Sweden goes centre-right...

...ending 12 years of the Social Democrats and a successful period in Government.

Guess, like Ireland, voter fatigue is always a factor notwithstanding unprecedented economic success.

DadaKopf

'Unprecedented economic success'? A country with high tax rates and post-WWII-like social spending?

Never. :rolleyes:

I always got the impression that Swedes know they have it good and don't want to loose it. I wonder whether this has more to do with, as you say, voters just wanting a change for the sake of it - not feeling that there's anywhere else to go. On the other hand, it could be some anti-immigant backlash.

lostexpectation

I don't know how succesful they have been, there a quote on the BBC that says

We need to deregulate the labour market. We need to accept that some people have success and get rich

ah yes this famous choice, choice or the rich meaning even less for the poor

how did the pirate party do?

DadaKopf

Ah yes, the freedom to choose between twenty-one different kinds of blue cheese, but not knowing whether you'll have a job tomorrow.

The whiff of freedom.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

In my time in Scandanaiva, I've always felt it to be a far more equal state than Ireland because they put people first and profit second. The tax is very high, yes, but it was always put back into the community in terms of infrastructure, sports facilities and so on. Would you rather pay 40% in the knowledge that it's going to be reinvested back in the community, or 20% where it disappears down a black hole?

Would you pay more for a more equal state or are you happy with the inequalites because you're all right, Jack?

bonkey

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Funny, I was thinking the same, despite never having lived there.

Switzerland is a similar example. People here have one of the highest standards of living in the world. And you know what happens? They look at the nations surrounding us, and decide "our supermarkets should be as cheap as the French or German ones".

So they get dissillusioned with the system. They want cheaper meat. They want cheaper veg. Their healthcare is too expensive.

OF course, when they demand these changes, and they start getting them, what happens? They complain that they're being asked to take paycuts to become competetive with the very markets they wanted to be competetive with.

Bottom line - no-one is happy. Everyone cherry-picks what they should have. Have the best standard of living in the world? Be unhappy that you, personally, don't have the German autobahns, the Swiss medical care, the Norwegian social security, and whatever other cherry-picked best-of-the best combination you want. Oh, and obviously we should all have rock-star salaries, pay Wal-Mart prices for top-of-the-range goods, and all the rest of it.

Just look at Ireland. Came top (or close to the top) of the "best places to live" time after time the last few years, and what do you see on boards.ie? A load of people posting about how stupid such classifications are because everyone has something better than us. Meanwhile, they're all looking at it proably thinking "Oh, and add the Irish Economy to the list of things I should have".

[quotedadkopf]On the other hand, it could be some anti-immigant backlash.[/quote]
That's where my money would be.

Just like in Ireland, immigrants should apparently either suffer at home or be someone else's problem. Anyone not offering that as a solution is becoming increasingly unpopular in elections Europe-wide.

jc

DadaKopf

Yes, Dave, I have been to Sweden. Been to all the Nordic states and lived in Finland. But having a girlfriend who worked there may give authority to what she says, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're right.

I'm well aware that there is a growing ideological divide between big-staters and small-staters (often the small-staters, like Johan Norberg, have rubbish arguments). Historically, Swedish development is corporatist - that being a careful working out of power between government, companies and workers.

But from what I saw and read, most Swedes, given the choice between having or not having good social provisions, I'm sure they'd go for the former. Swedish political identity is still wedded to the principle of 'equality' (something our government has all but abandoned), and therefore, political parties have to play suit. Most people in Sweden - the working classes - are used to redistributive benefits. Most won't want to give them up. If the cultural tide is organically shifting towards a more liberalised economy, fine, if they want it, but I don't see much evidence that the current state of things there is crowding out entrepreneurship - here's an obvious example: look at all the boutique Swedish furniture. As you say quite confusingly, "People there have little entrepreneurial spirit because it's so much easier to go into the private sector or alternatively go into one of the big Swedish companies which are just like the private sector too" - so the private sector is alive and well :rolleyes:. Swedish growth has always kept up with UK growth - so it's not a matter of economics. And I'm sure your average Swede knows that.

This isn't the beginning of a massive turning-point in Swedish economics. It's the expression of marginal dissatisfaction with a government that's gone a wee bit too far for the public's taste. As you say, "a bit more economic freedom". A 'bit'. Maybe it's a reaction to different issues - a government perceived as being ineffective because it can't manage immigration (although liberalisation will accelerate this). Or it's just grass-is-always-greenerism.

