United Shotokan Karate Federation

Jimkel

"The United Shotokan Karate Federation was started in 2002 with aim of developing traditional shotokan karate in Ireland, with the emphasis on the student and not politics. The Organisation strives to pursue the upmost professionalism and honesty in every aspect of karate, from tuition to competing both Nationally and Internationally.

Within the The United Shotokan Karate Federation (USKF), traditional Shotokan Karate is taught by qualified instructors who have represented Ireland in both European and World Championship Competitions. The USKF operate clubs all over the greater Dublin area of Ireland. All Organisation clubs are members of the USKF, and are affiliated to the Karate Union of Great Britain (KUGB).

The USKF Organization was founded with the aim of developing a higher standard of Karate in Ireland. The practice of karate not only provides a means of keeping fit, healthy and learning self defense, but also helps build self-confidence, self-esteem and self-awareness.

The USKF is a non-profit Organisation and all funds raised from Grades, Competitions, Fundraising and The USKF merchandise is used to improve the Organisation and fully fund any student or squad representing the Organisation at International Competitions.

The USKF is a modern Organisation, and believes in using universal media tools such as the Internet to provide a valuable online resource to aid our student in their pursuit to improve their karate skills.

It is also the policy of the USKF to organise events every month; Free Courses, Courses with Internationally Renowned Intructors, Competitions, Squad Training, Referees & Judges Courses, first Aid Courses, Summer Camps and much more, with the aim of developing a community spirit within our Organisation. "

From the website http://uskf.org/

The USKF has recently been invited to participate in the world championships.

Nothingcompares

Chief Instructor Sensei Michael Sherlock 5th DAN, Licence Officer Sensei David Royle 4th DAN,
Secretary and PR Officer (coatesc@eircom.net) www.uskf.org
USKF Dojo Rules
While training in the dojo, the following list of rules must be adhered to by each and every
student. The same rules apply to all USKF karate clubs within the organization and have been
designed to promote discipline and create a safe environment for all USKF students while
training.
Students must read the list below and become familiar with these rules. Any questions about these
rules should be addressed to the instructor before or after the class has begun.
1. Remove shoes and bow upon entering the Dojo. Shoes are NEVER worn on the
training floor.
2. Keep the dojo clean. Clothing should be neatly placed along the back wall of the
dojo. Make sure that you take any rubbish home with you.
3. Karate - Gi {Karate suit} must be clean and pressed at all times.
4. Nails should be cut & cleaned as to avoid injury.
5. No eating, drinking or smoking in the dojo at any time.
6. Bow with "OSS" upon entering or leaving the dojo floor. This is to show respect to
Dojo/Sensei and fellow students in the practice of Karate-Do.
7. Never refer to an instructor by name while in the dojo. Always use the term
"Sensei".
8. There should be no talking between students while class is in session. Questions may
be asked at an appropriate time.
9. You must arrive at least 10 minutes before class starts.
10. Late arrivals must wait at the left hand side of the dojo until bowed into class by the
Sensei.
11. Mobile phones must be turned off (this applies to students and visitors/spectators).
12. At NO time will horseplay be tolerated.
13. Good hygiene should be followed. Gi’s are to be kept clean and in good repair.
Finger- and toenails should be kept short to prevent injury while training and hands
and feet should be clean.
14. Jewellery should not be worn while training. Watches, rings, earrings, necklaces,
etc. often get in the way and can cause otherwise avoidable injuries.
15. Chewing gum is not allowed in class.

Wow, I find all these rules etc. very condescending. Do you have a lot of children in your clubs?

kenpo_dave

Ye I agree, all those rules are a bit unnecessary. I found its the same with the Masters Temple in Bray when I checked out their website. The person who did the site for this club should also learn how to spell 'OSU'.

OSU,

Dave.

Roper

Well, they all seem fair enough to me, bar 6, 7,8 and 10. What specifically is your problem with them?

Miles Long

I dunno, They seem like any set of rules to me. They appear strenuous to the letter but when taken in practice they are at the disgression of the Sensei. I find that a modern mentality coupled with a traditional art negates alot of formal traditions which leads to a happy medium and a happy club.

Shiney Happy People.

Rory!

Jimkel

Miles Long wrote:

I dunno, They seem like any set of rules to me. They appear strenuous to the letter but when taken in practice they are at the disgression of the Sensei. I find that a modern mentality coupled with a traditional art negates alot of formal traditions which leads to a happy medium and a happy club.

Shiney Happy People.

Rory!

