Junior Cert Maths is too easy!

oRlyYaRly

I'm talking particularly about Higher Level.

The whole Junior cert paper is a complete joke next to what we're doing now, and I'm barely two weeks into 5th year. :rolleyes:

Seriously, they need to make JC maths much harder. My 5th year maths book was quite a shock to me.

Of course a jump in difficulty is to be expected but Jesus Christ! :eek:

I found my A in Junior maths came quite easily. Okay, the results aren't out yet but I got an A in the mocks and the real thing went much better.

And yet I'm struggling with maths at the moment. Maybe they could include more difficult material at JC so we at least know what to expect and be able to practise the harder stuff.

spurious

I agree with you. There is a huge jump in standard between Junior Cert. and Leaving Cert. Maths, but in other subjects too. There is also a big change in how the exams are corrected.

For the Junior Cert. the object is to find as many marks as possible for a candidate. This is not the case at Leaving Cert.. Thus, '10 As in my Junior' doesn't mean a whole lot in terms of how someone will do at Leaving Cert..

I'm glad you did well in Maths at JC, it will stand as a good foundation to you. Don't forget though, that while you are lucky enough to have found it easy, there is a substantial group of people out there who struggle with Ordinary Level JC Maths.

Diarmsquid

The Junior cert wasn't really made as a stepping stone for Leaving Cert. It was made so that people who won't be going onto do LC will come out of school with a qualification. So they're not going to bridge the gap just for the people who found it easier and aregoing onto LC.

And btw, don't take it for granted that you'll get an A in Maths.
I got an A in Science in the Mocks and a B in the Junior. And I thought it went alright.

oRlyYaRly

Diarmsquid wrote:

The Junior cert wasn't really made as a stepping stone for Leaving Cert. It was made so that people who won't be going onto do LC will come out of school with a qualification. So they're not going to bridge the gap just for the people who found it easier and aregoing onto LC.

And btw, don't take it for granted that you'll get an A in Maths.
I got an A in Science in the Mocks and a B in the Junior. And I thought it went alright.

Yeah, but how many people take Higher maths and then not do the leaving cert? There could be some but I'm sure they're the minority.

spurious

According to the SEC figures, 59,340 sat Junior Cert. (non-external candidates) in 2003 and the Leaving Cert. figure for the same group (2005) was 51,169.

Obviously we can't tell from that who did or didn't sit HL Maths and some adjustment should be made for TY, but that gives a rough fall-out rate between JC and LC of the order of 13%. Many people still don't sit the Leaving Cert. though figures are falling.

I would agree the numbers who take HL Maths and do not continue are probably low, though the fall-out level of students has much more to do with their social circumstances than their ability level.

Anyway, stick at the Maths and make sure you get your teacher to explain anything you're having difficulty with - it's during 5th year the bulk of the work can be done and it's worth sticking with the HL if you can.

oRlyYaRly

Don't 5 or 6 thousand do LCA though?

philologos

oRlyYaRly wrote:

I'm talking particularly about Higher Level.

The whole Junior cert paper is a complete joke next to what we're doing now, and I'm barely two weeks into 5th year. :rolleyes:

Seriously, they need to make JC maths much harder. My 5th year maths book was quite a shock to me.

Of course a jump in difficulty is to be expected but Jesus Christ! :eek:

I found my A in Junior maths came quite easily. Okay, the results aren't out yet but I got an A in the mocks and the real thing went much better.

And yet I'm struggling with maths at the moment. Maybe they could include more difficult material at JC so we at least know what to expect and be able to practise the harder stuff.

thats just you, at the time I found it hard and got a D now i'm doing Ordinary for the Leaving Cert. Everyone finds some subject hard eh?

I got A's in Geography, Religion and CSPE but i don't go around saying they are piss easy

spurious

oRlyYaRly wrote:

Don't 5 or 6 thousand do LCA though?

Yes, I took them out of the Department figures. I also took out repeat students.

philologos

you have to take into account that not all skip to 5th year and that there could be less people in the age group when added with the ones who did transition year who are older.

disney

oRlyYaRly wrote:

I'm talking particularly about Higher Level.

The whole Junior cert paper is a complete joke next to what we're doing now, and I'm barely two weeks into 5th year. :rolleyes:

Seriously, they need to make JC maths much harder. My 5th year maths book was quite a shock to me.

