Discussion on intolerance [PLEASE READ]

Victor

I've noted over the recent past that some people here are becoming more and more abusive towards transport workers. This has upset a number of people who feel they are being unfairly branded. I think everyone is open to fair criticism of transport workers and officials, but sometimes the line is crossed into abuse.

I'm looking for comments.

bk

Hey, who locked on the threads in this forum and why?

Navan Junction

Just wondering about that

shltter

I presume the most recent posts branding all taxi drivers as arrogant racist thieves is the kind of thing you are refering to.
Why we cannot have a discussion about the new taxi regulations or the tactics the taxi drivers are using without the resort to stereotyping and name calling is beyond me.
I have to say that in general it appears to be people who are breezing in here to let of steam at some recent annoyance and dont have any interest in discussing transport issues beyond ranting.

Wishbone Ash

Maybe a mod was disciplined/reprimanded so all the others downed tools in support? (Well it is the transport forum).

Victor

bk wrote:

Hey, who locked on the threads in this forum and why?

Because I would like people to concentrate on this thread for the next 24 hours or so.

I, nor the rest of the mods would like to be banning more people, so I'd like this discussion to be broad and not just ignored and allowed drop down the list.

garred

A nice gesture Victor, for what its worth it does'nt bother me. I can't speak for the other taxi drivers who are members but at the end of the day it is an internet forum so you cant take it personally. I do agree with some of the posts but there are the odd few that are just rants, but hey everyone is entitled to their point of view.
I feel these threads are handled well not just by the mods but also by a lot of the other posters who make their points well and fair whether they are pro/anti the taxi industry. A lot of posters are frustrated by recent events and I have to say I can't blame them.
If you think the last taxi post in this forum was turning abusive you should of seen the one in AH.
Just my tupence worth.

I wish I was locked too:)

rushbrook

a forum is for people to express it's view , most of the views are going to be negative and most people between work and logging on here have had to commute.
I know my complete frustration at cie and their complete ignorance of abiding by a timetable that only gives me a train once an hour but from reading this forum at least I don't have to drive to work. what is the alternative in venting your anger ? at least here u get heard.
if someone is offended then let them state their case here in this forum

Navan Junction

I have never witnessed online after school detention before...!;)

Kashkai

shltter wrote:

I presume the most recent posts branding all taxi drivers as arrogant racist thieves is the kind of thing you are refering to.
Why we cannot have a discussion about the new taxi regulations or the tactics the taxi drivers are using without the resort to stereotyping and name calling is beyond me.
I have to say that in general it appears to be people who are breezing in here to let of steam at some recent annoyance and dont have any interest in discussing transport issues beyond ranting.

There's usually no problem with discussing transport issues generally. Bus men and train drivers do their jobs 99.9% of the time and bus drivers in particular will wave or give a thumbs up when they are allowed to pull out of bus lanes into traffic (common courtesy I suppose). I've never gotten an acknowledgement from a taxi driver when I let them pull out into the car lanes.

The current problem is taxi drivers feeling they have a right to protest but they don't believe that people should have a right to get annoyed when their daily commute is further lengthened by taximen blocking the capital's main street and the knock on disruption this causes to every other street in the city centre.

Taxi fares in this country are high by international standards but the level of service is poor. There should be a certain minimum standard of car - some countries have Mercs as the standard car (Canary Islands for example) but a decent Avensis would do here.

After house prices, the usual topic of conversation these days is the daily commute. Why make it harder on people trying to get from A to B. If taximen want to protest, then find out where Ger Deering lives and protest outside his house and leave the rest of us to get on with our commute home.

SeanW

First of all, I feel that it is an abuse of mod power to mass lock all the threads except this. It was over the top and uncalled for.

Also, I hope this board isn't going to turn into a sissy forum where no-one can speak their mind, I agree that there should be some standards, but general opinionated commentary is ok by me, regardless of who gets offended.

