How do you think Irish Road Tax should work?

Signpost

Hey all,
Was listening to a topic there recently of how the EU are going trying to introduce a tax system by where you pay per carbon emissions of the car. Was just wondering from this what ye think is the best method of taxiation that the irish government could introduce on our roads. I feel that a system like the dutch (almost sure its the dutch anyway) is best where you pay the tax based on the weight of your car. For this reason smaller cars etc which are doing less damage arent compensating for bigger cars with similar engine sizes.

smash

pay per emission... so they install something in your car... guatrantee they'd also be detecting speed etc then. no thanks

dubstub

I think the emissions based tax is a great idea. Those who damage the environment more, pay more. Makers of luxury cars will also be given a huge incentive to build more efficient engines - so, those buying large-engined, expensive cars may not be hit that badly, once the engine is efficient.
On the other hand, those people flying around in 10-year-old bangers with plumes of black smoke billowing out the back will be given an incentive to buy a more modern, cleaner car.
It still doesn't clear up the problem of the huge depreciation of the cars on the roads (and in the dealerships) once VRT is axed though...


EDIT: re Steve06 - doubt that they'll be installing anything in your car. I imagine it'll be based on emissions test done when buying / NCTing the car. Imagine an additional levy would also be placed on petrol, as in the UK.

Signpost

No i think its bases on engine size etc. As in a big Merc will produce alot more emission (on paper anyway) than a small micra. Be based per manafactures stats id imagine! going to vote soon in europe thou i think so lets hope thats how its being measured lol

Lord Nikon

Road tax should be included in your petrol/diesel purchase. You pay your tax when the car is running. A bigger car/truck would take more fuel and so the tax is highter. Road Tax would work this way and fairly.
It also should not make a difference whether the vehicel is Private or Commercial.

dubstub

neuromancer wrote:

It also should not make a difference whether the vehicel is Private or Commercial.

You wouldn't be saying that if you ran a company and your livelyhood relied on having a fleet of vehicles on the road.

Not that I do, but I do avail of commercial tax on my Jeep... and legitimately as well.

Lord Nikon

From an Emisions point of few I feel I am correct. Based on your point, I would agree with you fully.

I would feel the same and legally justified if i owned a commercial jeep, and paying sub €300 Road Tax.

Stephen

Bear in mind that petrol and diesel are used for more than just road traffic (agri machinery, generators, industrial plant etc), so you may have the situation where non-road users of petrol or diesel are getting stung.

Signpost

Stephen wrote:

Bear in mind that petrol and diesel are used for more than just road traffic (agri machinery, generators, industrial plant etc), so you may have the situation where non-road users of petrol or diesel are getting stung.

Thats easily abvoided stephen, dont put the tax on agri diseal. The diseals are differentiated by red and green already so dont charge it on one. Probably make customs job a lot lot harder then thou!

Seth Brundle

Signpost wrote:

No i think its bases on engine size etc. As in a big Merc will produce alot more emission (on paper anyway) than a small micra. Be based per manafactures stats id imagine! going to vote soon in europe thou i think so lets hope thats how its being measured lol

True but what about a new merc compared to an old micra?

seamus

Stephen wrote:

Bear in mind that petrol and diesel are used for more than just road traffic (agri machinery, generators, industrial plant etc), so you may have the situation where non-road users of petrol or diesel are getting stung.

Fuels which are not used for running vehicles are subject to different taxation that ordinary petrol or diesel, so they're already cheaper. As it is, thousands of people already escape tax by using industrial/commercial/household diesel ("green" diesel) in their vehicles. By applying road tax to fuel, then you just have more people dodging road tax, and no easy way to catch them (when's the last time you got dipped in Dublin?).

