Best river move

Bandana boy

So 1-2 full ring live
Villain is new to table has not played many hands i am at the moment running wild over the table
the 1 hand we have played together i raised lp bet half the pot on raggedy flop checked the turn and lead for 40% on river villain called with A high 5 kicker and his hand was good

So on BB 6 limpers i have A9 diamonds and i raise to 13 3 callers including villain who is utg+2
I check blind
Flop comes j high 2 diamonds Villain leads for 25 folded to me and i make it 75 to play after some thought he calls
turn is a diamond woo hoo i lead for 125 he puts 200 in middle then calls raise dealer says that this is only a call. I am obv anoyed but say nothing
River is a blank
Pot is 450 Villain has 275 i cover
what is my best move here and why
what would you do if he intentionally flat called

fuzzbox

just move in.

RoadSweeper

bet 200, let him push the rest!

fuzzbox

RoadSweeper wrote:

bet 200, let him push the rest!

Let him push the last 75 ??? Thats just silly.

RoadSweeper

yea but he's not gonna fold. so jus have some fun!

valor

this isnt complicated, just push

luckyvegas7

If he reads you for the flush i dont think hes calling the rest of his stack.. bet out 150 he will pay u off. Then again if he cant fold take his money

Bandana boy

the way i see it i am likely to get a push called by a smaller flush and a set maybe by 2 pair
And with the smaller flush he is likely to bet into me ?
All other hands should fold to a push surely ? what hands that folds a push bets out if i check ?
In the hand in question I pushed and he called with 2nd flush so i was getting the money in anyway but i did get some comments (in smoking section)that a check might do better against his range here ?

Lafortezza

Just push, it's a lot simpler than the rest of the way you played the hand!
Raising from the BB with medium Ace, checking dark, check-raise, lead turn, push river...

Killme00

lafortezza wrote:

Just push, it's a lot simpler than the rest of the way you played the hand!
Raising from the BB with medium Ace, checking dark, check-raise, lead turn, push river...

Yeah just push..i think that if is calling anything..he will call a push

Kamaldihnio

luckyvegas7 wrote:

If he reads you for the flush i dont think hes calling the rest of his stack.. bet out 150 he will pay u off. Then again if he cant fold take his money

I agree with this theory.

Hectorjelly

Kamaldihnio wrote:

I agree with this theory.

I dont. If he will call 150 he will almost certainly call 270

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont. If he will call 150 he will almost certainly call 270

push.

Kamaldihnio

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont. If he will call 150 he will almost certainly call 270

If you bet 270 on river after he was trying to raise turn, what does that tell villain. I know if something like that happened to me Id think twice about calling. Id even bet 100 to get a pay me bet rather than the 150. Betting 270 is a fold from villain or a insane call. And If he has lower flush he will more than likely go all in anyway.

(its unfortunate that villains raise didn't stand, but because of that betting 270 now tells that you are very strong, and would probably get a fold)

Gholimoli

Kamaldihnio wrote:

If you bet 270 on river after he was trying to raise turn, what does that tell villain. I know if something like that happened to me Id think twice about calling. Id even bet 100 to get a pay me bet rather than the 150. Betting 270 is a fold from villain or a insane call. And If he has lower flush he will more than likely go all in anyway.

(its unfortunate that villains raise didn't stand, but because of that betting 270 now tells that you are very strong, and would probably get a fold)

Your missing the point here.
the point is if he has a hand that will call 150 then he will also call 270 with it as well.
There is no hand there that is willing to pay 150 bet and not a 270 bet.
also to bet 100 and not 150 just because there is more chance of getting paid for 100 is totally flawed logic.
Your should adjust your bet sizes in a manner that has maximum expectation.
For example:
if you think he will call a $100 bet 60% of the time but will only call a $270 bet 30% of the time you should still bet 270 because it has a higher expectation.

cooker3

Gholimoli wrote:

Your missing the point here.
the point is if he has a hand that will call 150 then he will also call 270 with it as well.
There is no hand there that is willing to pay 150 bet and not a 270 bet.
also to bet 100 and not 150 just because there is more chance of getting paid for 100 is totally flawed logic.
Your should adjust your bet sizes in a manner that has maximum expectation.
For example:
if you think he will call a $100 bet 60% of the time but will only call a $270 bet 30% of the time you should still bet 270 because it has a higher expectation.

oh dear god, not this debate again!

