Choose an idiot to lead the PDs

Mad Finn

Absolutely brilliant letter in the Irish Times today on the subject of the PDs leadership. (sub required)

Rarely has one so succinctly and damningly put the case for neoliberal economics, and the political ramifications, into so sweet a nutshell.

letter writer wrote:

The party [PDs] came into existence to bring the Thatcher/Reagan neo-liberal revolution to this country. In a nutshell, this means increasing the share of wealth derived from profits and decreasing the share paid out in wages. The tricky bit is that you have to combine this attack on wages with puritanical guff about rewarding hard work rather than idleness, which is of course the exact opposite of what neo-liberalist policies actually do.

And what that means for party leaders who promote such policies

letter writer wrote:

Since there are far more voters dependent on wages than on share dividends, how do you gather mass support for such policies in a democracy? How can you make the turkeys vote for Christmas? The US Republicans have attempted to square this circle by picking intellectually modest (stupid, if you like) leaders such as Reagan or Bush Jnr. They find it better to send out a likeable fool who has no understanding at all, than someone who recognises the contradiction at the centre of the party's appeal for the votes of working people.

So no point putting forward a sharp, intelligent commited guy like McDowell as party leader then. How about a 'likeable fool' with a nice homely country accent and rustic farmer's charm.

Step forward Tom Parlon.

Victor

Mad Finn wrote:

Choose an idiot to lead the PDs

Wheres the poll?

freddyfreeload

Thing is, the PD's don't need a "likeable fool". They don't even need those turkeys to vote for christmas. All they need to continue exerting a disproportionate influence on the course of Irish political life is the piddling 3-5% it takes to get them into coalition with Fianna Fail.

Mad Finn

True enough, but they have to get elected first. And even though he represents the much maligned Dublin 4, Mr McDowell has a real yo-yo experience with getting elected in that constituency. He has lost his seat twice, the second time to sandal-wearing, bicycle riding Green leftie John Gormley.

There's not enough hard-necked profit-obsessed property developers living in Dublin 4 (they all live in Westmeath) to guarantee election. There's quite a few turkeys that McDowell is going to need to count on to get back to the Dail.

Sparks

There's quite a few turkeys that McDowell is going to need to count on to get back to the Dail.

Thing is, that's not likely to happen. Every analyst out there is saying that the PDs are about to take a header into an empty swimming pool from the high board in terms of seats retained. So backing McDowell for the leadership is the smart thing to do for anyone wanting to be the leader inside a year - put McDowell in, let him fail spectacularly while his worst opponents, Sinn Fein, take more seats, then use that to oust him and take his place. And given who's now the PD deputy leader...

Sparks

Sparks wrote:

Every analyst out there is saying that the PDs are about to take a header into an empty swimming pool from the high board in terms of seats retained.

Hey, Irish Permanent want their ad back...;)

Sparks wrote:

put McDowell in, let him fail spectacularly while his worst opponents, Sinn Fein, take more seats, then use that to oust him and take his place. And given who's now the PD deputy leader...

Yeah, that's the only logic that I can see for Liz. It's likely that the PDs will not be in the next government anyway. And that they will lose seats. She could come in after the election as the person to rescue the party's fortunes. New leader, spell on the sidelines to recuperate, could be just the ticket...

ScottishDanny

Congrats to the PDs for avoiding electing a leader properly! In a move that seems neither 'progressive' nor 'democratic', they decided not to 'shop around' As Ms Harney once advised consumers,and have gone for the obvious choice to keep their party popularity in single figures.:D
Now if McDowell can somehow convince the electorate that the IRA are recruiting immigrants he's on a winner! :rolleyes:

DadaKopf

The "likeable fool" is one response, favoured in America. The other is the "unlikable mercenary" like Nicolas Sarkozy, Silvio Berlusconi and Michael McDowell (no longer Harney).

Then there's the middle-ground: mercenaries who pass aggressive policies by creating a political no-man's land. Step up Blair, Bertie, Merkel.