I think emissions-based is probably a fair idea - when you buy the car new, the car (the model, not the individual car) is tested and rated by the government, and you pay an according amount of road tax. At each NCT, your car is tested and reclassified if necessary. A more complicated but even fairer system would also take the weight of the vehicle into account.

dubstub

Stephen wrote:

Bear in mind that petrol and diesel are used for more than just road traffic (agri machinery, generators, industrial plant etc), so you may have the situation where non-road users of petrol or diesel are getting stung.

Is that not what red diesel is for though?

Signpost

seamus wrote:

A more complicated but even fairer system would also take the weight of the vehicle into account.

Def agree with you here. Dont suppose there is any chance of our lack luster govt implementing somethin as logical as this thou is there?

Lord Nikon

seamus wrote:

A more complicated but even fairer system would also take the weight of the vehicle into account.

My only arguement to the weight theory...

Toyota Prius - Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (AT-PZEV)
Weight - 2890 lbs

Ford Focus 1.4 5 door - CO2 emissions(g/km) 159
Weight - 2749.16 lbs

Signpost

Weight damaging road ->
Prob be in same cat tax - 2890 vs 2749 - maybe 2500 to 3000lbs
HUMMER H2 - 6400lbs

Lord Nikon

Hummer H2, now you talkin'

RobAMerc

Road tax should be abolished.
All Irish roads should have been well paid for years ago, and all new ones are taxed in the form of tolls.

As this is not an option the extra tax on the petrol seems the most sensible choice, insurance could go that way too, but thats even less unlikely.

The weight thing is obsured as more weight does not mean more damage to environment and would mean the govt has to do a U turn on its current taxation system which claims to be based on environmental concern.

Signpost

lol said id go a bix extreme for the sake of a point neuromancer lol
RobAMerc dunno bout aboloshing road tax but tolls should be abolised. The new toll into fermoy when it opens will be €5.30 for a artic lorry. Crossing this a couple times a week will be an expensive venture. Can see why there boycotting it and saying there going to continue through the town!

RobAMerc

Signpost wrote:

The new toll into fermoy when it opens will be €5.30 for a artic lorry.

Looks to me that the first thing ready on that road are the toll stations, just goes to show where the priorities are

galah

emissions-based tax is a good idea. Or just tax fuel - I'm sure that would make a lot of people think twice about taking the car if they can walk - if a liter of fuel costs, say, 2.50 Euro.

On top of that, I think people who drive massive 4x4s should prove that they *really* need it to drive off-road (farmers, people who actually need to tow trailers and stuff) - and everyone else should be taxed to death for driving these monsters that obstruct other driver's views, take up too much space, and generally cause a nuisance. Women who only use these cars to take their kids to school and show off to the Jones'es should, on top of that, be shot.

Evil Phil

I can't see the Revenue shooting people, but only because theres laws against it.

Tax at the pump I say, its a fair system for road use and emissions as you're only paying for what you're using. Commercial vehicles could then claim a rebate from the revenue.

seamus

neuromancer wrote:

My only arguement to the weight theory...

Toyota Prius - Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (AT-PZEV)
Weight - 2890 lbs

Ford Focus 1.4 5 door - CO2 emissions(g/km) 159
Weight - 2749.16 lbs

Well I'm not talking about massive taxes based on the weight of the vehicle, but it has a massive bearing on the roads. Even a large truck with zero emissions (for example) would have a large toll on the roads in terms of worn tarmac, mud and dirt thrown up onto buildings and hedges, damage to grass verges, etc etc.

I'm sure some clever individual could devise a formula wherby you insert the GDVW of your vehicle and its emissions and you get a single figure back called the "Environmental impact index" or something. Then you get taxed based on this index. Sounds fair to me. Since the index would be calculated when you buy the vehicle and/or get it NCT'd, there's no messing - the motor tax office is informed of your vehicle's rating and charges you accordingly. People don't have to try and mess about with calculators and can't fiddle the figures.

zilog_jones

I think emissions-based tax is the way to go. However:

dubstub wrote:

On the other hand, those people flying around in 10-year-old bangers with plumes of black smoke billowing out the back will be given an incentive to buy a more modern, cleaner car.

