£2/5 cash hand

Norwich Fan Rob

Crypto £2/5 cash game

UTG £1700 (complete an utter moronic donkey luckbox, reason im at the table)
Me UTG+1 £700
Button £550 (seems ok)

UTG calls, i call with Js9s, mid pos makes it 20, button calls, donkey calls so i call.

Flop come 8TQ with 2 hearts. Pot is £87.
UTG bet £5 (he always does that), I call, mid pos calls, button makes it £50, UTG call, i make it £180, they all fold except utg. (pot now about £500)

Turn is a blank, UTG checks, how much should i bet?
(pot is £500, i have £500 behind, he has lots more)

RichieLawlor

are u more likely to get a call if u push? i think so, it just seems to me that a 150 -250 bet is just begging for a call. maybe he calls an all in quicker than half ur stack.

Gholimoli

First of all I think you should raise UTG here after his bet.
When you flat call even though you are inviting players behind you to call as well but when you come over the top after that you are really ending the hand prematurely for your self.
Basically you’re announcing that you have a monster by flat calling and then reraising.
If you reraise him ppl behind you either call you with any sort of hand/draw or will drop if they don’t have hand in which case you were never really going to get paid anyway.
The key here is by raising I think your hiding the true strength of your hand better than by flat calling and then coming over the top.
Also that board is extremely draw heavy which means there are a lot of cards that can come on the turn which will kill your action but if you raise it on the flop they generally don’t give you credit for it and if a blank comes on the turn they may think they are still safe and check/call your bets.
As played I think 300 is a good bet.

p.s don’t like the call pre flop .i know you have a donk in UTG and you want to be involved in as many pots as you can with him but UTG+1 and J9 is not a position or the hand to do it with.

Hectorjelly

Raise much more on the flop so that the turn you can just push all in. When it got back to you the pot was about 200 big, you called the 50 and made it 130 more, when it should of been 250 more. Your asking people to draw out on you, and making it easy for overpairs to get away. In fact you could just push all in over the bet which looks like you dont want action.

Norwich Fan Rob

agreed gholi about the call pre, but this guy was unreal, he ALWAYS leads for £5, no matter what, cant drop much, and has no clue, i played the hand to double through him, and its the sort of hand i can do that with if i hit the flop hard, i only called the £5 originally, as i wanted the pre flop raiser to continue bet, he almost always does, and once the other guy then calls, as he almost always does, and puts 50 odd more in the pot, he then wont fold much, i know its a slightly unusual line.

UTG is bad enough to call a large bet here with Qx, or he could have a draw.

Gholimoli

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

agreed gholi about the call pre, but this guy was unreal, he ALWAYS leads for £5, no matter what, cant drop much, and has no clue, i played the hand to double through him, and its the sort of hand i can do that with if i hit the flop hard, i only called the £5 originally, as i wanted the pre flop raiser to continue bet, he almost always does, and once the other guy then calls, as he almost always does, and puts 50 odd more in the pot, he then wont fold much, i know its a slightly unusual line.

UTG is bad enough to call a large bet here with Qx, or he could have a draw.

i think your chances of building the pot with a a raise is much better than flat call v ppl who have hands that they want to play with on that flop.
again in my opinion against good players your chances of hiding the strength of your hand is better by raising as they think you may be raising with a draw etc and against bad players (such as the one your facing) you will get a call eitherway anyway .

Norwich Fan Rob

your probably right, i shoulda re raised this dudes orginal bet, im pretty sure then though that the pre flop raiser woulda folded, and this dude always leads for £5, and usually folds to a re raise if he has nothing, whereas, when u just call the £5, he almost always fires at the turn, regardless of what he had.
I did play the hand unorthodoxly up to the turn, based mainly on details reads on both the pre flop raise and the useless utg player, so ignoring that, and i agree with most of what you are saying, how much would you bet on the turn?

Hectorjelly

You have to bet over 250 in case he has a draw, and once you bet that amount (or any really) you are committed to the pot - hes not an idiot. So you should push because he may have a hand like AK of hearts, and call the 250 but fold on the river if he misses. You cant fold the hand on the river even if a heart does come so if you bet 250 you are offering him 1250 - 250

Gholimoli

Against this type of player I would prob bet 300.
Some may argue that well if his calling 300 then he would call 500 so just shove but I disagree because a decent player would act that way but there are plenty of donks out there who are prepared to draw for 300 and not 500 or are prepared to call here with a Q in 300 and 200 portions but may not like a pot sized bet here.

Norwich Fan Rob

HJ is totally correct in the above post, the correct play on the turn is a push.............i bet £320 and he called, (he has no odds to call for a heart strictly on the turn, but when he factors in the fact i cant fold to a river shove if the heart hits, he has odds)...........anyway i have to call the river, he has 4 2 hearts..............on such a draw heavy board with so much already in the pot, the best play is definitely a push on the turn i now think, and my bet of £320 on the turn, was in fact a mistake that cost me a huge pot.
Then again, he is bad enough to have a Q, so Gholi also has a point, oh well, i guess its one of those you could argue about.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

You have to bet over 250 in case he has a draw, and once you bet that amount (or any really) you are committed to the pot - hes not an idiot. So you should push because he may have a hand like AK of hearts, and call the 250 but fold on the river if he misses. You cant fold the hand on the river even if a heart does come so if you bet 250 you are offering him 1250 - 250

i doubt AK of hearts would get here like this.

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

i doubt AK of hearts would get here like this.

any heart draw, it makes no difference

Norwich Fan Rob

i was fuming at him drawing to a 4 high flush, after this hand this donk had over £2600 from an initial buy in of max £500..............i ended up staying up rather late until he finally left the table, with £600 to his name and me back in profit for the night...............i look forward to our next battle.

i was sure he had no odds at all to call the turn, but on reflection, i now see how he did have odds, with the pot commitment i brought on by my turn bet and the implied odds of the balance of my stack, and clearly i didnt have a flush draw..........so i guess it wasnt as horrendous as i first thought by him.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

any heart draw, it makes no difference

i think 4 extra outs does make difference here in general.
if we push he is calling 500 to win 1K so he is getting 2:1 and he needs 4:1 to call(if he has AK of hearts then he needs less than 4:1 i think he would need something like 2.5:1 so it does make a difference) so odds are not there.

if you bet 300 he is calling 300 to win 1K which is just more than 3:1 he still needs 4:1 with just a flush draw so he is still not getting correct odds but with AKs he is deffo getting correct odds to call.