AJ post flop play

poker4life · 08-09-2006 10:21am #1

Here's a hand I've been thinking a lot about lately. It was 1/2 PL live game.
I have about €200, as do the other 2 players involved.
what I'm really interested in is the post flop play, not pre-flop, thx in advance but no comments that AJ shouldn't be played here etc! Just consider it from the point after flop has been dealt please.

Action:
I'm UTG+1, limp with AJo.
UTG+2 raises to 9, next player also calls. Everyone else folds.
Flop is A92 rainbow.
I bet €25, the other players both call.
Turn is 6, board now A962, no flush draw.
I bet €50, both players fold.

I'm not sure about the turn bet - I mean I'm only beating A10, A8-A3 on the flop and they both called. I think betting the flop is OK, if I get major heat I can fold, but the turn is interesting I think, especially after the other players both call the flop bet. What do you think, or what would you do on the turn???

AmarilloFats · 08-09-2006 10:40am

WELCOMe to boards

I wouldn't open limp here..I mean..OOOH sorry No preflop comment..

As played...I prefer to check call flop lead turn.

If villain had AQ AK, he may very well just call your flop and turn bets...

Would you then check call the river???You've then basicallly played for your 100BB stack.

Select * from Tbl Preflop
Where action = 'Open limp'

Hitman Actual · 08-09-2006 10:47am

poker4life wrote:

Here's a hand I've been thinking a lot about lately. It was 1/2 PL live game.
I have about €200, as do the other 2 players involved.
what I'm really interested in is the post flop play, not pre-flop, thx in advance but no comments that AJ shouldn't be played here etc! Just consider it from the point after flop has been dealt please.

Action:
I'm UTG+1, limp with AJo.
UTG+2 raises to 9, next player also calls. Everyone else folds.
Flop is A92 rainbow.
I bet €25, the other players both call.
Turn is 6, board now A962, no flush draw.
I bet €50, both players fold.

I'm not sure about the turn bet - I mean I'm only beating A10, A8-A3 on the flop and they both called. I think betting the flop is OK, if I get major heat I can fold, but the turn is interesting I think, especially after the other players both call the flop bet. What do you think, or what would you do on the turn???

You haven't posted any info on the other players, which makes it hard to give any useful replies. What hands do they show down or raise with, are they weak-tight, passive, etc. And how are you percieved? If you haven't much info on the other players, then give a description of the standard of play in general, as a certain 'style' tends to dominate in these games.

But it is hard to analyse without talking about the pre-flop play, which is ropey.

poker4life · 08-09-2006 10:47am

AmarilloFats wrote:

If villain had AQ AK, he may very well just call your flop and turn bets...

Would you then check call the river???You've then basicallly played for your 100BB stack.

I agree totally, AK or AQ could easily of called both my bets, and screwed me (or more correctly I screwed myself). But I think flop bet is fine, but the turn action is dubious - I was just lucky I think that they obviously had squat. Then again I don't want them getting a free card to whatever holding they had.

Only reason no pre-flop comments is that I know the pre-flop play is dodgy, and led me into a dangerous scenario. But it worked out alright that time!

poker4life · 08-09-2006 10:49am

lenny_leonard wrote:

You haven't posted any info on the other players, which makes it hard to give any useful replies. What hands do they show down or raise with, are they weak-tight, passive, etc. And how are you percieved? If you haven't much info on the other players, then give a description of the standard of play in general, as a certain 'style' tends to dominate in these games.

But it is hard to analyse without talking about the pre-flop play, which is ropey.

No I was new to the table, just sat down, so no info whatsoever. Yes its tough to figure out, that's why I posted it!
I know pre-flop is ropey, that's why theres's no need to discuss it imo.

AmarilloFats · 08-09-2006 10:55am

poker4life wrote:

I agree totally, AK or AQ could easily of called both my bets, and screwed me (or more correctly I screwed myself). But I think flop bet is fine, but the turn action is dubious - I was just lucky I think that they obviously had squat. Then again I don't want them getting a free card to whatever holding they had.

Only reason no pre-flop comments is that I know the pre-flop play is dodgy, and led me into a dangerous scenario. But it worked out alright that time!

As LL says without reads on villains it's difficult to give anything other than general comment..
PLaying AJ like this will lose you money..

careca · 08-09-2006 10:59am

What would you have done if you were reraised on the turn. Whatever about betting the turn, I would not have bet half the pot, i think its a very weak bet and one that screams thats you don't want a caller. If the callers were aggressive then they could easily have sensed weakness and come over the top.

cardshark202 · 08-09-2006 10:59am

AmarilloFats wrote:

Select * from Tbl Preflop
Where action = 'Open limp'

Please refrain from typing SQL like code in this forum. SQL wrecks my head.

careca · 08-09-2006 11:02am

cardshark202 wrote:

Please refrain from typing SQL like code in this forum. SQL wrecks my head.

Cue a load of 'funny' sql statements.

AmarilloFats · 08-09-2006 11:03am

careca wrote:

Cue a load of 'funny' sql statements.

