garda mistake

tipper1

was pulled over by garda yesterday who was convinced i was on the phone when passed him going through a town he was driving squad car and followed me and pulled me in i know may be hard to believe but was actually ribbing my ear lobe at time and knew almost immediately that he would come after me. i have hands free kit and after trying to talk to this very stubborn guard i offered to take phone from kit so as to check call details as all evidence would be on phone. have rang o2 to get phone records but do not know if this will do i told guard that i could not accept charge and he replied that i would have to"fight" it/him in court can not afford this time or hassle for a guard who would not listen to reason. any advice very appreciated

Ickle Magoo

Take your phone & the O2 phone records to the guarda station & ask to speak to the Guard's superior to prove what you were trying to tell the Guard that wouldn't listen. Best of luck

get the phone record and a good solicitor, i wouldn't let him away with it.

Spastafarian

Did you get his garda number on his uniform?
If you know what station he's from you could try to explain it to someone in there (the superintendent if possible). Just have the call records etc. ready and explain that you couldn't be arsed going to court.
[edit] Oh someone else already said that - anyway it worked for me before and I was completely in the wrong, and I didn't have any proof of anything (I pulled out in front of an unmarked guard car).

tbh

isn't the onus on him to prove you actually were on the phone? pain in the arse going to court, but at a guess (especially if there was no call being made to/from the phone at the time) you should be ok.

Dave!

Once you get the phone records and show them in the Garda station, they'll hardly try and pursue it will they?

tipper1

thanks for help phone records are on way to me called into home g station after incident and said something similar but it was the attitudeof this garda that really aggrivates me i hope with all thes traffic laws that he is in the minority i def think court time might be a little more valuable than this

Oriel

Are you sure he didn't charge you for not using punctuation? That's a very serious charge if I remember correctly.

muletide

sinecurea wrote:

Are you sure he didn't charge you for not using punctuation? That's a very serious charge if I remember correctly.

Very helpful go away and annoy somewhere else.

OP Bring your records to his super and he will take care of it. The guards dont want to waste their time either and especially that of a judge. So I would presume they will let it go. Also make sure that you point out your problems with the Guards attitude and hopefully you will get an apology

Gordon

sinecurea wrote:

Are you sure he didn't charge you for not using punctuation? That's a very serious charge if I remember correctly.

Not in this forum thanks.

Darragh29

I think you might have your work cut out for you on this issue. AFAIK, the offence relates to "holding a phone whilst driving a vehicle" as opposed to "using a phone whilst driving a vehicle".

Have a look at the link below, it defineitely refers to the act of holding a phone as distinct from being in a conversation using your phone.

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=7761&lang=ENG&loc=1887

According to the law, you are commiting a offence if you plug your phone into a car charger lead or into a hands free cradle while driving, unless you figure out how to do this by not holding the phone!

Sounds like you might have a problem in court if you did not have a witness with you. Phone records would almost certainly be useless...

TempestSabre

Its worth fighting, it, I'd also send a copy of the phone records to the cop, he probably won't turn up in court. I guess it will come down to the judge and how he sees it. But you could argue, why would you be holding the phone to your ear and not making a call? If you were going to make a call it would be easier on the car kits. Why else would you go to the expense to get it installed.

Some guards really do themselves no favors.

jimmycrackcorm

A good solicitor would make the garda look very thick in court.

First he might ask the garda why would you use the phone as a handheld when you have a perfectly good car kit.

Then he might ask the garda at what speed he was travelling at when he seem to have observed you using a phone and if he was not giving due care and attention to his own driving at the time.

The final nail of course is the O2 records showing non-existent calls at the time. The solicitor could wave this at the Garda and ask him if he believes he is operating in the same time zone as the rest of us.

I'd go to court and enjoy it. Just to have some more fun, I'd bring a video clip of the car kit in action to reinforce the first point.

Villain

Phone records aren't any good to you, as someone else already pointed out all he has to do is say you were "holding" your phone.

I would try and go to his station ask to speak with him and try and explain but I wouldn't try and fight it in court.

TempestSabre

Why would someone hold a phone to their ear and not use it?

Villain

TempestSabre wrote:

Why would someone hold a phone to their ear and not use it?

Because they saw a Garda car and ended the call before it connected!

Gordon

This is probably better in Motors, if not elsewhere. Moved from PI.

The_Magoo

Which part of the phrase, "hands freekit" have most people missed here?
Bring it to court, with the phone records. Chances are the cop wont even turn up, judge will dismiss it.

HelterSkelter

The_Magoo wrote:

Which part of the phrase, "hands freekit" have most people missed here?
Bring it to court, with the phone records. Chances are the cop wont even turn up, judge will dismiss it.