Your dead right, The atmosphere in the clubs is friendly, And when you get you foot in the door you find a balance of friendship and respect with the instructor reffering to them by sensie and thier first name depending on the context. The rule barring chit chat between students really only applies when your instructor is teaching or addressing the class. Or when Kata is being preformed so they can concentrate etc. It's Really just common courtesy the kind you would find in any Teacher student envioronment.It's a dojo, not a mess hall for kids.

Jimkel

Nothingcompares, my fav Sniper! There are kids and adults in the clubs, Usually there are seperate senior classes and other advanced classes run monthly.

Jimkel

kenpo_dave wrote:

Ye I agree, all those rules are a bit unnecessary. I found its the same with the Masters Temple in Bray when I checked out their website. The person who did the site for this club should also learn how to spell 'OSU'.

OSU,

Dave.

You have to remember the rules are designed for beginners who may not be familiar with Karate etiquette and having Osu in the rules would result in People saying OS-OO and having to be corrected, Most Irish are not up on Japanese pronunciation such as Silent u's. The spelling is deliberate.

kenpo_dave

Jimkel wrote:

You have to remember the rules are designed for beginners who may not be familiar with Karate etiquette and having Osu in the rules would result in People saying OS-OO and having to be corrected, Most Irish are not up on Japanese pronunciation such as Silent u's. The spelling is deliberate.

I train in a Kyokushin Dojo and we have very few of the formalities yet there is still alot of Karate etiquette. Good Karateka and good fighters.

Miles Long wrote:

I find that a modern mentality coupled with a traditional art negates alot of formal traditions which leads to a happy medium and a happy club.

Rules of a Dojo similar to those listed are, in my opinion, the unnecessary parts of Traditional Martial Arts, they have nothing to do with the Martial or Artistic sides of the style and only exist for the satisfaction of the instructor.

OSU,

Dave.

Dyr

kenpo_dave wrote:

Ye I agree, all those rules are a bit unnecessary. I found its the same with the Masters Temple in Bray when I checked out their website. The person who did the site for this club should also learn how to spell 'OSU'.

OSU,

Dave.

"osu" is often spelt "oss" or "osh/ush", given that its a phonetic translation of an exclamation (like "hey" or "oof!" in english) its a bit silly to pull someone over the spelling imo

kenpo_dave

Bambi wrote:

"osu" is often spelt "oss" or "osh/ush", given that its a phonetic translation of an exclamation (like "hey" or "oof!" in english) its a bit silly to pull someone over the spelling imo

Perhaps. I suppose it doesnt really matter how they spell it.

Jimkel

kenpo_dave wrote:

Rules of a Dojo similar to those listed are, in my opinion, the unnecessary parts of Traditional Martial Arts, they have nothing to do with the Martial or Artistic sides of the style and only exist for the satisfaction of the instructor.

OSU,

Dave.

At the end of the day all clubs are different and one thing I never think about in training is the rules, I do be too into what I'm learning. You rarely get the chance to break any rules because your usually being worked. Anyway I've never seen or heard of anyone being pulled over a breach of these rules.

Any Association will have rules. the club i'm in as I said is very much a teamwork and comradery envioronment. These are technicalities that really mean nothing more than Be respectful to Your fellow students and teachers, And listen to whats being said. Like anywhere really, I've trained in Kenpo, Judo, Wing Tsun and Shotokan and They all have expected the same.

We respect the Sensie but it's not a red carpet job ya know? They're good friends too. They get stuck in to the training just like everyone else.

Os

Miles Long

kenpo_dave wrote:

I train in a Kyokushin Dojo and we have very few of the formalities yet there is still alot of Karate etiquette. Good Karateka and good fighters.

Rules of a Dojo similar to those listed are, in my opinion, the unnecessary parts of Traditional Martial Arts, they have nothing to do with the Martial or Artistic sides of the style and only exist for the satisfaction of the instructor.

OSU,

Dave.

I agree. One thing I figure is that you don't yes Sir/Sensei/Sifu/Master or whatever as a hierachey thing but as an acknowledgement of understanding, like in school, you don't call Mr. Frank Lemon, Frank. You call him Mr. Lemon. You are being taught by someone, know your place to the extend of courtisy, you're not kissing her/his hand or anything, but you are being given knowledge. I think I said this on here before, I hate "King in my Kingdom" syndrome.

