Welfare fraud from non-nationals

janullrich

It is disgraceful the way some non-nationals have got away with defrauding the welfare system. They should certainly never be allowed back into this country. It is more commonplace then before particularly around where I live in Blanchardstown. The government should step up deportations of people who do not know or care about the rules of the land.

Rabies

What about the Irish people that do it? Can we send them to the North Pole without a fuel allowance?

MrJoeSoap

Rabies wrote:

What about the Irish people that do it? Can we send them to the North Pole without a heating/fuel allowance?

Was just gonna say the same thing.

Ruu_Old

Rabies wrote:

What about the Irish people that do it? Can we send them to the North Pole without a fuel allowance?

Indeed. Any links or facts on this issue OP?

Dord

Rabies wrote:

What about the Irish people that do it? Can we send them to the North Pole without a fuel allowance?

exactly, that was what i was thinking too. You can't blame any one race on anything, every country has bad & good people.

i hate when people do this, "those [insert country here] are stealing all our [insert problem here - jobs/women/money/other rubbish] and theyre coming over here illegally"

these threads pop up all the time here, its annoying

Mossy Monk

janullrich wrote:

It is disgraceful the way some non-nationals have got away with defrauding the welfare system

yeah damn those non nationals :rolleyes:
why don't you rephrase your post to also show your disgust at Irish people who do it or is it that you don't care about Irish people committing fraud?

Dyr

Speaking of fraud and foreign johnnies, i was walking up the ballymun road there at the weekend and i see a squad car has pulled up and the shickelownies are out talking to these two eastern european types, as im walking towards them one of the cops is holding a document or something up to the light " how odd" i thought, as I pass them by I see its actually a hundred euro note that the cop is holding up and he's repeating "this is'nt real money where did you get it?". I'm pretty sure the other cop had a load of greenies in his hand too. Of course, Ivan is playing dumb about it all :rolleyes:

Anyway this is how those "friend of a friend" stories start, ye know the ones certain people here insist are never true

ThrownAway

They need to make a living.

accensi0n

janullrich wrote:

It is disgraceful the way some non-nationals have got away with defrauding the welfare system. They should certainly never be allowed back into this country. It is more commonplace then before particularly around where I live in Blanchardstown. The government should step up deportations of people who do not know or care about the rules of the land.

Links? Facts? figures?

Ratio between foreigners and the irish that do it?

Rabies

accensi0n wrote:

Links? Facts? figures?

Ratio between foreigners and the irish that do it?

Give the poor guy a chance. He needs to contact the CSO for the true facts and figures.
Does it matter, THEY are still criminals no matter what.

Sangre

If they're declared asylums they've every right to claim.

Guy:Incognito

Rabies wrote:

What about the Irish people that do it? Can we send them to the North Pole without a fuel allowance?

While I dont agree with the ranty nataure of "get the bloody foreigners out" ( my mother came over here when there were very few) , theres a certain allowance for home grown chancers, people tend to resent the importation of spongers.

Generally people wont have an issue with hard working foreigners (the Polish seem to be fairly well liked) but dont tend to look too kindly on a lot of people from africa because they generally see them coming out od the dole office and haning around all day (ie not working).

Sangre wrote:

If they're declared asylums they've every right to claim.

Theres a failign in the system. Not just for foreigners , but the dole system in general.

Whatever way people want to look at it, while we are a magnet for hard working types who want to earn decent money, we are a bigger target for the freeloading , "i want free money" types because of our immigration and hand out systems. Theres a reason we have much higher rates of immigrants than other coutries and anyone thinking they're coming here to interact with the charming locals is kidding themselves.

toomevara

Just for a little perspective,Welfare fraud was distilled to an fine art by the Irish in London in the 80's...we were the uber-fiddlers of Kilburn and Camden. Course we tended to justify it as one in the eye for the brits...a continuation of the economic war by proxy, ha ha how we laughed.. we quickly ploughed it all back in to the local offy/gin mill though....practically EVERYONE was at it.....