Damn you careca...I can't follow that now.

poker4life · 08-09-2006 11:03am

careca wrote:

What would you have done if you were reraised on the turn. Whatever about betting the turn, I would not have bet half the pot, i think its a very weak bet and one that screams thats you don't want a caller. If the callers were aggressive then they could easily have sensed weakness and come over the top.

I agree, I'm not happy at all with the turn play.
I don't know what I would of done on the turn tbh. I'd certainly have to consider folding if someone put me all in.
So if not a half pot bet, what would you do yourself on the turn?

Hitman Actual · 08-09-2006 11:07am

Okay, your bets out of position are putting you in a situation where you're almost pot-commiting yourself, and if the money does go in here (either on the turn or the river), you'll be stacked most of the time. Also, maybe checking the turn makes you more money as you give the opportunity to one of the other players to bluff. But if they bet, do you still like calling with TP-weak kicker (I rate a jack as a weak kicker anyway).

Now, I'm not the best cash game player here by a long shot, so you might get better analysis from some of the other guys. but I think going broke with top pair in a cash game is considered poor. It worked out this time because you were almost definately ahead, but don't get yourself into that position again!

Welcome to Boards, btw.

Hitman Actual · 08-09-2006 11:10am

cardshark202 wrote:

Please refrain from typing SQL like code in this forum. SQL wrecks my head.

I was wondering wtf that was. AmarilloFats is a nerd!

As are quite a lot of guys here.

5starpool · 08-09-2006 11:13am

lenny_leonard wrote:

I was wondering wtf that was. AmarilloFats is a nerd!

As are quite a lot of guys here.

Says someone who will come up with a mad head wrecking maths formula why it is likely a K will come on the turn 7.2956% of the time or some such carp.

poker4life · 08-09-2006 11:20am

lenny_leonard wrote:

But if they bet, do you still like calling with TP-weak kicker (I rate a jack as a weak kicker anyway).

but I think going broke with top pair in a cash game is considered poor.

I agree with what you're saying. No, I don't like my hand at all with any callers or raisers on the turn. Unless I was extremely confident they were bluffing, there's no way I'm committing the rest of my tank with that hand.
So I don't think I'm going broke on this hand, it would of course be terrible play to do so!
If I check the turn, I probably would not even call a decent sized bet if one of the others bets - don't see how I could really. So I'm effectively check/folding the turn if I check. Maybe I should do that, or maybe I should bet? Arghhh, which one????

ntlbell · 08-09-2006 11:22am

[FONT=helvetica,sans serif,arial]SELECT standard_flaming FROM hector_jelly WHERE meaningful_content = 'NONE';

[/FONT][FONT=helvetica,sans serif,arial]SELECT standard_flaming FROM hector_jelly WHERE [/FONT][FONT=helvetica,sans serif,arial]clue > 0;[/FONT]
[FONT=helvetica,sans serif,arial]

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poker4life · 08-09-2006 11:26am

SELECT advice_to_leave_it_out FROM poker4life WHERE carrying_a_joke_too_far = 'TRUE';

califano · 08-09-2006 11:37am

handiest thing to say is "Only just joined the table so no read on the villains";) .

poker4life · 08-09-2006 11:42am

rounders123 wrote:

handiest thing to say is "Only just joined the table so no read on the villains";) .

:rolleyes: OK, its actually true here, but I would of said it anyway!

Hitman Actual · 08-09-2006 1:07pm

poker4life wrote:

I agree with what you're saying. No, I don't like my hand at all with any callers or raisers on the turn. Unless I was extremely confident they were bluffing, there's no way I'm committing the rest of my tank with that hand.
So I don't think I'm going broke on this hand, it would of course be terrible play to do so!
If I check the turn, I probably would not even call a decent sized bet if one of the others bets - don't see how I could really. So I'm effectively check/folding the turn if I check. Maybe I should do that, or maybe I should bet? Arghhh, which one????

I think check-fold is best.

DeadParrot · 08-09-2006 1:46pm

you see, im a SQL nerd too and even I thought that was too much

Bandana boy · 08-09-2006 1:53pm

In fairness a lot of live games in Dublin and a lot of players I would check call turn and river here and expect to be ahead most of the time

Hectorjelly · 08-09-2006 2:08pm

poker4life wrote:

Here's a hand I've been thinking a lot about lately. It was 1/2 PL live game.
I have about €200, as do the other 2 players involved.
what I'm really interested in is the post flop play, not pre-flop, thx in advance but no comments that AJ shouldn't be played here etc! Just consider it from the point after flop has been dealt please.

Action:
I'm UTG+1, limp with AJo.
UTG+2 raises to 9, next player also calls. Everyone else folds.
Flop is A92 rainbow.
I bet €25, the other players both call.
Turn is 6, board now A962, no flush draw.
I bet €50, both players fold.

I'm not sure about the turn bet - I mean I'm only beating A10, A8-A3 on the flop and they both called. I think betting the flop is OK, if I get major heat I can fold, but the turn is interesting I think, especially after the other players both call the flop bet. What do you think, or what would you do on the turn???