I totally disagree with this - they should make it so people driving older cars are not penalised by comparing emissions with modern cars. The amount of energy/emissions/resources used to manufacture and dispose of a car is a very significant factor. Buying new cars frequently and disposing of old cars while they are still functional and have the potential to be perfectly roadworthy with a little maintenance (which a lot more people seem to do these days since the NCT was introduced) is not environmentally friendly at all

alias no.9

galah wrote:

emissions-based tax is a good idea. Or just tax fuel - I'm sure that would make a lot of people think twice about taking the car if they can walk - if a liter of fuel costs, say, 2.50 Euro.

On top of that, I think people who drive massive 4x4s should prove that they *really* need it to drive off-road (farmers, people who actually need to tow trailers and stuff) - and everyone else should be taxed to death for driving these monsters that obstruct other driver's views, take up too much space, and generally cause a nuisance. Women who only use these cars to take their kids to school and show off to the Jones'es should, on top of that, be shot.

What about men who only use these cars to take their kids to school and show off to the Jones'es?

I'm no fan of SUV's on the school run, but I think you've got some other issues you need to deal with.

themole

zilog_jones wrote:

I totally disagree with this - they should make it so people driving older cars are not penalised by comparing emissions with modern cars. The amount of energy/emissions/resources used to manufacture and dispose of a car is a very significant factor. Buying new cars frequently and disposing of old cars while they are still functional and have the potential to be perfectly roadworthy with a little maintenance (which a lot more people seem to do these days since the NCT was introduced) is not environmentally friendly at all

Hmm, valid point. What would be interesting to see is a proper analysis of the emmissions concerned. There is probably a threshold. A point where the new car has such lower emissions that even taking into account those produced in its manufacturer there would be an overall reduction.

The thing is that "old bangers" rarely keep going and i would say they are not the main problem. I would say the main problem would be old buses and trucks. If the vehicle is still road worthy then the best solution, in my opinion, would be to see if it would be viable to reduce it emissions. Possibly engine tuning/replacement/refurbishment. Dunno if it would stack up on a money front but I think its worth looking into.

dubstub

The new Scrap Car Regulations signed by Dick Roche recently stated:

"These Regulations will ensure that, when a car or small van reaches the end of it's useful life, there will be at least one facility available in their county or city where they can bring the vehicle free of charge in the knowledge that it will be depolluted and dismantled to a high standard. The steel, plastic, glass, tyres etc. will be recovered for recycling in a way that is not harmful to the environment", said the Minister.

That means that cars can be scrapped in an environmentally-friendly way when they come to the end of their lives. The emissions tax will encourage people to trade-up to more modern cars that are more environmentally friendly rather than keep their old cars and continue polluting the environment.
I just think that if the government is serious about the environmental angle that they are putting on road tax then this is the way to go.
The usual exemptions will apply to classic cars due to their infrequent use.

zilog_jones

Dubstub, you're missing the one big flaw in recycling - you need lots of energy (which usually means burning fossil fuels) to dismantle the car and recycle components into a re-usable product, especially plastics. I'd much rather let someone go around in their '89 Carina until it actually dies rather than scrapping it now while it's still in full working order.

And vehicles on the road over 10 years old are definately a minority, so they are not exactly the biggest cause of emissions in the country. Also, the majority of people owning bangers would be people who do not drive an awful lot, e.g. learners and retired people. People who have to commute every day to work via car or need a van or whatever for work would be much more likely to have a more dependable newer car.

Disposing of cars for the sake of them being old is pointless IMO, not to mention the fact it's going to make things a lot harder for classic enthusiasts/collectors in the future.

dubstub

Fair enough zilog_jones, I take your point.
Still, I imagine it'll be complex enough without bringing in extra rules based on the age of a car. For schemes like this to work, it usually helps to keep things simple. 130g/km - 140g/km -> €x 141g/km - 155g/km -> €y

I do see where you're coming from though.