And which part of the OP's "he replied that i would have to"fight" it/him in court can not afford this time or hassle" did you miss??? He can't afford the time or hassle to go to court.

Villain

I know several people who have hands free kits but still use the phone on its own, having a hands free kit proves nothing neither does phone records.

lostexpectation

couldn't you have show him recent calls made/recieved on the phone menu itself??
the guard would have to dropped it there and then

maidhc

irish1 wrote:

I know several people who have hands free kits but still use the phone on its own, having a hands free kit proves nothing neither does phone records.

If you have:

a) No record of a phone call,
b) A hands free kit installed, and
c) A garda who cannot admit to seeing a mobile phone without perjuring,

on the balance of probability it would not be possible to find the OP guilty of the above offence.

Unfortuantely it may have to come to court before the Garda in question accepts this.

Villain

If you have the sworn statement of a Garda stating that the suspect was "holding" the phone at the time he observed the suspect, its doesn't matter that phone records show no calls were made, it also doesn't matter that the suspect has a hands free kit.

I'm not for a minute saying that this is right, I'm just trying to point out what could happen.

TempestSabre

irish1 wrote:

I know several people who have hands free kits but still use the phone on its own, having a hands free kit proves nothing neither does phone records.

You're right, they only prove if he was making or recieving a call, listening to voice mail. He could have been reading his text messages, or playing games....with his ear.

Unfortunately from prior experience, never mind the shambles in Donegal, the credibility of a Guard isn't what it used to be.

fletch

If it does go to court and it's thrown out, will the OP get compensated for loss of earnings etc? I know I would be very annoyed with such a pointless/avoidable waste of time and resources.

maidhc

irish1 wrote:

If you have the sworn statement of a Garda stating that the suspect was "holding" the phone at the time he observed the suspect, its doesn't matter that phone records show no calls were made, it also doesn't matter that the suspect has a hands free kit.

But for this to happen the garda must be either blind, or lying, or both. All of which are possible, unfortunately.

TempestSabre

fletch wrote:

If it does go to court and it's thrown out, will the OP get compensated for loss of earnings etc? I know I would be very annoyed with such a pointless waste of time and resources.

You'd prefer a fine and/or points, increase in insurance etc.

fletch

TempestSabre wrote:

You'd prefer a fine and/or points, increase in insurance etc.

Did I say that?

TempestSabre

Ask a silly question, get a silly answer.

testicle

Only one problem with producing phone records... They don't show incoming calls.

alfie

Ignorance of the law is not a defence.

Section 3 (1) Road Traffic Act 2006 reads A person shall not while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place hold a mobile phone.

If you had the phone in your hand and were driving then you are guilty

tipper1

it is worrying that some feel that my evidence may not be much good if goes to court as it may be garda word against my own. i did offer garda the phone to check records and should phone was in car kit and after incident on side of road i went back to station to talk to him but he was having none of it i asked his name and if he was 100% he saw phone in my hand up to my ear. when he said he did i just said no point in talking to you so and went on my way so i know his view on the event. at the time he also said that i could have had the phone in my hand which is an offence but i said why would i have it to my ear. i really dont know. it does sicken me especially when innocent and some crimes being committed by others and with little or no punishment

MercMad

alfie wrote:

Ignorance of the law is not a defence.

Section 3 (1) Road Traffic Act 2006 reads A person shall not while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place hold a mobile phone.

If you had the phone in your hand and were driving then you are guilty

........thats it..........thats the point !

As far as the guard is concerned you may not have made a call but you could have taken a photo of your ear with the phone, and thats an offence !!

lostexpectation

alfie wrote:

Ignorance of the law is not a defence.

Section 3 (1) Road Traffic Act 2006 reads A person shall not while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place hold a mobile phone.

If you had the phone in your hand and were driving then you are guilty

the whole point is that he wasn't

alfie

my mistake i thought he was "ribbing" his ear lobe with his phone

tbh

tipper1 wrote:

at the time he also said that i could have had the phone in my hand which is an offence but i said why would i have it to my ear. i really dont know. it does sicken me especially when innocent and some crimes being committed by others and with little or no punishment

i always thought that you were innocent, unless proven beyond reasonable doubt to be guilty - is the burden of proof different for traffic offenses and similar? I suppose it just raises the question - is the word of a guard sufficient proof? does anyone know for sure? (that's not supposed to be a rhetorical question btw!)

TempestSabre

Unfortunately thats the problem if a guard has it in for you, you are going to have a hard time proving otherwise. Sure theres reasonable doubt, but in the real world it will come down to the people, Guard/Judge involved. This is why it pays to know a few guards. :rolleyes:

tbh

of course, I forgot there was a judge, and not a jury to convince. sorry op!