Mutual Respect!

kenpo_dave

Miles Long wrote:

I agree. One thing I figure is that you don't yes Sir/Sensei/Sifu/Master or whatever as a hierachey thing but as an acknowledgement of understanding, like in school, you don't call Mr. Frank Lemon, Frank. You call him Mr. Lemon. You are being taught by someone, know your place to the extend of courtisy, you're not kissing her/his hand or anything, but you are being given knowledge. I think I said this on here before, I hate "King in my Kingdom" syndrome.

Mutual Respect!

In both the Kyokushin and Kenpo Dojos I train in we call the instructors by their first names. Though in the Kenpo Dojo the head instructor is called Mr. D, as a nickname rather than anything else.

Roper

Miles Long wrote:

I agree. One thing I figure is that you don't yes Sir/Sensei/Sifu/Master or whatever as a hierachey thing but as an acknowledgement of understanding, like in school, you don't call Mr. Frank Lemon, Frank. You call him Mr. Lemon. You are being taught by someone, know your place to the extend of courtisy, you're not kissing her/his hand or anything, but you are being given knowledge. I think I said this on here before, I hate "King in my Kingdom" syndrome.

Mutual Respect!

Nah thats bullsh1t. A lecturer of mine is a doctor of literature, and very qualified and respected man, and I call him 'Noel'. People in my class call me Barry, some of them call me worse I'm sure.:D It doesn't affect anything.

Acknowledgment of understanding??? What happened to "do you understand?", "yes, I do".?:D My wife is a teacher and her students call their teachers by their first name as it fosters an understanding and cooperative relationship between teacher and student, rather than a formal division.

Roper

Jimkel wrote:

YIt's a dojo, not a mess hall for kids.

Hmmm, my place IS a mess hall for kids during their classes. I find thats how they develop best and learn skills, through play.

Jimkel

Once again It's all down to personal preference. Some people don't mind formalities, some people hate them. In our club we call the sensie by his first name allot, and reply "oss" to his instructions as acknowledgment, If someone doesnt understand they merely have to ask, With something like "Sensie..I don't know what you mean", or "could you explain that to me" etc.

Sensie is used mainly when addressing the instructor in front of the class. In the Changing room or before and after class it's just good friendly fun with no formalities other than those you would expect in Normal day to day life.

Shotokan is a serious martial art and horseplay will most likely lead to injury amongst the beginners, We don't use mats so if a kid falls from messing, they can get hurt.

As I said I'ts all go, theres no time or breaks for kids to get a chance to mess. That would result in disrupting the class. Obviousley there is a lot more leniance given to children esp when it comes to "sensie". But adults are expected to show respect. If an instructor is explaning something to the class It's not good to have people running around in dissarray, you listen, Acknowledge and do what your told. After all your paying to learn Karate and disrupting things would'nt be very logical.

Thats how I see it but everyones opinion is as valid.

Rob1shoto

I hope I'm not intruding on the chat here, I just wated to add my opinion.

I try to encourage my students to call other instructors by the title Sempei (senior), this removes the habit of using names and prevents students behaving like they are outsite.
It helps to keep things traditional and also stops students from calling out accross the class. Some students can take advantage of the relaxed first name basis approach, then it gets difficult to punish students who go too far.
I believe they need to develop the respect for their seniors to understand why shotokan is so demanding, and to realise that some day they might be an instructor and would like to earn the title.

In my last club, there was a relaxed approach towards the junior students behaviour and eventually after a while, the seniors had enough of the juniors disrespect, so all the seniors left and went on to a better club.
If the juniors are taught to be respectfull to there seniors, it will not only help them in their studies, it will halp them in there growth.

This is just my opinion, perhaps someone else would disagree!

www.clondalkinshotokan.webs.com

arybvtcw0eolkf

Ok guys, before we're all reminded - I know the thread is a few year's old.

But as most posters in it are still active on boards.ie we'll let Rob run with it.



.

FruitLover

Rob1shoto wrote: »

I try to encourage my students to call other instructors by the title Sempei (senior)

Sempai (先輩)

Damo W

Rob1shoto wrote: »

punish students who go too far.

Huh.... 'punish'... surely this is a typo????

Gorman

Rob1shoto wrote: »

I hope I'm not intruding on the chat here, I just wated to add my opinion.

I try to encourage my students to call other instructors by the title Sempei (senior), this removes the habit of using names and prevents students behaving like they are outsite.
It helps to keep things traditional and also stops students from calling out accross the class. Some students can take advantage of the relaxed first name basis approach, then it gets difficult to punish students who go too far.
I believe they need to develop the respect for their seniors to understand why shotokan is so demanding, and to realise that some day they might be an instructor and would like to earn the title.