Blackjack

Article on the front page of todays Irish times - you have a few minutes to check it out before if to subscription only.

Guy:Incognito

toomevara wrote:

Just for a little perspective,Welfare fraud was distilled to an fine art by the Irish in London in the 80's...we were the uber-fiddlers of Kilburn and Camden. Course we tended to justify it as one in the eye for the brits...a continuation of the economic war by proxy, ha ha how we laughed.. we quickly ploughed it all back in to the local offy/gin mill though....practically EVERYONE was at it.....

This is the same arguement that came up about the irish illegals in america. You cant pass off whats going on here by saying "but the irsh did it elsewhere". What the irish do in other countries is a problem for those countries, it's not for us to use as an example to cover up our problems.

Delboy05

accensi0n wrote:

Links? Facts? figures?

Ratio between foreigners and the irish that do it?

does no one read the papers before they jump into posts like this!!!!
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2006/0911/1156791558637.html

is anyone really surprised at this!!!! 1 nigerian cpl run a 4 star hotel in lagos and call over a few times a year to make sure the welfare thinks they're still here.
Another cpl get rent allowance and child benfit of 3k a month depite the husband been a fully qualified doctor in Belfast general.

We're the laugh of the asylum seeking world. Did anyone really believe that we were getting all those asylum seekers, who passed through several safe countried to get here, because of our good weather!!!

toomevara

Stekelly wrote:

This is the same arguement that came up about the irish illegals in america. You cant pass off whats going on here by saying "but the irsh did it elsewhere". What the irish do in other countries is a problem for those countries, it's not for us to use as an example to cover up our problems.

The simple fact is that any welfare system in a well developed western society will be subject to inevitable and inescapable levels of fraud. The vast majority of welfare fraud/fiddling in Ireland is perpetrated not by nigerian bogeymen or stereotypically 'wicked' asylum seekers.

No way sister! Its your friendly neighbourhood (Irish) skangerman and his mates, all quintessentially workshy, uneducated, unemployable and extremely fertile, who are depriving the state of our well earned tax euros. i merely draw attention to the well documented Irish history of diddling the welfare to keep us humble and tame the worst excesses of our tendancy of late to mount our high horses at the least provocation....

Tha Gopher

Stekelly wrote:

While I dont agree with the ranty nataure of "get the bloody foreigners out" ( my mother came over here when there were very few) , theres a certain allowance for home grown chancers, people tend to resent the importation of spongers.

Good God. Stekelly is of half foreign origin. For all we know, he is dark skinned because of it. But wait, he made a sensible comment in relation to this governments immigration policy? How in the name of God can the PC brigade react to this one? If they say something against it, theyre racist against Ste and his mother. If theyre pro his comments, theyre racist. Cant wait to hear this

Every thread where a young poster is shouted down for truthfully claiming that the amount of Poles etc prevents him from getting summer work reminds me of the time a Polish girl told me she thought our policy was mad, we were letting an economically unsafe amount of HER people in.

I should get her to post a thread on boards without mentioning her nationality, wait for the usual suspects to call her a Nazi, and then ask her to scan and post her Polski birth cert and passport and explain her position further.

But sure what would be the point in that? I cant count the amount of times Ive asked questions the PC boys refused to answer.

Guy:Incognito

toomevara wrote:

The simple fact is that any welfare system in a well developed western society will be subject to inevitable and inescapable levels of fraud. The vast majority of welfare fraud/fiddling in Ireland is perpetrated not by nigerian bogeymen or stereotypically 'wicked' asylum seekers.

No way sister! Its your friendly neighbourhood (Irish) skangerman and his mates, all quintessentially workshy, uneducated, unemployable and extremely fertile, who are depriving the state of our well earned tax euros. i merely draw attention to the well documented Irish history of diddling the welfare to keep us humble and tame the worst excesses of our tendancy of late to mount our high horses at the least provocation....

Hence why I said the dole system was flawed. Let there be a max claim time of 6 months in a 5 year period. People will have to go take the low paying jobs that they felt were below them or were just to lazy to get up off their arses and take.