Skyuser

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

A good solicitor would make the garda look very thick in court.

First he might ask the garda why would you use the phone as a handheld when you have a perfectly good car kit.

Then he might ask the garda at what speed he was travelling at when he seem to have observed you using a phone and if he was not giving due care and attention to his own driving at the time.

The final nail of course is the O2 records showing non-existent calls at the time. The solicitor could wave this at the Garda and ask him if he believes he is operating in the same time zone as the rest of us.

I'd go to court and enjoy it. Just to have some more fun, I'd bring a video clip of the car kit in action to reinforce the first point.

You've been watching to many movies.

Bob the Builder

Actually, I would get a good solicitor, go to court and actually be really tense, then a good bit of compensation for stress will come in handy...

..and if you feel like it...there's ways of blackmailing gardaí too(just joking)

leeroybrown

Ultimately if the Garda turns up in court and says that he saw a phone in your hand theres very little chance you will win. The general rule is that judge will take the word of the Garda over yours as the 'system' would collapse otherwise.

El_mariachi

to be honest your not gonna win imo because as someone sadi the judge will alway side with the gardai! you can prove the phone wasn't in use for a call or txt with the reocrds but if its on your hand, your done! The garda will just say he saw it in your hand. then you pay the fine/ get points and its over. the pricple of what happened would piss me of but guards can be pissy over silly things .

i got in trouble wit a cop for jump up onto a 2 ft wall to walk around two mothers with buggies talking. i ask what the problem was and he said "Its not your wall "

axer

What speed were you doing at the time and was the garda car stationary i.e. parked up when you passed or was it travelling beside you on a different lane or what?

overdriver

Another triumph for Garda good will and public relations.
He sounds like a complete fvcker.
Take your chances in court, OP, and good luck to you. if you are right, you can at least take comfort in that. He's a petty bully.

bendaco

ive been stopped/arrested etc for:

assault
criminal damage
failing to comply with direction
d&d - (a few times)

on the other side me personally & my job have been victims of:

burgalry
assault
theft (many times)
obtaining goods by deception
criminal damage
criminal tresspass

thats about 30 crimes in the past 2 years - only 2 got to court - somebody who stole from me got probation / charge against me was dropped...........................it wont get to court

Spitfire666

What a retarded law, you can get done just for holding a mobile phone even though you may be "just" holding it for no reason yet if you took your eyes off the road to change the station on the radio or adjust the A/C nothings wrong, or if you smoke in your car or drink from a bottle of water?

overdriver

I think it was worded that way so's people can't say they were "just holding it" if a Garda sees them just after they've seen him. So they have time to terminate the call, and drop the phone from their ear.
It's also to discourage texting, which I still see a lot.

The Gardai are supposed to use their discretion, which this guy seems to be abusing.

If I were the OP I would go to court and look the judge in the eye and tell him the Garda was mistaken, that surely it happens from time to time. Ask him to ask the Garda if he has never been wrong in his life.

leeroybrown

Spitfire666 wrote:

What a retarded law, you can get done just for holding a mobile phone even though you may be "just" holding it for no reason yet if you took your eyes off the road to change the station on the radio or adjust the A/C nothings wrong, or if you smoke in your car or drink from a bottle of water?

What's retarded about it? The radio and aircon controls in cars are in a fixed position meaning you can generally keep your eyes on the road when using them. Also typically it's a quick press or twist of one or two buttons. If someone picks up their mobile phone and is holding it somewhere that it can be seen then they are more than likely to be using it.

Technically speaking they could do you for driving without due care and attention for drinking from a water bottle while driving. I don't think they've ever gone after smokers.

It will be interesting to see what they do when the studies come back to prove that concentrating on a conversation on the phone even with hands free is detremental to driving.

Car Mad

fight it in court.good luck.

fletch

leeroybrown wrote:

What's retarded about it? The radio and aircon controls in cars are in a fixed position meaning you can generally keep your eyes on the road when using them.

I've always wondered how BMWs i-drive fairs in this respect. I think it would be quite dangerous having to flick through all the various menus. In my opinion, it's no substitute for a nice big button that you can familiarise yourself with, being able to use without having to even look at it

leeroybrown wrote:

It will be interesting to see what they do when the studies come back to prove that concentrating on a conversation on the phone even with hands free is detremental to driving.

I have a hands free kit and so does my Dad and we both agree that it definately affects our driving. Personally I find myself, not noticing traffic jams as much and in general just following the car in front when I'm in a call. I often tell people I'm in the car and will ring them back later even when I'm on the handsfree

Rudolph Claus

This is what the garda`s do instead of doing what they`re supposed to be doing.