In my last club, there was a relaxed approach towards the junior students behaviour and eventually after a while, the seniors had enough of the juniors disrespect, so all the seniors left and went on to a better club.
If the juniors are taught to be respectfull to there seniors, it will not only help them in their studies, it will halp them in there growth.

This is just my opinion, perhaps someone else would disagree!

www.clondalkinshotokan.webs.com

All the Senpai, Kohai & Sensei stuff is complete BS in my opinion. Just because somebody know some karate they get a special honorific title? - in japanese no less. These titles are more for the benefit of the teachers ego rather than the students well being.
You got to admit, anyone who gets the title of Senpai or Sensei, secretly really loves it, makes them feel like some japanese martial arts master.

If there needs to be a special title, why not teacher, coach or Mr. Murphy? Or is the whole class done through japanese?

BTW - can you give some details on how "punish students who go too far"?
What are the crimes?

Zen65

The titles "Sempai" and "Kohai" are not 'honorific' as you suggest, they are descriptive. Even the term "Sensei" is not a title intended to show honor (respect and courtesy yes, honor no). It is only to very advanced grades (6th Dan& above) that the honorary term "Shihan" is applied.

Courtesy is not BS, it is at the heart of the karate philosophy. The use of the terms "Sempai" and "Kohai" removes the need to personally know everyone's name in a club (in large clubs, especially kids' clubs, names are often not known because you don't always have opportunity to mix socially). In the clubs I train in, once we know names there is no need to use the terms "Sempai" or "Kohai". Anyone whose ego is fluffed by being called these names suffers from an easily-fluffed ego.

yomchi

Rob1shoto wrote: »

I hope I'm not intruding on the chat here, I just wated to add my opinion.

I try to encourage my students to call other instructors by the title Sempei (senior), this removes the habit of using names and prevents students behaving like they are outsite.
It helps to keep things traditional and also stops students from calling out accross the class. Some students can take advantage of the relaxed first name basis approach, then it gets difficult to punish students who go too far.
I believe they need to develop the respect for their seniors to understand why shotokan is so demanding, and to realise that some day they might be an instructor and would like to earn the title.

In my last club, there was a relaxed approach towards the junior students behaviour and eventually after a while, the seniors had enough of the juniors disrespect, so all the seniors left and went on to a better club.
If the juniors are taught to be respectfull to there seniors, it will not only help them in their studies, it will halp them in there growth.

This is just my opinion, perhaps someone else would disagree!

www.clondalkinshotokan.webs.com

The respect you speak of is a fallacy. This type of BS creeps into clubs that don't promote a sport first attitude, no one develops under criteria mostly associated with archaic Japanese and Korean training methods.

This is Ireland, not Japan nor Korea nor China.

JFT

Just Feckin Train!

getz

when i have ever gone into a karate class i will always show respect to the instructor,dojo or students,shotokan is a traditional martial art,and believes you need to show respect to learn,this is no different than what would happen if you joined armed forces, my first shotokan classes was with c mack,kanazowa,and asano [not sure if i have spelt the names right] and they were keen on tradition

yomchi

getz wrote: »

when i have ever gone into a karate class i will always show respect to the instructor,dojo or students,shotokan is a traditional martial art,and believes you need to show respect to learn,this is no different than what would happen if you joined armed forces, my first shotokan classes was with c mack,kanazowa,and asano [not sure if i have spelt the names right] and they were keen on tradition

You don't 'show respect' - you follow protocol.

Do you do the exact same things when you greet your mother or father?

Simple question really.

getz

Jon wrote: »

You don't 'show respect' - you follow protocol.

Do you do the exact same things when you greet your mother or father?

Simple question really.

if i lived in japan i would bow to them,when you take up any sport you have to play to their rules,

Nothingcompares

I was under the impression it was impossible for a westerner to understand the intricacies of the Japanese bow such as the angle you bend, the amount of eye contact you maintain, the duration you hold it depending on the scenario. Therefore I understood it was reasonably accepted you just make any kind of effort and they'll be content enough.

So what's the point in going around bowing at the lads in your gym when nobody knows exactly what they're doing in the Japanese sense. I suppose we've taken it on to mean something completely different here (I've rarely had a problem bowing with anyone).

FruitLover

getz wrote: »

if i lived in japan i would bow to them,when you take up any sport you have to play to their rules,

I don't think anyone in this thread is talking about training in Japan.