Ill use 1 example of a guy who came into the shop I used to work in to buy a €2000 tv. He happened to be nigerian (it said so on his passport) He wanted finance, so we're going through the application and he gets to employement details and he asks is it ok that he doesnt work but is on welfare. I oldhim it wouldnt go through but we tried anyway. Inevitably he was declined but wasnt the least bit fazed and just says "ill be back in an hour with cash", sure enough he was. My point ot this is, if people on the dole/ whatever asylum seekers/foreigners get can afford €2k tv's , then there is a seriopus flaw in our system. (this wasnt an isolated incident btw)

Sangre

Delboy05 wrote:

does no one read the papers before they jump into posts like this!!!!
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2006/0911/1156791558637.html

is anyone really surprised at this!!!! 1 nigerian cpl run a 4 star hotel in lagos and call over a few times a year to make sure the welfare thinks they're still here.

We're the laugh of the asylum seeking world. Did anyone really believe that we were getting all those asylum seekers, who passed through several safe countried to get here, because of our good weather!!!

Yeah because flying return from Nigeria a couple of times a year is definitely worth what they would be claiming each year....

Hmm, I think a little blood just came out of my years after reading this post.

Guy:Incognito

Sangre wrote:

Yeah because flying return from Nigeria a couple of times a year is definitely worth what they would be claiming each year...

Not to state the obvious but thats a stupid thing to say, obviously it is worth it or they wouldnt be doing it, especially if they are getting anywhere near the €3k a month the doctors wife is getting , thats €36k a year btw . The fact that it's happening is a disgrace. But good to know all the same that we are helping to keep the hotels of nigerian in 4 ply toilet paper.

Delboy05

Sangre wrote:

Yeah because flying return from Nigeria a couple of times a year is definitely worth what they would be claiming each year....

Hmm, I think a little blood just came out of my years after reading this post.

read the papers mate....and open your eyes to whats goign on around you

Sangre

Stekelly wrote:

Not to state the obvious but thats a stupid thing to say, obviously it is worth it or they wouldnt be doing it, especially if they are getting anywhere near the €3k a month the doctors wife is getting , thats €36k a year btw . The fact that it's happening is a disgrace. But good to know all the same that we are helping to keep the hotels of nigerian in 4 ply toilet paper.

€7500 return each way for 2 people (only price (aer france)), several times a year? Thats roughly 30000 a year.

Mmm cheap! Social welfare always doles out that much.

stepbar

From my own experience of working in a social welfare office it is quite easy to "beat the system". One area that needs to be tightened up is the process of issuing PPS numbers. To get a PPS number all is needed is a passport or other form of id and proof of address (AFAIK certainly when I was there anyhow). The problem is that there is no actual mechanism for checking if the passport is real or not apart from actually ringing up the passports office. Chances are the person taking the claim wont have time and will have to use their intution and judgement. Its alright with a GNIB card cause they are fairly hard to fake. I remember one incident where a guy from one of the new EU states was caught trying to get a PPS number with a passport that was used before to get a PPS (Can rem specifics, They two guys must have looked alike or something ). Once you have the PPS number its easy street after that. And its not that hard to prove that you have an address either or get access to any amount of other addresses. People have friends and could have one in every postcode / any part of the country for all we know. There's nothing to say that foreign nationals are the only people "beating the system", im sure our own are at it too.

Tha Gopher

What if i want a new PPS number so as i can work 80 hours a week in two jobs, avoiding heavy tax and rubbish EU rules that dont take into account the cost of living here,

FunkyChicken

Why do the first couple of posts automatically class the OP as anti-foreign person? Maybe he thinks the Irish do, maybe he doesnt. It doesnt matter. He's asking about foreigners doing it. They do it. It doesnt matter if the Irish do it, the foreigners do it too and thats whats he's addressing.

billy the squid

toomevara wrote:

Just for a little perspective,Welfare fraud was distilled to an fine art by the Irish in London in the 80's...we were the uber-fiddlers of Kilburn and Camden. Course we tended to justify it as one in the eye for the brits...a continuation of the economic war by proxy, ha ha how we laughed.. we quickly ploughed it all back in to the local offy/gin mill though....practically EVERYONE was at it.....