In my view, most of those on the receiving end of strong comments (or 'abuse' as you call it) had it coming, like people who do lightening strikes and cause a blockade or something, taximen, Cork based Irish Rail staff and management, or someone (like Irish Rail management or the politicians) who are completely and totally incompetent.

Ireland's transport system is a second rate mess in just about every way, and the opinions of posters here will reflect that.

Even those seeking to correct this are not immune to criticism. Like Platform 11, whose members were practically chased away from IRN by transpotter/whinger loonies, even here on boards by a certain mod who rhetorically asked "Is P11 Anti Public Transport?" like he expected Mark, Derek etc to say "No we oppose the WRC because we want all the culchies to drive everywhere." Well if that's how you feel well fine that's your perogative, the P11 crew quickly set the record straight - which is what happens when there is open, honest and frank debate.

So I don't see the emergency over "intolerance." So sometimes people get offended. Big deal. And if someone want to call me names, I don't care. Personally, when I see someone who deserves a keyboard-lashing, I'm going to continue to say what's on my mind, and I hope everyone else will too. It is best for all.

Wishbone Ash

Prosperous Dave wrote:

If taximen want to protest, then find out where Ger Deering lives and protest outside his house and leave the rest of us to get on with our commute home.

I would much prefer to see them protesting in O'Connell Street than at an individual's private residence. The taxi drivers' grievence is with Mr Deering in his public capacity as taxi regulator, not against him as a private citizen or his family. I'm sure 99% of taxi drivers will concur.

Red Alert

I haven't a bad word to say about any bus drivers at all, they do a difficult job dealing with a lot of nasty passengers and nastier and thicker management in DB. Well done guys (and girls).

I also have many times foregone the Nitelink and got a taxi. In most cases the drivers were great, and a few times I've had very interesting conversations. It's the taxi drivers union (which many of the newer lads are not in) which is causing the problems IMHO.

That said, I think the ineptitude of bad managers which seem to infest the DAA, Dublin Bus and particularly Irish Rail is what has got our transport sector in a mess. Therefore yes i'm tolerent, i'm intolerent towards these suits who have no idea how to run a transport service and are more interested in whatever font-changing marketing gimmick they can come up with.

secret_squirrel

Victor wrote:

I'm looking for comments.

Here's a comment - locking every other thread on this is the most blatant abuse of mod powers I've seen on boards. Im shocked and stunned you would sink so low.

You have an issue with people becoming abusive on the Taxi thread an transport threads in general?

How much more abusive is it to show such shocking ignorance as to prevent the regular posters here - who have made this one of the better forums on boards - from posting in their favourite threads and engaging in freely expressing their views.

You want to talk about intolerance? Lets talk about yours.

I think there has been an increasing element of heat in a few threads lately, but thats only to be expected when people disagree strongly and others are passionately defending their corners. Whats wrong with slapping a few bans and warnings out until they come to their senses?

In your quest for tolerance you need to be very very careful you dont kill the spirit of this forum with a massively over the top reaction to a problem thread/user.

Im shocked you felt you had to stoop this low, I really am. - You're too good a mod to need to do this.

WhiteWashMan

Victor wrote:

I've noted over the recent past that some people here are becoming more and more abusive towards transport workers. This has upset a number of people who feel they are being unfairly branded. I think everyone is open to fair criticism of transport workers and officials, but sometimes the line is crossed into abuse.

I'm looking for comments.

people are entitled to their opinion.

dictating what people can and cannot comment on is not what boards.ie is about.

what line has been crossed that means that an entire forum of threads have to be locked?

this is possibly the most rediculous thing i have seen ona forum yet tbh.

Red Alert

i had not seen the extent to which threads had been locked until after i posted above.

this is an absolute abuse of power, i have never seen this on any other board. it is an insult to those of use who happily disagree with one another and use these boards to thrash something out.

i learn more in general from those i disagree with - are you trying to create some sort of utopian don't ask don't tell setup here?

