Strangely compelled to protect the Pope from religious bigotry

Schuhart

Bob Hope makes a few remarks about Islam. Then some Muslims do the whole big angry group thing for the benefit of Sky News.

I found reading Bob’s original script that the appeal to reason was altogether welcome. But Catholicism hardly has a proud tradition of respecting intellectual freedom, even if the Spanish Inquisition was finally shut down in the 1830s. On the other had, mainstream Islam preaches that Muslim apostates should be subject to a death penalty. That seems a tad stiff to me.

I come out of it feeling that Bob is worthy of support because of the need to protect the principle of freedom of conscience. Should I care? Or, more correctly, does anyone else care?

Zombrex

Schuhart wrote:

Bob Hope makes a few remarks about Islam. Then some Muslims do the whole big angry group thing for the benefit of Sky News.

I found reading Bob’s original script that the appeal to reason was altogether welcome. But Catholicism hardly has a proud tradition of respecting intellectual freedom, even if the Spanish Inquisition was finally shut down in the 1830s. On the other had, mainstream Islam preaches that Muslim apostates should be subject to a death penalty. That seems a tad stiff to me.

I come out of it feeling that Bob is worthy of support because of the need to protect the principle of freedom of conscience. Should I care? Or, more correctly, does anyone else care?

Quickly confirming Godwin's law yet again...

Isn't supporting the Pope's comments about Islam because one feels that religious extremism is a bad thing is a bit like supporting Hitler's comments about Jews because you feel Israel is being too aggressive.

I'm all for pointing out the extreme nature of Islam, but then I'm all for pointing out the extreme nature of Catholicism. The Pope doesn't need to look very far to find examples of this in his own church.

I would be very weary to appear to support the Pope, not because I don't believe Islam has extreme elements, but because the Pope is doing what a lot of westerns have been doing over the last few years, namly playing the "our religion is better than your religion" card against Islam. That is neither correct or particularly helpful to the current world situtation.

Dades

While the angry reaction was irritatingly predictable, I'd find it very hard to support the pope. As Wicknight puts it - the "our religion is better than your religion" attitude frustrates me even more the Life of Brianesque "don't you oppress me" attitude.

Sometimes you'd just love to administer a beating with the reality stick.

Scofflaw

The more one looks at this, the more one is forced to conclude that the media has taken this up because it fits the prevailing "clash of civilisations" meta-narrative.

Even as an atheist, I accept that the Pope, as leader of a religion, has the right to think less of other religions than his own. I also think he has the right, as an intellectual, to use any example he likes to make his point.

None of us consider pointing up the Nazis as somehow insulting to Germans, but there are certainly Germans who don't like to hear it - particularly the younger generations. And that's 50 years, not 500.

This is manufactured fuss - manufactured both sides.

cordially,
Scofflaw

pH

Cynical old me can't help wondering how unintentional this all was. Let's face it, even by today's yardstick of lack on interest in religion, he's had a fairly unimpressive start to his papacy.

No publicity is bad publicity, and because of a fairly predictable and over the top reaction from prominent Muslim thinkers he's had a few days of headline news.

How does this play for his target audience? - probably good, he has made a bit of a name for himself, raised his profile, and been 'attacked' by Muslims.

5uspect

If you take the popes apology in the same way as the media has taken the original speech then you could see it as an attack on Jews.

Apparently there is a bit after the speech changes to italian where he refers to the crime of the Jews for the murder of Jesus. I can't seem to find it online but I'll keep looking...

EDIT: He said: "we preach the crucified Christ - a scandal for the Jews, a folly for the pagans"
from ireland.com

But anyway the point is that we don't see everyone in Israel out burning pope effigies after these comments? why is it that muslims are so intolerant or any other "truth" other than their own? (I can see someone from one of the religious fora claiming that the atheist "truth" is just as bad).