Personally I thought they had it better in many ways but people there were definitely 'playing it safe' and not taking risks with their jobs etc.

I wouldn't mind you unpacking this a bit.

Oh, and for the record, I did sense something smothering about those countries. But that's my Irish reaction to another culture, and others may legitimately find nothing wrong with that.

Cantab.

Just to give an example of how backward Ireland is compared to Sweden - well, Sweden has 3 lane highway between its three major cities (Stockholm, Malmo and Goteborg).

We're a nation of fools here in Ireland. We've never been able to stand on our own two feet economically. We've had our chance for the last 10 years to make somethings right in this country, but all we're left with is traffic jams, toll roads and high tax (even higher than in Sweden according to my Swedish office neighbour - he informs me that both his tax and insurance are about 20% of Irish levels).

Here's what the NRA should be aspiring to:
http://trafikinfo2.vv.se/datexmap/map.aspx?Culture=en

We still don't have a motorway to Cork, and all we've got planned are more toll gates. This country has gotten drunk on borrowed money from Europe, and there's one hell of a hangover coming our way - there'll be no FDI from the US nor EU cohesion funds to bail us out next time round.

Cantab.

Cantab. wrote:

We've had our chance for the last 10 years to make somethings right in this country, but all we're left with is traffic jams, toll roads and high tax (even higher than in Sweden according to my Swedish office neighbour - he informs me that both his tax and insurance are about 20% of Irish levels).

I am assuming you and he are based in Ireland and clearly hew preferred to work here than at home.

Given allegations regarding Swedish employmewnt figures (some allege up to 20% unemploymentfigures have been massaged down to 6% by the Government) I guess one thing that you could point out to him is that having fewer people going to work tends to take a lot of traffic off the road...

bonkey

Cantab. wrote:

Just to give an example of how backward Ireland is compared to Sweden - well, Sweden has 3 lane highway between its three major cities (Stockholm, Malmo and Goteborg).

When was it built? How long did it take? How much did it cost?

What sort of costs does the rest of the national infrastructure impose?

These questions are utterly central to the issue of whether or not this example is applicable at all, in case you're wondering.

We're a nation of fools here in Ireland.

Why?

We've never been able to stand on our own two feet economically.

That makes us historically poor, not foolish.

We've had our chance for the last 10 years to make somethings right in this country, but all we're left with is traffic jams, toll roads and high tax

Correct....because as everyone knows, we actually earned enough in the past 10 years to offset over half a century of underinvestment and being poor, and the rapid acquisition of wealth brings no pressures of its own that also need to be considered.

No...wait...none of that is true. I made it all up.

Maybe you can explain to me why you're making a valid comparison here, because I can't see it at all.

(even higher than in Sweden according to my Swedish office neighbour - he informs me that both his tax and insurance are about 20% of Irish levels).

Well, if your neighbour says it, it must be true.

Pity there's no way of actually finding this stuff out as facts. If only there were some searchable global information network where one could find facts about various subjects. It would be like the ultimate encyclopedia, where national tax rates would rank amongst the most trivial things one could search for.

Oh well...in the absence of such a technological marvel, we'll just have to believe what you tell us your "office neighbour" has told you.

jc

Cantab.

Deleted User wrote:

I am assuming you and he are based in Ireland and clearly hew preferred to work here than at home.

Your wrong. We both work in a Swedish company and he is here on a 6 month assignment to implement new systems here in Dublin. He is shocked by the traffic situation and the amount of road tax we pay.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Not so much a nation of fools, but a nation who hasn't managed to plan ahead yet. We're a very greedy nation when push comes to shove, but that's they way the country is run. We want it NOW and we don't want to have to worry about how many cars are going to be on the roads in 2012 or how we're going to get from A to B if oil prices skyrocket, or how we're going to pay our mortgages if there's a recession and we lose our jobs.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sgt. Sensible

bonkey wrote:

That makes us historically poor, not foolish.

Sweden was once as poor as Ireland and suffered famines and mass emigration at the same time we did. However Sweden embraced capitalism and (even more importantly) socialism while post-independence Ireland chose not to. Nowadays it's common to blame the catholic church, De Valera and so on for the mess and forget that people voted freely for that mess over and over again. So yes, I would say the Irish were foolish. And they still are.

spooiirt!!

I read that Sweden used to have continued pay in times of Illness, ( Ireland doesnt, right?), ie your sick and dont work but still get paid for that day. Then they abolished that and the number of sick days taken dropped by 50%.