I can attest to this, don't know how many times I was offered £100 or so for a birth cert by someone going to the UK.

solskjaer20

Non-nationals?
Non-nationals?

What so you think they don't belong to a country now?

Maybe Irish people living abroad should lose their Irish citizenship as well?
In fact lets pretend they never existed.

Sgt. Politeness

I personally find it sickening that people can scam the dole like this. I was out of work around 4 years ago, for about 7 months. I had been working hard for a year and a half beforehand, so had plenty of tax credits, i went on the dole, and when i still hadnt found work 6 months later, i got a letter from social welfare saying 'your dole will be cut off next week. get a job' basically. I had been going for interviews, and had genuinely been trying to find work but my qualifications back then were **** so i was unlucky, but no, 6 months was all i could get before being turfed off the register to get a job, while pieces of sh!t like this are scamming 3,000 euro a month...im in a good job in IT now and even i dont get that a month.
Alot of people here need a serious reality check if they think all foreigners and asylum seekers are hard working joes just here to make an honest buck.
Any non national found guilty of a crime should be deported without question. Id expect no less if i went to live in america and fiddled thier welfare system.

The Sweeper

The generalisation is what makes these threads so stupid.

'Non-nationals' do not defraud the social welfare because they are not Irish, those who do it do so because they are scumbags. It has nothing to do with them not being Irish by birth.

The politically correct brigade make a rod for their own backs - by refusing to implement migration criteria, strict asylum policies and rapid deportation (in other words the sort of experience the Irish have if they try to move to the United States or Australia), you make the country a soft touch for the new breed of global migrant scammer.

Therefore, the narrow minded bigots have fuel for their justification that "Johnny Foreigner is over here defrauding our welfare system, stealing our jobs, committing crimes and raping our women".

cournioni

ThrownAway wrote:

They need to make a living.

So its ok to commit fraud, just to make a living... :rolleyes:

Terry

Sangre wrote:

Yeah because flying return from Nigeria a couple of times a year is definitely worth what they would be claiming each year....

Hmm, I think a little blood just came out of my years after reading this post.

ahh, ok then. they have to pay a lot for their flights to Ireland, so it's ok for them to claim welfare here before going back to the hotel they own.
fair enough.

punky

Non-national? You might as well just call them animals.

There are very few people on this planet who don't have any nationality (some Palestinians spring to mind). They are certainly not the ones who are coming here because you cannot leave or enter a country without a passport.

You might think I'm being overly pedantic or PC but it is an important point. Dehumanising a certain type of types of people is the first step towards prejudice and prejudice is the first step towards violent racism.

Hobbes

Sangre wrote:

If they're declared asylums they've every right to claim.

If they have declared asylum they can't claim welfare. They have to have refugee status.

Although the scams themselves appear to be with foriegn nationals and not aslyum seekers. After reading the report its clear the cops are doing thier job now and some system needs to go in place.

Based on the description of the scams they sound like they could of been going on for years long before the increase in immigrants. Most likely someone found a cool scam and then passed it onto thier friends until it got out of hand. Bit like the double billing scam has in the UK.

MAJD wrote:

'Non-nationals' do not defraud the social welfare because they are not Irish, those who do it do so because they are scumbags. It has nothing to do with them not being Irish by birth.

Sums it up perfectly.

Gone West

solskjaer20 wrote:

Non-nationals?
Non-nationals?

What so you think they don't belong to a country now?

Maybe Irish people living abroad should lose their Irish citizenship as well?
In fact lets pretend they never existed.

Get off your PC high horse for fucks sake.
here is a list of times the phrase "non national" has been mentioned on the Irish government website. Clue: Its there a lot.