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I was under the impression it was impossible for a westerner to understand the intricacies of the Japanese bow

a) You should probably know by now that there's nothing a Japanese person can learn that's "impossible" for a Westerner to learn

b) Most Japanese people don't know how to bow "correctly" (according to the old fogeys).

yomchi

getz wrote: »

if i lived in japan i would bow to them,when you take up any sport you have to play to their rules,

Well yes, so therefore it isn't 'respect', it's following protocol according to that particular sports rules.

Charlie3dan

When you first start a Japanese martial art you are following the protocol of displaying courtesy where necessary. This behaviour will eventually be replicated outside the dojo. These protocols are not in place to massage ego's or to develop some kind of forced or false respect. This is showing respect for someone in the same way you show respect for the greens on a golf course, the same way some parents teach their kids to respect elders etc. These protocols are part of developing the entire person, not just their left hook or their roundhouse kick.

Some people say this doesn't need to be taught and in some cases that's true but in many cases people just assume they are courteous people without really knowing the difference. Everyone thinks they are a person of character no matter how unsavoury their character may be in reality.

Of course it's easier not to have to do any of this and go off kicking the heavy bag to your heart's content. And of course, it’s easier to dismiss these things as BS than to really understand them.

yomchi

Charlie3dan wrote: »

When you first start a Japanese martial art you are following the protocol of displaying courtesy where necessary. This behaviour will eventually be replicated outside the dojo.

Really? How? Does this include everydbody? If so, how does one police that outside of the Dojo?

Charlie3dan wrote: »

These protocols are not in place to massage ego's or to develop some kind of forced or false respect. This is showing respect for someone in the same way you show respect for the greens on a golf course, the same way some parents teach their kids to respect elders etc. These protocols are part of developing the entire person, not just their left hook or their roundhouse kick.

The enitre person? Please explain what you mean by the entire person. Unless you are a qualified psychoanalysist, how do you plan on developing the entire person, given the fact that you don't even know their make up.

You are mixing up the two different kinds of respect. Respecting the green on a golf course would be considered what's known as Recognition Respect. As humans we automatically can show recognition respect to things like, the law, nature, an argument etc. On the other hand and in stark contrast to that, you have Appraisal Respect which something much different and includes the respect of a fellow human beings character and all that's within it. Very different strands of human emotion Charlie, I have some extracts from psychologicsl books on the computer if you fancy reading them. They explain it better than me.

But in essence, you cannot teach nor show how to develop real respect (appraisal) but you can show and dictate consideration respect.

Two different things completely, but if you're talking about the 'entire self' you are talking about appraisal.

And it can be quite easy to dismiss an argument without having the full information, BS or not.

Charlie3dan

Policed? It’s not policed outside the dojo. It’s not policed inside the dojo.
This is how things work, if that’s not what you want ---> there’s the door.

By entire person I mean taking a broad view of the person not just how they kick/punch or perform in a competition. There’s no need for psychoanalysis, there are just principles for good martial artists that are applied to everyone.

I’m not trying to distinguish between the types of respect, I’m saying that respect (or maybe courtesy is a better word) is necessary. Nobody’s “teaching” respect or trying to force respect upon someone. It’s more about setting standards of behaviour.

yomchi

Charlie3dan wrote: »

It’s not policed outside the dojo. It’s not policed inside the dojo. This is how things work, if that’s not what you want - there’s the door.

Sure that policing the issue? Anyway, that's not my point nor is it relevant. I asked how you knew that it would replicate it's self outside of the Dojo.

Charlie3dan wrote: »

I’m not trying to distinguish between the types of respect, I’m saying that respect (or maybe courtesy is a better word) is necessary. Nobody’s “teaching” respect or trying to force respect upon someone. It’s more about setting standards of behaviour

Setting standards of behaviour in the Dojo, is about sticking to the rules. Again my original point.

If nobody is teaching respect what about this you said?

Charlie3dan wrote: »

This is showing respect for someone in the same way you show respect for the greens on a golf course, the same way some parents teach their kids to respect elders etc. These protocols are part of developing the entire person, not just their left hook or their roundhouse kick

getz

a large part of shotokan is spiritual as fighting,you would not walk into church without respect,so dont do it in a traditional karate club,or you will be missing out on the ,way of the warrior,

Charlie3dan

It doesn't need to be policed. It replicate's itself outside the dojo because it becomes part of the person.

I'm not disagreeing with your point that you can't teach respect but I am disagreeing with anyone who says it's all just BS.
The protocols are not some attempt to force respect or create this false respect for sensei or something. They have a purpose which is valuable and it's more of a behavioural thing. This might sometimes be called "respect" and maybe that's not the best description, maybe courtesy is more accurate but the people who say it's just BS and serves only the ego don't understand it's purpose.