Hotblack Desiato

Unprecendented (afaik), unwarranted, intolerable.

If just taxi abuse threads were locked I could understand.

We might as well abolish the C/T forum if justified criticism of IE / DB / BE / Taxis / etc /etc / were prohibited.

Not a happy bunny right now!

embraer170

I agree with most of what is said above.
Never seen anything like this on a forum before.

Transport21 Fan

Who are these people who feel transport workers are being unfairly branded and what percentage of this board do they represent? What's wrong with them making their rebuttals in threads? Why this need to offend the intelligence of the vast majority of posters here.

Why this special favour to them and the rest of the board members punished for some having a negative opinion on some aspects of transport workers in this country?

Please ban me, I would consider it an honour.

Transport21 Fan

Red Alert wrote:

i had not seen the extent to which threads had been locked until after i posted above.

this is an absolute abuse of power, i have never seen this on any other board. it is an insult to those of use who happily disagree with one another and use these boards to thrash something out.

i learn more in general from those i disagree with - are you trying to create some sort of utopian don't ask don't tell setup here?

What he said.

FlutterinBantam

Shurely shome mishtsake

bk

Victor wrote:

Because I would like people to concentrate on this thread for the next 24 hours or so.

I, nor the rest of the mods would like to be banning more people, so I'd like this discussion to be broad and not just ignored and allowed drop down the list.

This is the most outrageous and shocking abuse of the mod powers that I have ever seen, I'm simply speechless, shocked and stunned.

When I first saw all the threads locked I thought it was some technical problem, now that I know the truth I'm outraged at this action.

It is the job of a mod to keep discussions flowing in an open manner, allowing people to express their opinions and debate them with others. A mod should only use their power to ban and lock threads in extreme cases when someone steps over the line and makes insulting or threatening marks (attacking the poster instead of the post), or otherwise breaking the stated rules.

Ideally mods should be involved as little as possible, but you have stepped way over the line with this, it is completely uncalled for.

I'm sorry Victor, but I feel you should step down as mod of this forum, a mod needs to have the trust and respect of all the regular posters to the forum and I'm afraid you have stepped way over the line.

BTW A thread about this has been started in the Feedback forum:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054990853

billy the squid

I think it is a great idea

If people cannot post in a civilised manner and infractions of the rules are rampant then taking the forum away for 24 hours cannot ba a bad thing. The fact that this thread exists demonstrates that the mod is not happy with how widespread the hostility is on this board, and wants to bring the users attention to it.

It is only for 24 hours, and afterwards, people might think before they type in order to prevent it happening again.

lostexpectation

If I didn't agree with Victors sentiments I'd be very annoyed. I know victor and ther other mods like to keep a standard in this forum, Maybe you should temporary point to the offending posts.

Locking all threads was ott, a sticky would have done.

Our man in Havana

WhiteWashMan wrote:

people are entitled to their opinion.

dictating what people can and cannot comment on is not what boards.ie is about.

what line has been crossed that means that an entire forum of threads have to be locked?

this is possibly the most rediculous thing i have seen ona forum yet tbh.

For once i totally agree with WWM.

MG

Fair play to Victor for making a stand.

If this is to do with taxi drivers, then they certainly deserve the criticism and disrespect their counterproductive actions have brought down on themselves. However, clearly some of the posts noted here go well beyond reasonable and far criticism.

In general, the transport forum has become a desert of reasoned debate and an ocean of ego, aggressive posturing and a form of angst filled gang culture. While I can understand frustration with transport in this country, I now hesitate to post here for these reasons.

Red Alert

I'd much prefer if Victor had made a link to a thread or two which he deems 'intolerent' and chastised the people involved. So for example if he said something like 'Red Alert said that Barry Kenny kills kittens' and said anything like it would be banned. However he hasn't, and this thread has descended into a rant.

If anybody else (a non mod) posted this thread about intolerence on any other forum it would end up in the recycle bin.

