok, so go stand over with the other gays who were bullied. Everyone else form an orderly line over here.....dodgeballs ready!

Anyway, my experience of watching people being bullied is its their personality that gets them picked on, the 'reason' is just away of isolating them from everyone else and getting them ganged up on.
Hey, lets pick up on the quiet/over confident kid, oh yeah hes black, lets remind him of that. He can't play with us now etc., etc.,

Basically, if a guy is the best sports player in the year (or whatever) he more than likely isn't going to get stick about being gay (much). Its a totally different matter if he is the quiet guy who sits alone.

Ergo, a different policy not only singles the victim out, I also think it is pretty immaterial.

Endymion

Abe, yes there are people who just want to lash out, and anyone will do. I don't deny that. However that is not the case in every situation, if it was, a standard approach could be adopted to all cases of bullying. My entire point, which you seem to have missed, is that there are many motivations for buying, besides the typical "angry youth". Some of these motivations will specifically relate to homosexuality, and as such a specific policy would be sensible.

Sangre wrote:

Someone is bullied for being different so the best way to help them is to get the teachers to treat them differently?

This initial premise is flawed, or at the very least in dispute. I outlined an example above of how bullying was/is handled in my secondary school. Do you think this approach is a good idea for homophobic bullying.

PS thank you for pointing out that popular people don't get bullied.

Abe, I was bullied in primary school. They picked the fact that I was much taller then the rest of the class as a focus point, but really it was mainly because I reacted.

Sangre

I still fail to see how a separate policy is in any way beneficial. I only see the advocation of separation and exclusion where it is unnecessary.

Popular kids don't get bullied. It's not the specific trait that causes the bullying. The trait is just used to bully and isolate them. Therefore the trait is immaterial in the policy and policing of bullying.

Schools know when to use discretion when it is needed e.g the child is poor/gay/disabled. You are against a blanket policy on bullying, yet advocate a blanket policy on gay bullying? How could any policy possibly cater for the individual needs in any specific case of bullying? Well, they can't. Common sense and teacher discretion is needed in all cases of bullying, whether the issue is the bully's borken home or the victim's skin colour.

Bullying isn't worse just because the victim is gay, nor is it better. It just is.

Endymion

Sangre wrote:

I still fail to see how a separate policy is in any way beneficial. I only see the advocation of separation and exclusion where it is unnecessary.

Who mentioned exclusion? And what does it matter if one bullying situation was handled differently to another, once they where both handled in the best possible way. There's nothing wrong with different approaches.

Sangre

There is if its *only* gay victims being treated differently.

Endymion

Sangre wrote:

There is if its *only* gay victims being treated differently.

Obviously not the case, since you have multiple policies, and every situation is potentially handled differently regardless of policy. The importance of policies is to provide a basic stucture to increase the likelyhood of the situation being resolved positively. They're not a step by step guides yea know. Often they focus on what not to do, rather then what to do.

The reason I'm so behind this idea is because I've seen teachers come out with some real ****e on a wide range of issues. I've sat through a class were a teacher ripped into us all over alleged homophobic bullying of a student. This basically outed the guy, instilled a fair amounth of resentment towards him, and ensured nobody in the class ever reported bullying to that teacher again.

Sangre

That could happen over anything, the homophobic nature of the bullying was pretty irrelevant. Same thing would happen with racist bullying with only one non-national, or with bullying over wealth with eh...one northsider.

Endymion

Sangre wrote:

That could happen over anything, the homophobic nature of the bullying was pretty irrelevant. Same thing would happen with racist bullying with only one non-national, or with bullying over wealth with eh...one northsider.

same thing could happen for allot of things, thats why there are policies.

Rev Hellfire

Carnivore wrote:

same thing could happen for allot of things, thats why there are policies.

It’s also why there aren't policies for everything, but general policies which over the broad spectrum.
In the end of the day a person is bullied because they are perceived as weak and unable to defend themselves by it physical or emotionally. The motivation is rarely hatred of a given group (although it can be), but rather an attempt by the bully to obtain power and/or acceptance within the group. The reason used is merely a tool to this end; if the victim doesn’t react to homophobic abuse they’ll quickly change the focus to something else.

the_syco

Meh. F**k the homo's, tbh. In secondry school, if someone doesn't like you, they'll find something to bully you about. It really is that simple. As for an anti-bullying thing... sounds great, but I don't see why a gay person who's getting bullied get any special treatment over someone who is gettig bullied for being fat. You want equality? How about treating all victims of bullying equally?

Endymion

the_syco wrote:

Meh. F**k the homo's, tbh. In secondry school, if someone doesn't like you, they'll find something to bully you about. It really is that simple. As for an anti-bullying thing... sounds great, but I don't see why a gay person who's getting bullied get any special treatment over someone who is gettig bullied for being fat. You want equality? How about treating all victims of bullying equally?

Who said special treatment, we're talking about different treatment.

abetarrush

Carnivore wrote:

Who said special treatment, we're talking about different treatment.

If gays geta special policy, and everyone else gets the general one, then they would be gettin special treatment

Theres no need for a gay policy, you're just makin excuses, you still havent convinced me of one single advantage

Boston

abetarrush wrote:

If gays geta special policy, and everyone else gets the general one, then they would be gettin special treatment

Theres no need for a gay policy, you're just makin excuses, you still havent convinced me of one single advantage

1) No one said special, just different.

2) It's not about the person being bullied, it's about the type of bullying

3) You seem obcessed with gays, however straight kids are also on the recieving end of homophobic bullying.

It's handling different problems differently. You refuse to see that.

Sangre

You refuse to see that the problems are in fact the same one, bullying is bullying and the 'reasons' fat/gay/black are usually immaterial.

Boston

Sangre wrote:

You refuse to see that the problems are in fact the same one, bullying is bullying and the 'reasons' fat/gay/black are usually immaterial.

Well yes. I don't agree that every single case of bullying can and should be dealt in the same way. Reasons are a significant factor.

Sangre

Well that where we're going to have to disagree. Why is that its these group don't always get bullied, why is it the quiet or over-confident ones with these attributes that get bullied?
Basically, the fat rugby prop who is the star of the team won't get slagged, but he would if he was a quiet/studious guy. Same with any other reason for them to be bullied.
The reason is not why they're bullied, its HOW.

Boston

Well I think you have inadvertaintly highlighted that theere are reasons kids get bullied. They just might not be "what it says on the tin" i.e they might be for other reasons then fat/black/gay ect. The sad truth is that it's often the case people get bullied because the bully feels they can, and thats theres no come back on them.

That said, sometimes a spade is a spade, and people are singled out because they are black, or gay, or rich or poor or whatever by people who genuinely bully them because of who they are. When that starts to happen, thats when you begin to need a different approach, because those people arn't going to be responsive to the usuall way of dealing with things.