Its also PC. If someone is not an Irish citizen, and they are in Ireland, it is past acceptable to call them a "non-national".

Jesus, find yourself a real cause like...

Hobbes

Sangre wrote:

€7500 return each way for 2 people (only price (aer france)), several times a year? Thats roughly 30000 a year.

What are you flying business? You can get a return flight to Nigeria for around 500-600 euros from Dublin.

Even so they can just use an ATM to withdraw the money.

ircoha

punky wrote:

Non-national? You might as well just call them animals.

There are very few people on this planet who don't have any nationality (some Palestinians spring to mind). They are certainly not the ones who are coming here because you cannot leave or enter a country without a passport.

You might think I'm being overly pedantic or PC but it is an important point. Dehumanising a certain type of types of people is the first step towards prejudice and prejudice is the first step towards violent racism.

Right on, so the sooner it starts the better.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1416198.stm

We need to get our retaliation in first

ThrownAway

PORNAPSTER wrote:

So its ok to commit fraud, just to make a living... :rolleyes:

They probably have no other choice. How would you like if you had to resort to that. It's not like some of these people are doing it for the fun of it when there's such a risk involved. To me it says they're truely desperate. I didn't say it was okay but to me it's okay in comparison to those kind of lazy Irish people who go on the dole so they can sleep in all day and not have to work. [before anyone says anything I'm not talking about the people who genuinely can't work] I'm on about the ones that just couldn't be bothered to really go out and look for a job and would much rather instead moap about the place, amounting to nothing.

Giblet

Tha Gopher wrote:

Good God. Stekelly is of half foreign origin. For all we know, he is dark skinned because of it. But wait, he made a sensible comment in relation to this governments immigration policy? How in the name of God can the PC brigade react to this one? If they say something against it, theyre racist against Ste and his mother. If theyre pro his comments, theyre racist. Cant wait to hear this

Every thread where a young poster is shouted down for truthfully claiming that the amount of Poles etc prevents him from getting summer work reminds me of the time a Polish girl told me she thought our policy was mad, we were letting an economically unsafe amount of HER people in.

I should get her to post a thread on boards without mentioning her nationality, wait for the usual suspects to call her a Nazi, and then ask her to scan and post her Polski birth cert and passport and explain her position further.

But sure what would be the point in that? I cant count the amount of times Ive asked questions the PC boys refused to answer.

You're a troll. Banned.

Sangre

julep wrote:

ahh, ok then. they have to pay a lot for their flights to Ireland, so it's ok for them to claim welfare here before going back to the hotel they own.
fair enough.

Well done, thats exactly what I meant.

Of course Hobbes you're right, I meant declared refugees. I also found my prices from cheap flights who gave me aer france economy. I ignored the ones for sept. 11th/12th for 600e as an anomoly (they're always really low around sept 11th).

They can withdraw with atm but they've to prove they're eligibilty for claiming and show they're living in Ireland etc.,

5starpool

Two people should post mad controversial views about 2 different subjects and see which one gets the most number of outraged posters within a 24 hour period. I bet the winner would be close to 100 posts.

A lot of threads like this exist where no sane individual would post that point of view is surely just to antagonise the moralistic police that reside on boards.

Then again maybe the original posters of these type of threads are always sexist/racist/ageist/sectarian (delete as appropriate).

Hobbes

Sangre wrote:

They can withdraw with atm but they've to prove they're eligibilty for claiming and show they're living in Ireland etc.,

Well if its like the Chinese example then most likely someone else shows up pretending to be them. Would be easier and cheaper.

Reminded me of years ago (about 20 or so) where a woman got caught claiming for 12 kids. She used to bring the neighbours kids into the house around the time Social dropped in.

Guy:Incognito

Sangre wrote:

€7500 return each way for 2 people (only price (aer france)), several times a year? Thats roughly 30000 a year.

Mmm cheap! Social welfare always doles out that much.

Thats still 4 free holidays a year. Anyway, they could well be living here but getting al the profits sent over form the hotel they own.