At least McDowell has the honesty (in the sense that a Freudian slip is honest) of admitting that he thinks inequality is good for society. Though pretending the contradiction in neoliberalism doesn't exist, he recognises it all the same. Equality before the law, inequality everywhere else. But the law is not impartial.

partholon

Deleted User wrote:

Yeah, that's the only logic that I can see for Liz. It's likely that the PDs will not be in the next government anyway. And that they will lose seats. She could come in after the election as the person to rescue the party's fortunes. New leader, spell on the sidelines to recuperate, could be just the ticket...

correct me if im wrong but if macdowel looses his seat doesnt liz automatically become defacto leader just by virtue of getting elected? maybe the girls a lot smarter than we think she is, it'd be a coup without actually ousting the "real" leader

by the way does anyone know of a precedent of a partly leader not getting elected? it could actually happen here so what would be the fall out?

partholon

partholon wrote:

by the way does anyone know of a precedent of a partly leader not getting elected? it could actually happen here so what would be the fall out?

At a guess, Tomás MacGiolla for the Worker's Party in 1992.

Mad Finn

Deleted User wrote:

At a guess, Tomás MacGiolla for the Worker's Party in 1992.

Not forgetting Frank Cluskey, Labour Party leader in one of the three elections that happened within a year and a half 1981-1982. Michael O'Leary (the one who died in a swimming pool in France recently) succeeded him but then decided that Fine Gael was a better place for him to be so he baled out.

At which point they went for a compromise candidate who had just inherited his daddy's rural seat, in the finest traditions of Irish politics, and had been a TD for only a few months. Not only that but a mere three years previously, while playing full back for Ireland, he dropped a high ball on his own goal line in Cardiff which led to a Welsh try. In a match that Ireland subsequently lost by only three points (24-21).

Mind you, he was a very good foreign minister.

It was of course Dick Spring.

Het-Field

Again people clearly dont know what they are talking about. The Progressive Democrats have been a key reason for Ireland's prosperous nature. In the 1980s Finna Fail tried to ruin our economy in an attempt to gain votes. Fine Gael were so unimaginative that they allowed the economy to become stagnent. The PD'S aadvocated Liberal Economics, Liberal Thinkings, and a Liberal Society. As a member and Vice Chairman of the UCD branch I can vouch for it that I can think what I want and not be expected to follow any party line.

Michael McDowell is an intellegent and dynamic politician. As Minister for Justice he has tried to tackle issues such as the drinking culture, immigration and crime in a dynamic, fair and imaginative way. He will lead the party in a competent manner and the party will move forward. In 2002 His "one party, no thank you" thing was a big succewss, and I believe that he will have something up his sleeve

Macker

Did anybody hear him on The Right Hook today ,he said the PD's would get 16 seats in the next Dail ,and I swear this is true ,he said that republicans should vote for the PD's and not Sine Fein.

Pass the spliff Micky McD.

sceptre

Het-Field wrote:

In 2002 His "one party, no thank you" thing was a big succewss, and I believe that he will have something up his sleeve

Hopefully a list of things that the PDs, as self-declared government watchdogs, have verifiably prevented FF from doing during the period of this government as I'll need a bit of help there when election time comes. I'd like to see that list now to be honest but I doubt I'll ever see it.

freddyfreeload

True enough, but they have to get elected first. And even though he represents the much maligned Dublin 4, Mr McDowell has a real yo-yo experience with getting elected in that constituency.

Good point. But now he's party leader I suspect he'll make it. People are shallow like that. Look at the fools in Blair's constituency. They carry on as though by sharing his postcode greatness somehow rubs off on them, so long as they keep believing he's great.

He has lost his seat twice, the second time to sandal-wearing, bicycle riding Green leftie John Gormley.

Hey, don't knock the Greens! I know loads of them and none of them wear sandals. If enough people go to see "An Inconvenient Truth" (which everyone should) they might just increase their vote. Up the bike riders!

There's quite a few turkeys that McDowell is going to need to count on to get back to the Dail.

You're probably right, but I reckon there's a lot of potential facist turkeys out there just primed to be wooed by a taller, nastier (not to mention slinkier) pair of jackboots under the PD table. And as for D4, all he has to do is play the immigration card and mention his track record on the Citizenship Ref and those subliminally racist knees will start twitching from Ballsbridge to Donnybrook. Short goosestep from twitching to polling booth!

16 seats might be pushing it but I bet he'll pull in at least as many voters as Harney let slip away.

ff

Mad Finn

freddyfreeload wrote:

Hey, don't knock the Greens! I know loads of them and none of them wear sandals. If enough people go to see "An Inconvenient Truth" (which everyone should) they might just increase their vote. Up the bike riders!