Of course a jump in difficulty is to be expected but Jesus Christ! :eek:

I found my A in Junior maths came quite easily. Okay, the results aren't out yet but I got an A in the mocks and the real thing went much better.

And yet I'm struggling with maths at the moment. Maybe they could include more difficult material at JC so we at least know what to expect and be able to practise the harder stuff.

Ya I totally agree, not sayin that I found hons JC easy, but I worked and got my A in the mock, (and hopefully the same on wednesday!!!) but the 5th yr maths are a joke, its a whole load of mumbo jumbo that personally I think my teacher doesnt even understand!!!! Help!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

philologos

in fairness there has to be a level of standard in which everyone wont be doing ordinary or foundation. Some people genuinely find it hard.... As an example my cousin did Ordinary Maths for the Leaving Cert two years ago, she needed a HC3 for Engineering in the south so she went to the University of Ulster in Jordanstown. She found that even her O Level Maths was better than some who had taken the higher level of Maths in the A Levels. This surely says that Irish Maths is at a high enough standard would you agree

5th year Maths Higher Level is a huge jump and should only be done by people who genuinely need it for their course / points

Piste

Jakkass wrote:

I got A's in Geography, Religion and CSPE but i don't go around saying they are piss easy

Ah now you can hardly use that as an example

philologos

Piste wrote:

Ah now you can hardly use that as an example

yep you're right that one should be made into a harder subject called Politics / Current Affairs and added to LC too

Piste

Yes actually that would be a good LC subject, they could do Political Science Lite for LC.

Chillwithcian

oRlyYaRly wrote:

I'm talking particularly about Higher Level.

The whole Junior cert paper is a complete joke next to what we're doing now, and I'm barely two weeks into 5th year. :rolleyes:

Seriously, they need to make JC maths much harder. My 5th year maths book was quite a shock to me.

Of course a jump in difficulty is to be expected but Jesus Christ! :eek:

I found my A in Junior maths came quite easily. Okay, the results aren't out yet but I got an A in the mocks and the real thing went much better.

And yet I'm struggling with maths at the moment. Maybe they could include more difficult material at JC so we at least know what to expect and be able to practise the harder stuff.

I thought the oppisite, why i dropped to Ordianry JC. :eek:

1huge1

i found junior cert honours maths rather hard actually but that was probably because i had a fairly useless teacher

and now im in 5th year still with the honours and so far i am not finding it to hard and luckily i got the best maths teacher in the school now

philologos

Piste wrote:

Yes actually that would be a good LC subject, they could do Political Science Lite for LC.

definetely its one of my biggest interests personally...

ANarcho-Munk

I'd love to get to do Philosophy in secondary school but politics would also be quite cool.

philologos

like most of the people I know couldn't give a damn about the way our government works and the way governments are acting in the world etc, nobody wants to know anymore.... i'd say an essay like subject would rock if it was made. Although they could expand classical studies to philosophy, although Religion also studies the philosophers like Socrates, Plato etc as well.

Piste

Apprently my religion teacher this year is going to do some Philosphy stuff with us which will be interesting. My Dad said he'd like to teach Philosophy to TY students but I advised him against it seeing as most of them wouldn't give a crap.

philologos

yep philosophy is on the LC Religion course so it makes sense to start a little bit to see how people like it

phenomenon

I agree that the gap between the jc and Lc in general is huuuuuuge. Half my class got A's in higher maths for the junior but only 4 sat the higher paper in the leaving. Most (including myself) dropped to ordinary. Only about 10% of the country does higher maths at Lc. At the end of the day, its all about points so theres no point(!) at spending all your time trying to learn higher maths and ignoring other subjects where u may excel.

As for philosophy as a Lc subject?? Pfft. Religion should be dropped also

oRlyYaRly

phenomenon wrote:

I agree that the gap between the jc and Lc in general is huuuuuuge. Half my class got A's in higher maths for the junior but only 4 sat the higher paper in the leaving. Most (including myself) dropped to ordinary. Only about 10% of the country does higher maths at Lc. At the end of the day, its all about points so theres no point(!) at spending all your time trying to learn higher maths and ignoring other subjects where u may excel.

As for philosophy as a Lc subject?? Pfft. Religion should be dropped also

It's not all about points. :eek:

ANarcho-Munk

oRlyYaRly wrote:

I'm talking particularly about Higher Level.

The whole Junior cert paper is a complete joke next to what we're doing now, and I'm barely two weeks into 5th year. :rolleyes:

Seriously, they need to make JC maths much harder. My 5th year maths book was quite a shock to me.