Dilly1

The amount of Irish I knew in London in the 90's who had dodgy claims going easily runs into double figures. One guy from Edenderry had eleven claims going at once. This is just people that I knew, so god knows what the total scam figures were.

eth0_

Sangre wrote:

€7500 return each way for 2 people (only price (aer france)), several times a year? Thats roughly 30000 a year.

Mmm cheap! Social welfare always doles out that much.

Sorry to burst your bubble there, but it's around €600 return to Lagos, including tax... :rolleyes:

Sizzler

I guess the problem here is more the system than the offenders ?

If the govt make it all so easy why wouldnt people be they Irish or otherwise chance their arm and take a slice of whats going.

Govt have taken action now with an immigration tsar but they could also reduce that persons workload before they even start if they had tighter criteria on benefits etc?

Also, on a side issue,how come people with criminal records cant get into the USA but its open season here

stepbar

There are weaknesses in the system, better integration is needed in terms of services and the systems that support them (i.e IT). It is farcical is this day and age that a form is needed for everything. If less emphasis was placed on pushing paper around and making sure every file has a place, more resources could be given to actually keeping tabs on people, checking out that they actually applied for the job they said they applied for, checking out where they live and so on. Intergration is key, as I described with the suitation regarding passports that is something that could be easily sorted with a facility to electronically link up with the passport office. But that something that's not going to happen over night, the political will needs to be there to tackle the issues at play.

Delboy05

Sangre wrote:

They can withdraw with atm but they've to prove they're eligibilty for claiming and show they're living in Ireland etc.,

read the newspaper report.....it'll save you typing the above rubbish....

cushtac

stepbar wrote:

From my own experience of working in a social welfare office it is quite easy to "beat the system". One area that needs to be tightened up is the process of issuing PPS numbers. To get a PPS number all is needed is a passport or other form of id and proof of address (AFAIK certainly when I was there anyhow). The problem is that there is no actual mechanism for checking if the passport is real or not apart from actually ringing up the passports office.

Having recently worked in a Social Welfare office, I found that there is a considerable effort put into detecting fraudulent documents. There is a very good course run by the department on spotting a fake or altered bit of ID, complete with confiscated examples. The people within the department who deal with this are extremely knowledgeable and have contact with the GNIB and the various embassies. If there was ever any suspicion about a document we could ring them and/or fax a copy of it over to them for further scrutiny.

You could also hold on to any bit of ID you felt was dodgey & send it off for a full check.

Many forged or altered ID were siezed in the office I worked in & there were a few arrests too.

stepbar

cushtac wrote:

Having recently worked in a Social Welfare office, I found that there is a considerable effort put into detecting fraudulent documents. There is a very good course run by the department on spotting a fake or altered bit of ID, complete with confiscated examples. The people within the department who deal with this are extremely knowledgeable and have contact with the GNIB and the various embassies. If there was ever any suspicion about a document we could ring them and/or fax a copy of it over to them for further scrutiny.

You could also hold on to any bit of ID you felt was dodgey & send it off for a full check.

Many forged or altered ID were siezed in the office I worked in & there were a few arrests too.

Thats fair enough, I know from the office I worked in it was an issue. I certainly know that there are no issues with the GNIB cards, they are very hard to fake. My point is there is no fast way to check out a passport, no electronic way to check the number on a passport to see if a PPS number has been issued against it before. That would save a lot of time with having to deal with other agencies. I think maybe the PPS function should be removed from the Social Welfare offices altogether and dealt with by a central office in the city centre, and one for north and south dublin. That way you have control over the function and it can be policed in a uniform fashion. Im not sure how it could be dealt with down the country.

cushtac

stepbar wrote:

I think maybe the PPS function should be removed from the Social Welfare offices altogether and dealt with by a central office in the city centre, and one for north and south dublin. That way you have control over the function and it can be policed in a uniform fashion. Im not sure how it could be dealt with down the country.

There are/were plans to move all PPS applications to one or two Social Welfare offices per county where dedicated staff could deal with them.