I wasn't being judgemental, merely highlighting the contrast between McDowell and Gormley and pointing out that when it came to the crunch the good citizens of Dublin 4 (and most of us ARE good citizens) chose Mr Gormley.

As it happens I vote for Mr Gormly, even though he's a bike rider and those of us who walk to work HATE feckers who drive mechanical vehicles the wrong way down one-way streets.

freddyfreeload wrote:

And as for D4, all he has to do is play the immigration card and mention his track record on the Citizenship Ref and those subliminally racist knees will start twitching from Ballsbridge to Donnybrook. Short goosestep from twitching to polling booth!

It seems to me that there is one group of people that you can criticise without fear of recrimination in this country and that is the aforementioned good citizens of Dublin 4. You clearly know little or nothing about them. (us)

In fact, it is a constituency (Dublin South East) that has regularly returned liberal left of centre folk to the Dail. It is the former seat of Garret Fitzgerald and, going back further, Noel Browne. In recent years it has become a safe seat for Gormley of the Greens and Ruairi Quinn of Labour--ok not the most left wing person in the Labour party but no immigrant basher either--has represented the constituency since 1973, although he has lost and regained his seat on the way.

Even those on the traditional right, like former Fine Gael TD and mayor of Dublin Joe Doyle, was vocal in his support of the rights of asylum seekers and immigrants at a time when it was not fashionable to do so. He presented his views as being holy consistent with his traditional Catholic beliefs and fair play to him.

freddyfreeload wrote:

16 seats might be pushing it but I bet he'll pull in at least as many voters as Harney let slip away.

ff

That constituency is seen as a real hot bed and canvassers have been out already. FG are making a determined bid to get their seat there back. Lucinda Creighton--even more photogenic than Liz O'Donnell--has been putting herself about a bit, in the political sense of course, and the latest pup from the Andrews litter has been knocking on our doors on behalf of Fianna Fail. He's Ryan Tubridy's cousin, you know!!! Or so his campaign literature tells us.

I reckon McDowell stands a really good chance of being squeezed out. It's usually the junior partner in a coalition that takes the brunt when the tide turns.

Victor

Mad Finn wrote:

I wasn't being judgemental, merely highlighting the contrast between McDowell and Gormley and pointing out that when it came to the crunch the good citizens of Dublin 4 (and most of us ARE good citizens) chose Mr Gormley.

Erm, what of the folks of D2, D6 and part of D8?

http://www.constituency-commission.ie/Images/map_b.jpg

freddyfreeload

It seems to me that there is one group of people that you can criticise without fear of recrimination in this country and that is the aforementioned good citizens of Dublin 4. You clearly know little or nothing about them. (us)

I defer to the good among you!

And I hope you're right about the demise of McDowell. But I wouldn't be surprised if, beyond the boundaries of D4 at least, he sparks a right-wing resurgence. And I remember when John Bruton nearly didn't hold his seat while FG leader, and wondering if their weren't a few politely shuffled ballots.

ff

Mad Finn

freddyfreeload wrote:

I defer to the good among you!

I remember when John Bruton nearly didn't hold his seat while FG leader, and wondering if their weren't a few politely shuffled ballots.

ff

Well there were several occasions when party leaders NEARLY lost their seats. Didn't Dick Spring hang on by about 4 votes in Kerry North while he was Tanaiste?

McDowell has a yo-yo vote. I think he came close to topping the poll last time, but the time before he lost his seat. I think this time round he'll be at the bottom of the string.

Tricity Bendix

freddyfreeload wrote:

And as for D4, all he has to do is play the immigration card and mention his track record on the Citizenship Ref and those subliminally racist knees will start twitching from Ballsbridge to Donnybrook. Short goosestep from twitching to polling booth!

You do realise that McDowell is one of the most pro-immigration TDs in the Dáil?

Cronus333

Macker wrote:

Did anybody hear him on The Right Hook today ,he said the PD's would get 16 seats in the next Dail ,and I swear this is true ,he said that republicans should vote for the PD's and not Sine Fein.

Pass the spliff Micky McD.

Em.... Since we are only actually running 16 candidates that I know of........

Good luck with that 100% success rate.

Red Alert

The FF/PD's relationship is one reason NOT to vote for the Oppressive Democrats. The PD's essentially have the government by a leash. FF are so power hungry that they will do anything to keep the PD's at bay.