So to answer Schuhart's post, I have no sympathy for the pope here, because we all know what will happen if I even mention here on boards that I think Islam is a cruel and intolerant belief (as are all of them).

Zombrex

pH wrote:

Cynical old me can't help wondering how unintentional this all was.

Oh I would say it was very intentional. The cries of Catholics claiming that these are not the Pope's own views look nothing more than spin.

This Pope seems to be taking a hard line against Islam. In July 2005 he refused to call Islam a religion of peace, saying only that the religion contains elements of peace and that Muslims must move towards those elements. In De 2005 a priest reported from a meeting that the Pope does not believe Islam can be compatable with democracy as such a change would require a fundamental re-writing of the basis of the religion which would never happen.

This guy doesn't like Islam very much. Now, I don't like Islam very much, but I also don't like Catholicism, or the Protestant religions or any western religion for that matter.

But I don't think this Pope is helping matters very much, and it is hard not to balk at the hypocracy of the whole thing. You also wonder what is the point. Does the Pope think Muslims will listen to him, or is it just "my religion is better than yours" saber rattling.

Schuhart

Scofflaw wrote:

Even as an atheist, I accept that the Pope, as leader of a religion, has the right to think less of other religions than his own. I also think he has the right, as an intellectual, to use any example he likes to make his point.

I think this is more or less it. I’d like to see is someone taking Bob up on his new found commitment to rationality, and exploring where that goes on any topic you’d like to mention – his personal position as holder of the divine franchise for the planet, eternal life, whatever. What I don’t like is the idea that Bob cannot get stuck into Islam if he wants, because the consequence of that is we cannot get stuck into either Bob or Islam.

Scofflaw wrote:

This is manufactured fuss - manufactured both sides.

When you get down to it, each faith is essentially saying the others are full of it. This is essentially a story based on the contention that they only just noticed what the others were saying about them.

5uspect wrote:

Apparently there is a bit after the speech changes to italian where he refers to the crime of the Jews for the murder of Jesus. I can't seem to find it online but I'll keep looking...

I think this is the reference

Just minutes after saying he was "deeply sorry" to the Muslim world yesterday, the Pope quoted from St Paul on the meaning of the cross. Speaking in Italian he cited Paul, saying "we preach the crucified Christ - a scandal for the Jews, a folly for the pagans".

Jewish representatives expressed surprise. Rabbi Dr Jonathan Romain, a member of the board of the Council of Christians and Jews, set up to counter prejudice between religions and races, said: "The Pope has every right to quote his own holy texts, but it may be unwise in the current climate to choose those which relate to other faiths."

Zombrex

5uspect wrote:

But anyway the point is that we don't see everyone in Israel out burning pope effigies after these comments? why is it that muslims are so intolerant or any other "truth" other than their own? (I can see someone from one of the religious fora claiming that the atheist "truth" is just as bad).

Well there are a few reasons, and I would stress I'm not justifying any of them.

Firstly the Middle East is famous for its retoric. You can't sneeze in the region without someone taking to the streets to proclaim you are going to hell. Thankfully (hopefully) these types of violent protests are largely ignored by the general population who quite frankly have better things to be doing. But because they make great TV you will see them splashed all over Sky New.

Saying that there does seems to be a growing large scale resentment towards the Christian West in the Middle East. The reasons are not hard to see. Since 9/11 the West, lead by the US have invaded and toppled 2 Middle Eastern governments and killed countless Muslims. Now the rational justifications for the Afgan war, and the Iraq war might easily roll off George Bush's tounge, but they don't enter the ear of a Muslim in say Syria, Iran or Paskistan quite as easily. With major f**k ups like Iraq showing that the west is either completely incompendent or at worst out to invade the Middle East anti-western feeling is riff in the Middle East.

Put litterally they feel under threat, under siege, from the west, which has always been associated with Christianity. To a fundamentalist Muslim who takes his religion very seriously it would be very hard to even phaton that the motivations of western countries and leaders with regard to the Middle East were not a reflection of Christianity, since his life would be a reflection of his religion (or at least his interpretation of said religion).