Of course a jump in difficulty is to be expected but Jesus Christ! :eek:

I found my A in Junior maths came quite easily. Okay, the results aren't out yet but I got an A in the mocks and the real thing went much better.

And yet I'm struggling with maths at the moment. Maybe they could include more difficult material at JC so we at least know what to expect and be able to practise the harder stuff.

Right, I hate to be a wet towel but don't be so cocky sayin' you got an A when the results aren't out yet. That's the type of stuff I can't stand fair enough if you think you did pretty good in it but that doesn't mean you got an A in it. Just wait until tomorrow and then you can go around blabbing what you got.

Being honest I struggled with maths a lot in 3rd year as did a fair few of my mates. I seem to be doing ok this year and don't find it to be that overwhelming but may be because I have a much better teacher now.

oRlyYaRly wrote:

It's not all about points. :eek:

Yup, unfortunatly it is.

JSK 252

Jakkass wrote:

in fairness there has to be a level of standard in which everyone wont be doing ordinary or foundation. Some people genuinely find it hard.... As an example my cousin did Ordinary Maths for the Leaving Cert two years ago, she needed a HC3 for Engineering in the south so she went to the University of Ulster in Jordanstown. She found that even her O Level Maths was better than some who had taken the higher level of Maths in the A Levels. This surely says that Irish Maths is at a high enough standard would you agree

5th year Maths Higher Level is a huge jump and should only be done by people who genuinely need it for their course / points

I would definetly agree that we have a high standard of maths. The GCSE maths in The UK is of a lower standard. They only test one type of maths but i cant think of the word. Actually it has been proven that the junior certificate higher level maths exam is one of the highest standard of maths for our age group in the world. I dont want to hear anything about the chinese or the japanese but its a FACT.

I do agree that this years paper was a bit easier especially paper one but still only a certain percentage are getting As( and i know that the marking scheme is amended so that the same percentage get As every year) so really there is a consistent standard of how the paper is marked. Im fairly sure that i got an A in HL maths but the only question that I found hard was the Bales question in a (C) part paper one.

Piste

oRlyYaRly wrote:

It's not all about points. :eek:

Oh it is and we all know it, no matter what poeople might say about a broad education, its all about the points.

JSK 252 wrote:

Actually it has been proven that the junior certificate higher level maths exam is one of the highest standard of maths for our age group in the world. I dont want to hear anything about the chinese or the japanese but its a FACT.

Can you quote a source?

phasers

that's just you.perhaps you're just very good at maths?(congratulations on the A by the way,I wish I could get that)
I found higher level maths so hard,I actually failed my mock,as did many girls in my class (granted,we had a very bad teacher).
I got A's in my history,geography,CSPE and business but that doesn't mean it's very easy,I'm just good at these subjects.

JSK 252 wrote:

the only question that I found hard was the Bales question in a (C) part paper one.

now that you mention it,I don't know one person who got that question.

Fobia

Hmm. I wouldn't be inclined to agree with those of you who think there is a large jump between JC and LC maths really...

The only extra thing that comes with LC is the idea of rarely working with numbers in some questions. But that was in the proofs for the junior cert?

I think the reason people may see a jump is they learnt how to do junior cert maths the way one would learn geography or business studies - learning off, reading over and over again. This will work for some subjects in the leaving cert (the above, and it's debatable for English Irish and History..), but there are subjects which are moreso about understanding, those being Maths, Applied Maths, Phyics and Chemistry (and possibly economics, but I don't do that so I can't really say..)

The problem is you can't just learn lc maths off (well, except for the proofs.). But I don't think there's any gap really, the reason people find it difficult is, to use the annoying analogy that teachers love, they're trying to put down the bricks without having any foundation in the ground..

oRlyYaRly

I got my A in maths BTW.

BlueSpiral

oRlyYaRly wrote:

I got my A in maths BTW.

I got my D in maths BTW!

hahahahahahahaha ....wait.

philologos

phenomenon wrote:

As for philosophy as a Lc subject?? Pfft. Religion should be dropped also

have you ever done LC Religion? You answer questions on Islam, Buddhism etc. Very worthwhile to do so, and if its a joke in your opinion, you should do it and get the A in it if you think its so easy or a "joke"

enda1

Religion is a leaving cert exam now!!! Thats ridiculus!!!!!!
How can you have an exam on such subjective nonscense.