MontgomeryClift

I don't think the PDs are pro-immigration. They're pro-cheap-labour, which happens to come from non-selective immigration, which is what we have in Ireland.

freddyfreeload

b.ie curious wrote:

You do realise that McDowell is one of the most pro-immigration TDs in the Dáil?

No I didn't. How so?

ff

Tricity Bendix

Because we need cheap labour to grease the wheels and cogs of our capitalist machine, silly.


He has spoken at length and publicly about the economic neccessity for foreign workers.

They're pro-cheap-labour, which happens to come from non-selective immigration, which is what we have in Ireland.

Not entirely true. Workers from outside the EU are required to obtain visas. We are also able to turn away failed asylum seekers.

freddyfreeload

b.ie curious wrote:

He has spoken at length and publicly about the economic neccessity for foreign workers.

Ah, the old judging-politicians-by-what-they-say-rather-than-what-they-do philosophy. By which standard Bertie's a Socialist, Blair didn't lie and Ray Burke really is innocent.

Tricity Bendix

freddyfreeload wrote:

Ah, the old judging-politicians-by-what-they-say-rather-than-what-they-do philosophy. By which standard Bertie's a Socialist, Blair didn't lie and Ray Burke really is innocent.

Well, the cabinet as a whole decided not to restict immigration from the new EU countires.

And believe you me, next time a politician comes knocking at your door, bring up the issue of immigration as a negative and watch them fall over themselves in an attempt to win your vote. Sometimes, what a politician says can be very important, especially when what they're saying goes against the grain of popular opinion.

axer

Mad Finn wrote:

So no point putting forward a sharp, intelligent commited guy like McDowell as party leader then.

I'll take it you are joking about Michael McDougal being "a sharp, intelligent commited guy". His appointment as party leader has left me in a dilemma. I can no longer vote for FF because they are now in bed with a mad man. I can't vote for Fine Gael because I would never let Enda Kenny behind the wheel. The only option left is Greens or Sinn Fein. There are no real Greens candidates in my area. So I have no choice but to vote for Sinn Fein. Thanks Dumbass McDougal.

Why have the PDs chosen an unlikeable fool?

freddyfreeload

b.ie curious wrote:

next time a politician comes knocking at your door, bring up the issue of immigration as a negative and watch them fall over themselves in an attempt to win your vote. Sometimes, what a politician says can be very important, especially when what they're saying goes against the grain of popular opinion.

That's kind of my point. What they giveth with their mealy mouths they taketh away with their pens. In McDowell's case what he says to the camera is rather belied by his track record: Citizenship Bill, the misrepresentation that fuelled it and his penchant for draconian deportation tactics.

... the cabinet as a whole decided not to restict immigration from the new EU countires.

Could they have done otherwise having endorsed the Nice Treaty?

And I think, as has been implied, that being pro-cheap labour is hardly the same as being pro-immigration. By that measure we could say that British colonial sugar planters were pro-immigration too

ff

Sgt. Sensible

Brendan O'Connor, the worst journalist in the world, claimed last week that McDowell says "what most people secretly think." Er yeah, maybe if all those people who agree with him so much actually voted for the PDs using those secret ballot things at elections, then they wouldn't be stuck on 3% or whatever it is now. O'Connor, writing in the Sunday Independent (readership 1.1 million) also castigated Ireland's "liberal media" (ie, anything not already owned by Tony O'Reilly) for its treatment of McDowell.

You couldn't make it up.

freddyfreeload

axer wrote:

I'll take it you are joking about Michael McDougal being "a sharp, intelligent commited guy". His appointment as party leader has left me in a dilemma. I can no longer vote for FF because they are now in bed with a mad man. I can't vote for Fine Gael because I would never let Enda Kenny behind the wheel. The only option left is Greens or Sinn Fein. There are no real Greens candidates in my area. So I have no choice but to vote for Sinn Fein.

Tut, tut, some days you look at the menu and just think, "You know, there's nothing I really fancy today." Perhaps you hadn't noticed, but FF and McDowell have been served up on the same platter for at least four years. I don't know where you live, but I bet if you looked you'd find some Greens. And you seem to have forgotten Labour, they're usually to be found somewhere between the salads and the main courses. Now... what's for dessert?

ff

Victor

freddyfreeload wrote:

Now... what's for dessert?