Which is why the Pope's comments are going to add fuel to the fire. A lot of people in the middle east genuinely believe that the Christian west is out to rid the world or at least the oil rich middle east, of Islam. If you ask them to justify that rather irrational claim all they have to do is point to Afganistian, Israel, Iraq, Lebenon as proof that the west is out to get them.

5uspect wrote:

I think Islam is a cruel and intolerant belief (as are all of them).

How then would you explain the Muslims who are not cruel and intolerant (I know a few)?

Do they not follow the religion?

5uspect

Wicknight wrote:

How then would you explain the Muslims who are not cruel and intolerant (I know a few)?

Do they not follow the religion?

I know its a terrible generalization, I base this personal view on the brutal aspects (yes by our western standards) of sharia law. I know there are many muslims who are good decent people, I'm not denying this.

Wicknight wrote:

Do they not follow the religion?

It depends who you ask doesn't it? Thats the problem with religion and a whole other debate!

I see your point about the middle east viewed through the lens that is sky news, I agree.

lostexpectation

my question now having read the pope thingy is that sins seem to more importnat then reason to catholics

Zombrex

lostexpectation wrote:

my question now having read the pope thingy is that sins seem to more importnat then reason to catholics

The Pope has already said that he would rather everyone in Africa die of AIDS but have eternal after life than for him to encourage condom usage and have them damned for eternity. Or something like that.

This isn' really someone I would listen to with regard to Islam, or anything for that matter.

I mean you can find 101 right wing talk show hosts in the US who will also tell you that Islam is a violent religion. Just because they may stumle across a correct statement every once and while that isn't a reason to pay them much heed.

I support the right of the Pope to say anything he likes as a person. He is still a f**king moron. As such I wouldn't listen to his opinon about cooking an egg, let alone Islam.

pH

As you probably have read a number of Christian churches in Palestine were firebombed.

In a phone call to The Associated Press, a group calling itself the "Lions of Monotheism" claimed responsibility for those attacks, saying they were carried out to protest the Pope's remarks in a speech this week in Germany linking Islam and violence.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060916.wgaza0916/BNStory/International/home

UU

Wicknight wrote:

The Pope has already said that he would rather everyone in Africa die of AIDS but have eternal after life than for him to encourage condom usage and have them damned for eternity. Or something like that.

This isn' really someone I would listen to with regard to Islam, or anything for that matter.

I mean you can find 101 right wing talk show hosts in the US who will also tell you that Islam is a violent religion. Just because they may stumle across a correct statement every once and while that isn't a reason to pay them much heed.

I support the right of the Pope to say anything he likes as a person. He is still a f**king moron. As such I wouldn't listen to his opinon about cooking an egg, let alone Islam.

Yes I agree with you too. I really dislike the Pope and he doesn't represent Jesus on Earth as he's supposed to but then again I don't care much for Jesus so I'd be indifferent to the whole concept.

As regarding Islam, I'm sure there are good Muslims and obviously wicked Muslims too like everywhere one has good and evil. A lot of stuff in Islam, I don't agree with a lot of it such as stoning women for committing adultry, hanging homosexuals, imprisoning Christian converts and non-Muslims. There are morals in the Qur'an which any civilised person today should surely find poisonous. Also, I don't think Mohammed is a holy prophet at all. From reading the Qur'an he seemed very wicked, inhumane and violent. I think Muslims are too hyper-sensitive if anyone dares to say anything bad about their religion yet many of them complain about our Western world full of "infidels". Some say that "our" women are all prostitutes and preach hatred about Christianity, Judaism and secularism and liberal values.

The thing is, myself, the Pope and anyone else has the right to speak out against things we don't agree with even if it offends some people because that is the whole thing behind living in a secular and democratic society. Of course, most Muslim-ruled countries aren't democratic and fail to understand "free-speech".