Anyways, once you get through elaving cert you will realise its NOT all about the points. Points are forgiotten about about a week into college. Choose subjects that your interested in and that you feel will benefit toy in later life (course, job etc.).

As regards the JC. I remember the gap not being too bad. Has the JC course changed since 2000? I know your allowed use calculators now (which is silly i think).

What was that question in the JC paper that was so bad? (Just curious)

philologos

I'm going to just say two words (regarding the first 2 lines of the last post)...

how ignorant

enda1

What are you referring to as ignorant?

oRlyYaRly

enda1 wrote:

Anyways, once you get through elaving cert you will realise its NOT all about the points. Points are forgiotten about about a week into college. Choose subjects that your interested in and that you feel will benefit toy in later life (course, job etc.).

They're only forgotten about a week into college if you get the points for a course you like.

And I think you should be allowed to use a calculator. Doing tax and stuff without a calculator would just be a waste of time. And the less said about log tables the better!

philologos

enda1 wrote:

What are you referring to as ignorant?

How is religion nonsense billions of people practise religions each day, it has huge influences both politically and in the human life. Even agnosticism and atheism are studied in Religion. It would also help people learn tolerance in a multi-faith society. Its very essay based and is actually a very long course.

Victor

spurious wrote:

According to the SEC figures, 59,340 sat Junior Cert. (non-external candidates) in 2003 and the Leaving Cert. figure for the same group (2005) was 51,169.

Obviously we can't tell from that who did or didn't sit HL Maths and some adjustment should be made for TY, but that gives a rough fall-out rate between JC and LC of the order of 13%. Many people still don't sit the Leaving Cert. though figures are falling.

Birth rates vary from year to year, so the 13% drop may not be accurate

spurious

Yes of course 13% may not be accurate, but it gives an idea of the drop between JC and LC. There is a constant steady drop of just short of 10% between national 1st year enrolment and JC candidates too, despite stay at school initiatives and the like.

Boards.ie may not reflect it, as it is mainly made up of people with internet access and a computer, but there is a sizeable group of people out there who do not achieve at all within the education system, or achieve at a low level.

I just wanted to remind people of that, especially on a day when so many boards.ie people seem to have done so well in the JC. Don't take your ability and achievements for granted. Congratulations.

rjt

JSK 252 wrote:

I would definetly agree that we have a high standard of maths. The GCSE maths in The UK is of a lower standard. They only test one type of maths but i cant think of the word. Actually it has been proven that the junior certificate higher level maths exam is one of the highest standard of maths for our age group in the world. I dont want to hear anything about the chinese or the japanese but its a FACT.

Well, the Irish secondary education system as a whole is thought of as one of the best in the world (and gives a more broad education than most of its international counterparts). However, in terms of maths, although our course covers is indeed better than a lot of those abroad (and teaches some key concepts earlier), I believe that the curriculum is fundamentally flawed in that it is far too method-centered. This is indeed endemic throughout the world, but with the points race, and the fact that most countries have better extra-curricular maths facilities, I think it's an issue here. Many students drop in maths not because they are unable (far from it), but because they simply don't understand, and so it's all Greek to them (indeed, some of it *is* Greek :P).

Certainly, some teachers are excellent (mine included), and allow students to understand as well as learn methods. If every teacher taught like this, there would be no problem. But as we all know too well, there are many people in the teaching profession that probably shouldn't be. These teachers would also have great difficulty teaching an understanding of the subject, and so if the curriculum was reformed to something more understanding-based, the failure rates would probably increase.

</rant>

Seriously though, it made me quite happy to see the high A rate this year. After this years LCs I had begun to wonder if we'd lost a generation of mathematicians. Congrats to all those that got As, and maybe I'll see some of you at the Irish Mathematic Olympiad training in November.

Raphael

oRlyYaRly wrote:

It's not all about points. :eek:

You;re right. It's about points AND making matriculation, and that's the more important reason for higher maths. I wouldn't suggest taking higher maths unless you actually need itto get a place, the difference in work between passing honours and getting an A1 in higher maths is more than enough to get an A1 in something else.

philologos

yep I agree with Raphael, did honours maths before 5th year but dropped down to save the workload for other subjects I actually like

Fobia

Jakkass wrote:

Even agnosticism and atheism are studied in Religion. It would also help people learn tolerance in a multi-faith society.