Lucious Liz

Tricity Bendix

freddyfreeload wrote:

That's kind of my point. What they giveth with their mealy mouths they taketh away with their pens. In McDowell's case what he says to the camera is rather belied by his track record: Citizenship Bill, the misrepresentation that fuelled it and his penchant for draconian deportation tactics.

I'll accept that the Citizenship was supported by some rather unsavoury characters, but I wouldn't blame McDowell for that. His reasons for holding the referendum were not in any way racist. It was unfortunate that the referendum seemingly gave succour to the anti-immigration lobby, but I wouldn't say it was inherintly an anti-immigration Bill. Rather, it was introduced to keep us in line with the rest of Europe.

Could they have done otherwise having endorsed the Nice Treaty?

Well, only two other countries acted the same as us, so I think it could very easily have been done differently.

And I think, as has been implied, that being pro-cheap labour is hardly the same as being pro-immigration.

Its not only about unskilled and 'cheap' labour, although that is a large and important part. Its also about attracting the best and brightest here to live, work and contribute to Irish society.

MontgomeryClift

b.ie curious wrote:

Its not only about unskilled and 'cheap' labour, although that is a large and important part. Its also about attracting the best and brightest here to live, work and contribute to Irish society.

But we don't get the 'best and brightest.' Just because Poland loses an engineering graduate, doesn't mean we get an engineer. We just get low wage workers. It's cheap labour - Bottom rung immigration.

freddyfreeload

b.ie curious wrote:

I'll accept that the Citizenship was supported by some rather unsavoury characters, but I wouldn't blame McDowell for that. His reasons for holding the referendum were not in any way racist. It was unfortunate that the referendum seemingly gave succour to the anti-immigration lobby, but I wouldn't say it was inherintly an anti-immigration .

So you wouldn't say that he (as Justice Minister) proposed the referendum in any way, or drafted it, or rushed it through, or selected the rather divisive date, or over-egged the opinions of our maternity hospital heads, or will be likely to claim it as a feather in his cap when he campaigns at the next election?

b.ie curious wrote:

Rather, it was introduced to keep us in line with the rest of Europe

And out of line with international human rights law.

Though I think the wish to close a constitutional loophole was more pressing on McDowell and Co, than a penchant for EU harmonisation. If the latter was so crucial we'd be amending our corporation tax levels.

ff

freddyfreeload

Victor wrote:

Lucious Liz

With whipped or ice-cream, Sir?

Tricity Bendix

So you wouldn't say that he (as Justice Minister) proposed the referendum in any way, or drafted it,

I don't think there was anything wrong with the way it was drafted. It does what it was meant to do.

or rushed it through

There certainly wasn't a lack of debate! Both sides got a fair airing of their views.

or selected the rather divisive date

That really doesn't hold water. McDowell was the public face of a Bill that was passed by an overwhelming majority of Irish people. Meanwhile, his own party lost council seats around the country. The issue was above mere party politics.

Though I think the wish to close a constitutional loophole was more pressing on McDowell and Co, than a penchant for EU harmonisation. If the latter was so crucial we'd be amending our corporation tax levels.

I wouldn't suggest that the referendum was held just to show how much we love the EU. Rather, Ireland came under pressure to change its constitution as Irish citizenship automatically gives people european citizenship. So it makes sense that our European overlords would want to protect their borders.

Anyway, its Europe that needs to amend its corporation tax levels;)

freddyfreeload

I still reckon he'll campaign on it as an example of personal success. And pitch it how you like, it's still not pro-immigration. And the fact that the majority supported it, and identify McDowell as its architect, is both the reason he'll make a big deal of it and a reason the PD's may now attract more voters.

b.ie curious wrote:

Anyway, its Europe that needs to amend its corporation tax levels

Sure if they did that we'd just halve ours

ff

Cork

Anyway, its Europe that needs to amend its corporation tax levels

It is - low coperation rates has worked for this country.

There is freedom of movement of labour within the EU. Some TDs need to accept this.

Pet Rabbits 40 million poles comment was absurd.

McDowell always behaved responsibly. People from Eastern Europe are making a massive contribution to our economy.

Sgt. Sensible

freddyfreeload wrote:

Sure if they did that we'd just halve ours

ff

Yup, and then what?