FruitLover

Charlie3dan wrote: »

This behaviour will eventually be replicated outside the dojo.
...
Some people say this doesn't need to be taught and in some cases that's true but in many cases people just assume they are courteous people without really knowing the difference.

Bowing, saying 'osu' and reciting the dojo kun do not magically transform an adult into a courteous person.

Charlie3dan wrote: »

These protocols are part of developing the entire person, not just their left hook or their roundhouse kick.

I pay my martial arts teachers to teach my how to punch, kick, throw, etc, not to 'perfect my character' or similar nonsense. Furthermore, they have no business trying to do that, just as a buddhist monk has no business teaching karate.

getz wrote: »

a large part of shotokan is spiritual as fighting,you would not walk into church without respect,so dont do it in a traditional karate club,or you will be missing out on the ,way of the warrior,

Holy cow. Did you actually just compare a karate dojo to a church? I think you're too far gone to help. Best of luck.

Charlie3dan wrote: »

people who say it's just BS and serves only the ego don't understand it's purpose.

I understand its purposes just fine.

1. An attempt to force conformity and obedience (i.e. control)
2. A way to make a violent martial art appear more structured and spiritual (this was very important at the beginning of the American occupation of Japan after WWII, when the Yanks wanted to ban any practices of fighting).

Dictation of a behaviour model to grown adults is the basis of a cult. This is what you're trying to defend.

Charlie3dan

FruitLover wrote: »

Bowing, saying 'osu' and reciting the dojo kun do not magically transform an adult into a courteous person.

These threads always get brought down by these type of posts. no one is suggesting that :rolleyes:

FruitLover wrote: »

I pay my martial arts teachers to teach my how to punch, kick, throw, etc, not to 'perfect my character' or similar nonsense. Furthermore, they have no business trying to do that, just as a buddhist monk has no business teaching karate.

That's up to you. Some people believe they can be martial artists with just physical discipline. But if you are teaching people to hurt others, you should really have some sense of responsibility.

FruitLover wrote: »

I understand its purposes just fine.

1. An attempt to force conformity and obedience (i.e. control)
2. A way to make a violent martial art appear more structured and spiritual (this was very important at the beginning of the American occupation of Japan after WWII, when the Yanks wanted to ban any practices of fighting).

Dictation of a behaviour model to grown adults is the basis of a cult. This is what you're trying to defend.

Again, I disagree with you that you believe this is it's purpose and I question if you truly understand it.

Zen65

FruitLover wrote: »

I pay my martial arts teachers to teach my how to punch, kick, throw, etc, not to 'perfect my character' or similar nonsense.

There may be martial arts teachers who will teach you this way, and if this is what you want then you should choose to go learn from them.

When I send my kids to school I expect their teachers to teach them more than maths and language skills, I expect they will teach correct behaviour skills to all students, so that all students may learn equally. A good karate-do teacher will teach more than the sum of individual techniques, he will teach the behaviours which make it safe for all students to learn.

But this is not a cult; you are free to choose other styles, other ways of learning, and even to choose to only learn how to punch, kick & throw. To exercise this choice you must choose a teacher who teaches the way you prefer. If you choose this path you can be sure that traditional karate practitioners will respect your choices.

Keep the faith,


Zen65

yomchi

Zen65 wrote: »

There may be martial arts teachers who will teach you this way, and if this is what you want then you should choose to go learn from them.

When I send my kids to school I expect their teachers to teach them more than maths and language skills, I expect they will teach correct behaviour skills to all students, so that all students may learn equally. A good karate-do teacher will teach more than the sum of individual techniques, he will teach the behaviours which make it safe for all students to learn.


Zen65

One word... Parents.

Too many people think the role of the teacher, Martial Arts coach/instructor is that of parent.

No wonder parents treat us like baby sitters.

yomchi

Charlie3dan wrote: »

It doesn't need to be policed. It replicate's itself outside the dojo because it becomes part of the person.

How do you know this?

Charlie3dan wrote: »

They have a purpose which is valuable and it's more of a behavioural thing. This might sometimes be called "respect" and maybe that's not the best description, maybe courtesy is more accurate but the people who say it's just BS and serves only the ego don't understand it's purpose..

Thats the role of a behavioural therapist. What exactly do you mean?

I don't only think it serves the ego, but for many and I mean MANY, it does serve the ego.
Apart from that, I understand it as protocol. Why do we do it? Because we''ve always done it, and because sensei or Master so and so says we've to do it.