Why did you call preflop? Do you think this is going to be profitable?
WHy did you bet the flop? Do you think u make more money by betting or checking?
Why bet the turn? Is this a bluff? Value bet? Are you worried about draws?

I think you chose the worst option at each stage during the hand. Bar the limp pre which I like.

Sangre · 08-09-2006 2:10pm

Check-fold for me here, you're never being called on turn by a hand that beats you really (by any decent player that is).
Ak, AQ, two pair and set (unlikely non-draw board) could have just flat called your bet as you limp call PF then bet OOP (shows a bit of strength imo). Maybe they sensed strength, folded even though they were ahead.

poker4life · 08-09-2006 2:33pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

Why did you call preflop? Do you think this is going to be profitable?
WHy did you bet the flop? Do you think u make more money by betting or checking?
Why bet the turn? Is this a bluff? Value bet? Are you worried about draws?

I think you chose the worst option at each stage during the hand. Bar the limp pre which I like.

Thx for the reply. However just let me say that I too am definitely in the "not liking the style of HJ's posts" camp.
Anyway, to answer your multiple questions as quickly as I can:

Why call preflop?
Because the action ends at me, it's only 7 to see the flop at odds of 3 to 1, I'm new to the table, don't know how its playing, how the players play etc. Don't know if its profitable at this particular table, as it turns out it was. Other times/places I would not play the same.

I bet the flop coz I have top pair, and I want to knock out anyone with for example a pocket pair (raiser could have had KK, QQ for example) or whatever and take the pot. I think checking the flop is bad - giving a free card to potentially worse ace for example.
Do you ever give answers, or just ask questions? So do I make more by checking or betting the flop?

I agree the turn bet is bad, I guess I just wasn't convinced by the manner in which the other 2 reluctantly called the flop bet. Thought they could be play-acting, but no they weren't. No, I'm not particularily worried about draws. Are you?

BTW, just curious - if I didn't think calling pre-flop would be profitable, why on earth would I call? What's the point of your question? Of course I thought it would be profitable.

Hectorjelly · 08-09-2006 2:55pm

poker4life wrote:

Thx for the reply. However just let me say that I too am definitely in the "not liking the style of HJ's posts" camp.
Anyway, to answer your multiple questions as quickly as I can:

Why call preflop?
Because the action ends at me, it's only 7 to see the flop at odds of 3 to 1, I'm new to the table, don't know how its playing, how the players play etc. Don't know if its profitable at this particular table, as it turns out it was. Other times/places I would not play the same.

I bet the flop coz I have top pair, and I want to knock out anyone with for example a pocket pair (raiser could have had KK, QQ for example) or whatever and take the pot. I think checking the flop is bad - giving a free card to potentially worse ace for example.
Do you ever give answers, or just ask questions? So do I make more by checking or betting the flop?

I agree the turn bet is bad, I guess I just wasn't convinced by the manner in which the other 2 reluctantly called the flop bet. Thought they could be play-acting, but no they weren't. No, I'm not particularily worried about draws. Are you?

BTW, just curious - if I didn't think calling pre-flop would be profitable, why on earth would I call? What's the point of your question? Of course I thought it would be profitable.

Ok, I asked the questions to get an idea of your thinking. Preflop I think it definitelyis not profitable. Look at what happened, you managed to put €50 in on the turn with top pair hoping they both fold, and having no real clue where you stand. If you were in position or had a read on your opponents then calling wouldnt be so bad. In the OP you said please dont mention preflop. This seems to be someone who realises that there call was bad but dont want to discuss it, when in fact you think it was good. Preflop is the key to this hand. Pot odds dont matter much preflop when there is still a lot of money to go in and you have a hand with reverse implied odds (22 has implied odds, not AJo).

Your flop thinking is flawed. The key to playing poker is to make the best decison at each stage based on how profitable it willbe. Betting the flop there is going to cost you money in the long run; the advantages are that it makes the hand easier for you to play and you get outdraw less, the disadvantagesare that you get better hands to call or raise you, worse hands fold and you stop someone bluffing you (a guy with KQo who is drawing dead will nearly always cb here). Again you need to look at the stacks andth epot, if the pot is big and the stacks shallow then betting is ok because you need to protect the pot. Here the pot is small and you shoulkd be more concerned with making a profit.

On the turn if you thinkyour hand is good you should check (this is assuming you are playing someone who will fold AT on the turn), if you think your hand is bad you should check as well. Again your making (a now big) bet with top pair, but if you get called you beaten. That bet has a negative expectation. I f you check you stand to make some money (potentially), if youbet you just make it easy for your opponnets to make money from you (by calling with AQ+ and folding jacks)

poker4life · 08-09-2006 3:09pm

Thx for that, I'm now definitely liking your post style!
I see the logic of what you are saying, it makes sense. I never thought about the flop play like that, and I can see now that checking the turn clearly is the play here. Pre-flop caling was bad too, the reasons I gave didn't really justify it.
Cheers for that, very helpful - I'm definitely going to think differently about my general play after that.

AJ post flop play

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