That strikes me as a bit silly...you...study the idea that you CANT know what religion is right? It appears to be quite a simple idea to me..and you study the belief that there is no god? I mean, this can be studied on the grounds of morality and beliefs etc etc, but..the actual belief itself?

I'm not saying that doing religion for LC is stupid, I'd most certainly do it if I had the choice. Whether it's a "real" subject or not, well, I'm sure that was debated before they added it in as an LC subject, most people think LCVP is a bit of a joke too (and, going only on people I know who've done it, it is a bit..).

Oh, and tolerance shouldn't need to be taught as a subject..

Piste

Fobia wrote:

Oh, and tolerance shouldn't need to be taught as a subject..

I have met some people who would make me very inclined to disagree with that.

philologos

Fobia, I think that its a good idea to teach the people about how people do things in other parts of society and in other faiths as it won't make them as isolated to the people who know fully of their customs

JC 2K3

Jakkass wrote:

5th year Maths Higher Level is a huge jump and should only be done by people who genuinely need it for their course / points

I'm doing it for an easy A1......

JC higher maths for me was basically a night before job. Can't remember doing any homework after the mocks.

LC is a bit harder, was still in the bad habit of not doing the homework last year and only got a B2 in my summer exam. But I find maths in general very easy to understand. The only hard part about the exam for me is the time limit.

Oh and I don't believe thaat doing well in maths shouuld have anything to do with a good teacher. You either have the ability to do maths or you don't(I believe it has a lot to do with how you are brought up). A "good" teacher might be able to drill methods into you, but that's not learning maths, that's learning the exam.

philologos

yep I happen to be terrible at maths naturally

PurpleFistMixer

Being that I am only a week into fifth year now, this is gonna be a bit of a wild estimation. However, the standard seems like a bit of a jump from JC. Perhaps it's just because we're used to doing the easiest maths ever in the first week of classes and whatnot, that LC maths seems harder. (As we're, thankfully, not doing the old "Okay here's a number line"*) Like, we actually had to THINK about our homework before doing it.

However, I'm not sure if making JC maths harder would be any kind of help. Well, it'd mean you're more prepared, kind of, going into LC, but there'd also be the high probability of scaring even more people off maths.

I think a lot of the problem is that a lot of people approach maths with an entirely wrong mindset. Maths has a bad name for being hard, so people automatically assume that it is, without giving themselves a chance for understanding it or whatever. Too many times have I seen girls in my class give up on a question before even trying it, simply because it looks difficult.
So far, LC maths LOOKS complicated, but it's not exactly rocket science.


Also, forgive me if I'm wrong (and for continuing the off topic in this thread...); I don't do the subject, but does History not encorporate a fair bit of politics?

Piste

It does, but not current politics/political systems etc.

My maths teacher said that my maths teacher would be the highest pass class for LC maths, then asked who wanted to do honours and nearly the whole class put up their hands but said they're probably drop down. I'm going to do honours maths to begin with, but if I find that it's eating up too much of my time I'll drop down so I can concentrate on points subjects.

JC 2K3

There can't be a LC Politics subject that can work, because at that level it has to be objective and not that subjective, insulting to our intelligence, indoctinating, piece of shít JC subject, CSPE, and if people understood how fúcked up our political system is and how unfair the world is there'd be unrest and rebellion.

philologos

PurpleFistMixer wrote:

Also, forgive me if I'm wrong (and for continuing the off topic in this thread...); I don't do the subject, but does History not encorporate a fair bit of politics?

Yes it does, we are doing the Irish situation from 1870 upto the 1st Home Rule Bill under Isaac Butt. You need to know who did what under what government and how it affected people locally and in a wider sense how did it make other politicians feel and how did they react and the like. Much more than just plonking down the facts however you need to understand the background and the concequences of it as well. Thats politics in the past however, not today, its not like you study the current situation politically. I'd be up for it as many people rarely understand what is happening politically and how it affects our world as well. And in response to the last poster there is plenty to be asked and it could be essay based. "In your opinion, what do you find from the recent conflict between the United States and its Coalition and Iraq and Afghanistan" you'd have to mention the background of 9/11 and the laws in the UK and US regarding terrorism, Patriot Act 2001, and the Terrorism Act of 2000 in the UK. And you'd have to mention stuff in regard to the Kean Commission and investigations into it and the deployment of the troops and the areas they were put in etc etc. and state your opinion on each of them. It wouldn't be intended to be a joke like CSPE.

JC 2K3

That would promote too much free thinking for the government to allow it.