What makes this board great is that there is a big mix of pretty well informed people. For example there's nothing MarkoP11 doesn't seem to know! I confess to being a bus expert myself. There are many with strongly held opinions, such as T21Fan - who although I disagree with on regular occasions really contributes to this board.

Of course you're going to get a good heated debate going here, but would you turn on primetime / questions and answers if all they did was agree with one another? No you wouldn't!

If you are trying to kill this forum you are going the right way about it. You were a super mod, but my confidence in you has been destroyed.

Hobbes

I am of the belief the moderator is not the forum. Your there to stop muppets. Removing the ability for anyone to discuss anything in the forum is not the way to go about it.

You end up alienating nearly all your members in one go.

RuggieBear

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Champ

Regarding the sweeping thread lockdown:
There was plenty of nasty things been said, though words only have as much power as you give them. I think it was just mainly letting off general frustration (especially with the taxi strike in Dublin) rather than a targetted, planned attack. Besides which good public transport workers would know better than to take such negative comments down to heart. It might raise a few eyebrows online, but its been my experience that people tend to me considerably more verbose online than in person.

Regarding public transport personnel:
You obviously get your wonderful ones and ones that shouldn't be allowed in public service at all. I've used the buses for many years and probably can recognise most drivers at this stage. They can vary quite a bit in quality but i always maintain the polite decorum of allowing them to do their jobs and keeping the peace until my journey is done and always be defacto wishing them a good day / thanking them, and i've had no problems.

Remember these folks may have some secure jobs but have to deal with the public at large which can be consistenly stressful due to ignorance, skangers or just plain arrogant people. I've seen abuse hurdled at drivers when they maintained the no standing policy on coaches or near fights with skangers when they enforced the no smoking rule, or just simple unruly kids seemingly intent on ripping the bus to pieces.

If your not happy with taxis (or other public transport) don't use them.:) I don't like them for numerous reasons and don't use them. I don't bother them and they don't bother me and we get on just fine.;) Though the reaction of the Dubliners affected by the strike was both predictable and expected.

The negative perception situation is just aggravated by union strikes for the most questionable of reasons at times. Okay i may be a bit naive asking this but why not just get another job if your not happy??? Be it poor wages or just terrible conditions i'd be outta there asap.:)

mortimer33

As has been said already - I think its unfair to tarnish all taxi drivers with the same brush...

However:
1. I think Taxi's are VERY expensive - therefore I rarely get them.
2. I hate the fact that they try to cause some disruption whenever they go on strike by blocking roads. Surely they must realise its bad press?? Why can't they just withdraw their services like everyone else?

A Dub in Glasgo

It is quite funny to see the massive over-reation from some members to the over-reation from the mods. stunned? speechless? shocked? outraged? intolerable? for a 24 hour lock on all threads... get some perspective on life!

dowlingm

seems like some folk here are in withdrawal. it's the mods trainset (literally) and if Victor wants to impose a timeout you guys can apply for a refund.

As for the point at issue - it's true that individual transport workers might feel slighted at the bashing they get here. The problem in Ireland is that there are many agendas in transport between users, managers, politicians and workers and part of those agendas are to blame other groups rather than accept the failings on one's own.

There is no such thing as the national interest and sides choose to run out the clock on negotiations and paralyze the country rather than be seen to compromise. Then the individual manager/driver/backbencher takes it in the neck for the failings of their upper management/union bosses/ministers.

Meanwhile the users blame all of the above while in the knowledge that if taxes or fares have to be raised to fix any problems they'll be threatening to vote for the other guy who's promising the world for less money.

The attitude of a lot of people here seems to be "I can say what I want - it's free speech" - well as Victor just proved, no it's not, and second there's way too few people willing to be persuaded one way or the other rather than the preconceived, badly informed notion they want to blast out.

secret_squirrel

dowlingm wrote:

seems like some folk here are in withdrawal. it's the mods trainset (literally)

Wrong. Its the Admins trainset, the Mods have just been asked to work the signals for a bit.