FruitLover

Charlie3dan wrote: »

if you are teaching people to hurt others, you should really have some sense of responsibility

Are you under the impression that you can change a grown adult's attitude by telling them to behave a certain way? If a bad/violent person wants to learn karate, they are not going to become a good person just because you tell them to be.

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Again, I disagree with you that you believe this is it's purpose and I question if you truly understand it.

I'm laughing this little condescending dig. This little line is always trotted out by those trying to defend some of the more doctrinal aspects of TMA; it's a cliche at this stage. 'You don't truly understand the way of karate-do. You need more training' etc etc. If I don't "truly understand it", then please teach me, oh great sensei.

While you do that, you might like to have a listen to this.

Zen65 wrote: »

When I send my kids to school I expect their teachers to teach them more than maths and language skills, I expect they will teach correct behaviour skills to all students, so that all students may learn equally.

Kids, fair enough (to a point). Children's moral compasses have not been fully set yet. But as an adult, do you expect to need to be told right from wrong by some guy called 'Dave' or whatever who teaches karate in a parish hall a few nights a week? Or how about we replace the karate teacher with a tennis coach? Would it not be laughable to expect a tennis coach to teach moral values to their students? Or a bit closer to home, how about being told "seek perfection of character" in a boxing or wrestling club? I'd consider that very odd.

Zen65

Fruitlover, you are confusing morals with behaviors. A good instructor establishes behaviors which he/she expects students to follow, regardless of their age. There is no compulsion nor attempt to make students believe in a set of morals. A tennis coach also establishes rules of behavior on the court (different of course, but you have seen how umpires issue warnings for unbecoming behavior at tennis matches?). I don't think you would consider this as laughable?

Morals and values cannot be effectively taught in a dojo, because a student is more influenced by interactions outside the dojo. However in the dojo the instructor has a duty and responsibility to establish behaviors which make the time spent more efficient and safer for all students. The moral question of "right" and "wrong" is not an issue, only that of acceptable behavior. Students must show respect (whether or not they believe in it) in the dojo because respect is at the heart of what makes it safe to train MA with others.

If you read my previous posts on this topic (just my words, don't add your own interpretations) you won't find any reference to morals, just behaviors.

And while I'm on the subject .. Jon asked Charlie3dan how behaviors in the dojo spread to behavior outside? The answer is straightforward: It is an established fact that morals and beliefs do not greatly affect behavior, but behaviors do affect thoughts and beliefs. So the action of behaving with respect towards those we train with does influence how we treat others we interact with. In the field of safety management (my professional field) we know that requiring workers to behave safely and enforcing this through their terms of employment is more effective at keeping staff safe than trying to change their attitudes to safety.

So, enforcing appropriate behaviors is not BS, it is a requirement of responsible instructing, no matter what your sport. In MA it's difficult to get insurance without having a written statement of your rules, and referring to them in the membership contract. Indeed it is a basic Health & Safety requirement in Ireland.

It is not necessary to use bowing, nor Japanese titles to have safe rules, but those of us who have trained for decades in this environment know that it has advantages. Enforcing these behaviors in the dojo is not BS, it is an effective behavior training tool.

Mind the manners!

Zen65

Charlie3dan

Jon wrote: »

How do you know this?

You don't have to know it, you reward the behaviour in the dojo and it's part of the philosophy to adopt the principles into everyday life. Maybe you could just act a certain way in the dojo only, but why bother?

Jon wrote: »

Thats the role of a behavioural therapist. What exactly do you mean?

I don't only think it serves the ego, but for many and I mean MANY, it does serve the ego.
Apart from that, I understand it as protocol. Why do we do it? Because we''ve always done it, and because sensei or Master so and so says we've to do it.

If that were the case why would it have been done in the first place?

Nobody's trying to get into behavioural therapy. It's simple, you want to do karate, you have to take these principles on board. If you don't, then you don't, best of luck buddy.

It's not done as a meaningless ritual. It's done because it serves a purpose.
There may be other ways of achieving the same goal or there may be those who don't see the value in what it develops. But dismissing it as BS is stupid.

I don't agree with everything I read here either, but you won't find me dismissing other people's practices as BS. Maybe I can learn something from it, maybe I acknowledge that they get something from it or maybe I'm just more courteous than that.
And that doesn't mean live and let live, I can still question things and indeed question my own practices and keep an open mind.

Charlie3dan

FruitLover wrote: »

Are you under the impression that you can change a grown adult's attitude by telling them to behave a certain way? If a bad/violent person wants to learn karate, they are not going to become a good person just because you tell them to be.

No. You are just regurgitating crap that you've said on this topic from past discussions I think. If they do not adopt the principles of karate, they don't prosper in karate.

FruitLover wrote: »

I'm laughing this little condescending dig. This little line is always trotted out by those trying to defend some of the more doctrinal aspects of TMA; it's a cliche at this stage. 'You don't truly understand the way of karate-do. You need more training' etc etc. If I don't "truly understand it", then please teach me, oh great sensei.

The link doesn't work but I'm sure you can put forward your own ideas.
Really, I didn't think that was condescending in the slightest. I gave my opinion, you gave yours, I disagree with your view. To compare it to a cult shows that you have little understanding. I'm not preaching or teaching anybody....all I'm doing is telling people that dismissing it as BS is not the way to go.

Tim_Murphy

The protocols are not some attempt to force respect or create this false respect for sensei or something. They have a purpose which is valuable and it's more of a behavioural thing. This might sometimes be called "respect" and maybe that's not the best description, maybe courtesy is more accurate but the people who say it's just BS and serves only the ego don't understand it's purpose.

People might call it BS without understanding it. Then again, others people will understand it perfectly well and still call it BS. I actually think BS is a little strong, misguided might be a better word. It's similar to a lot of things really; there's a bit of a good idea in there somewhere. Then people got their hands on it and organised the sh^te out of it until the original good idea was buried in protocol, ritual and general silliness.

If that were the case why would it have been done in the first place?

well it's a great way of controlling people for a start. It also gives people the impression that they and what they are doing is more important and grand than it actually is.

Charlie3dan

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

People might call it BS without understanding it. Then again, others people will understand it perfectly well and still call it BS. I actually think BS is a little strong, misguided might be a better word. It's similar to a lot of things really; there's a bit of a good idea in there somewhere. Then people got their hands on it and organised the sh^te out of it until the original good idea was buried in protocol, ritual and general silliness.

That's the problem facing most TMA, mcdojos opening everywhere, belts being handed out for nothing, watering down the practises of the TMA etc etc.
Some people may see these bad actions and come to the conclusion that all TMA are BS. That's not the case. It's the same as saying all MMA guys are meat heads.

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

well it's a great way of controlling people for a start. It also gives people the impression that they and what they are doing is more important and grand than it actually is.

Controlling the world one dojo at a time. How ambitious.
I actually addressed that later in the post you quoted. It's done for the benefits it gives to practitioners, not for the benefit to instructors.

Tim_Murphy

That's the problem facing most TMA, mcdojos opening everywhere, belts being handed out for nothing, watering down the practises of the TMA etc etc.
Some people may see these bad actions and come to the conclusion that all TMA are BS. That's not the case. It's the same as saying all MMA guys are meat heads.

I'm not talking about crappy mcdojos, I'm talking about 'traditional' clubs in general. The TKD club I trained in was a very good one but had all the same problems I alluded to above.

Controlling the world one dojo at a time. How ambitious.

Most people aren't too worried about the world, they are more into controlling their own little of bit. Make themselves feels important a few nights a week.

I actually addressed that later in the post you quoted. It's done for the benefits it gives to practitioners, not for the benefit to instructors.

I've no doubt you believe that, and it's true to a point. Unfortunately I know of number of instructors who use it to struck their own egos and most would be completely unaware that this is what they are doing.

Charlie3dan

Yes generally, there are plenty of bad examples out there and people who don't execute the principles of TMA's well.

But that doesn't mean all TMA's (or in this case practices of ettiquette) should be dismissed as BS, based on generalisations.

Tim_Murphy

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Yes generally, there are plenty of bad examples out there and people who don't execute the principles of TMA's well.

You don't seem to get that I'm not talking about 'bad examples'. I'm talking about people and clubs who are executing the principles of their particular MA perfectly well.

Charlie3dan wrote: »

But that doesn't mean all TMA's (or in this case practices of ettiquette) should be dismissed as BS, based on generalisations.

As somebody who was involved in a 'traditional' MA for years, I wouldn't dismiss varous practices of ettiquette as BS based on generalisations, I'd dismiss them as BS at worst, or just a bit silly at best, based on specifics!

Charlie3dan

The specific examples you've given are where the principles of ettiquette haven't been carried out well. Where they have been used as control or to fuel the ego.

The execution is poor, the principles themselves are not.

A specific example of a meathead in MMA would be Brock Lesnar's actions at UFC 100.
Does that means all MMA guys are meatheads, no.