A Dub in Glasgo

secret_squirrel wrote:

Wrong. Its the Admins trainset, the Mods have just been asked to work the signals for a bit.

A signaller decides train regulation on the owners behalf

spareman

In fairness to the mod I can see where his coming from, myself a Dublin bus driver, anytime I have tried to give my point of view to situations, Ive been shot down by union hating folk here, Which in time may result in me not bothering to post here. I dont get paid to post excuses for failures in the bus system, I just give a view from my side of the fence, and sometimes I wonder if people even read them before replying, Some people here have a deep hatred for Dublin bus management and unions, which is fair enough but if your not willing to listen to our side of the story why should we bother being here?
Anyone here know why the taximen are unhappy? What changes do they face?

SeanW

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

A signaller decides train regulation on the owners behalf

The signallers had a family crisis in Mallow.
STRIKE!

Slice

Victor: I've noted over the recent past that some people here are becoming more and more abusive towards transport workers. This has upset a number of people who feel they are being unfairly branded. I think everyone is open to fair criticism of transport workers and officials, but sometimes the line is crossed into abuse.

If this is true why are such comments not being addressed on a case-by-case basis instead of being raised in this way? I personally think everyone has as much a right to hear other people's opinions as they have to express their own and generally speaking if anything that's said is said outside of reason it's either addressed by other posters or else ignored by them. Sometimes good arguments/counter-arguments come out of bad points raised.

jkgvfg

I'm with the mod on this.

I'm taking it his point of attack is on "people here are becoming more and more abusive" rather than just when it is "towards transport workers" and I do think some of the posts were over the top, no matter where it was directed - taxi drivers, Iarnroid Eireann staff, Michael O'Leary...

At least the mod's actions got people to notice and think about it without seriously affecting them, unlike what some of the abusive criticism was about - the taxi drivers strike!!

I am not a transport worker - I'm just a frustrated transport user who would disagree with what the taxi drivers are doing and the way they are doing it, would rarely if ever support anything coming from unions or the public service and would feel the Minister for Transport should resign, along with the rest of the Government, over the waste of public resources in relation to transport. But it's nothing personal against any of them even if I (rightly or wrongly) tarnish the lot of them with the one brush.

And I never believed that "free speech" meant you could say what you wanted, wherever you wanted.

Red Alert

What's more annoying is that after his little thread-lock cherade, Victor has not reappeared at all to give his take on this.

This is a rude snub to those of us who answered his petulant question.

secret_squirrel

Red Alert wrote:

What's more annoying is that after his little thread-lock cherade, Victor has not reappeared at all to give his take on this.

This is a rude snub to those of us who answered his petulant question.

I agree - he posted on PI on Sat and has been logged in today - the least he could do would be to acknowledge and try to defend what he did.

corktina

secret_squirrel wrote:

I agree - he posted on PI on Sat and has been logged in today - the least he could do would be to acknowledge and try to defend what he did.

I dont beeelieve it......:(

Rev Hellfire

Perhaps Victor is preoccupied with something else offline. I'm pretty sure it’s not a case of avoiding the issue. He would have known and expected such a response before the lockdown started.

His job here is to facility discussion on the forum and I'm sure that was the reason he did what he did. I myself believe it to have been misguided but I do understand the reasoning that was behind it. I suppose it’s the online equivalent of a bring to order motion.

On the actual subject in hand while its certainly true that you cannot tar a whole profession because of the actions of a few, those in the transport section should be aware that when they do for example instigate the withdrawal of services and/or attempt to create chaos for commuters. The knock on effect of their actions can be more than just an inconvenience to the public, but can result in financial loss for those who are on the clock. And in the case of extended withdrawals of the public transport services the very real risk of job losses for some sectors does exist.
So if you provide what is an extremely important service that impacts people in a very real and tangible manner you must expect them to be that bit more critical of the service they are dependent upon.