Gholimoli

cooker3 wrote:

oh dear god, not this debate again!

its not a debate,its a fact and it certainly wasnt aimed at you so whats your problem?

Bandana boy

Gholimoli wrote:

Your missing the point here.
the point is if he has a hand that will call 150 then he will also call 270 with it as well.
There is no hand there that is willing to pay 150 bet and not a 270 bet.
also to bet 100 and not 150 just because there is more chance of getting paid for 100 is totally flawed logic.
Your should adjust your bet sizes in a manner that has maximum expectation.
For example:
if you think he will call a $100 bet 60% of the time but will only call a $270 bet 30% of the time you should still bet 270 because it has a higher expectation.

So i guess my question to rephrase it
We have a range of hands villain can have

1 hands that will call a push and will push a check (other flushs maybe a set)
2 hands that will call a push but check it down (2 pair op etc)
3 hands that will fold a push but bet a check ( air maybe op )
4 hands that will fold a push and check a check

With the current action from villain trying to re-raise me on turn but failing is a check more profitable than a push
is a bet which can be re-raised bluffed at ie 50-75 a better option

Gholimoli

Bandana boy wrote:

So i guess my question to rephrase it
We have a range of hands villain can have

1 hands that will call a push and will push a check (other flushs maybe a set)
2 hands that will call a push but check it down (2 pair op etc)
3 hands that will fold a push but bet a check ( air maybe op )
4 hands that will fold a push and check a check

With the current action from villain trying to re-raise me on turn but failing is a check more profitable than a push
is a bet which can be re-raised bluffed at ie 50-75 a better option

The point is the flush was there when he made an attempt to bet.
He either has something or he doesn’t.
If he has something then you prob have a higher expectation by pushing.
If he has nothing then best you get out of him is a bluff attempt .

Kamaldihnio

Bandana boy wrote:

So i guess my question to rephrase it
We have a range of hands villain can have

1 hands that will call a push and will push a check (other flushs maybe a set)
2 hands that will call a push but check it down (2 pair op etc)
3 hands that will fold a push but bet a check ( air maybe op )
4 hands that will fold a push and check a check

With the current action from villain trying to re-raise me on turn but failing is a check more profitable than a push
is a bet which can be re-raised bluffed at ie 50-75 a better option

That was my thinking with the 100 bet. it allows him to think u may be bluffing and he may reraise u with a bluff or any of the other hands u mention. If u get called with AJ, thas all u wud have got anyway. Hence pay me bet. Before u go mad at me Goli, this is jut my opinion. ;-)

Killme00

Kamaldihnio wrote:

That was my thinking with the 100 bet. it allows him to think u may be bluffing and he may reraise u with a bluff or any of the other hands u mention. If u get called with AJ, thas all u wud have got anyway. Hence pay me bet. Before u go mad at me Goli, this is jut my opinion. ;-)

I still prefer to push

Gholimoli

Kamaldihnio wrote:

That was my thinking with the 100 bet. it allows him to think u may be bluffing and he may reraise u with a bluff or any of the other hands u mention. If u get called with AJ, thas all u wud have got anyway. Hence pay me bet. Before u go mad at me Goli, this is jut my opinion. ;-)

I know its just your opinion and im trying to point out where and why your logic is flawed.
If you bet $100 here then there will be $550 in the pot and if he calls it will be $650 .
He has 170 left to bet at this so if he does then we have to call $170 to win $820.
That’s nearly 5:1 odds, which means we are deffo calling which means villain is almost never going to bluff raise out $100 bet so its wrong to say villain might bluff us if we only bet $100.

But if he has a genuine hand that he likes and he thinks it may be the best hand he may just call that 100. That’s where the problem starts cuz he may like his hand enough to call a 200 bet in which case our losing 100.
The point is the pot is 450 and he has 270 behind him .if he has a hand that he thinks may have a winning chance then he will pay the remaining 270(getting 2.6:1 on his money) and if he doesn’t then he is not going to pay you anything.
So you have to choose an option which will have the highest expectation here and that is to push.
If the stacks were deeper then it would be different.

Kamaldihnio

Bandana boy wrote:

So 1-2 full ring live
Villain is new to table has not played many hands i am at the moment running wild over the table
the 1 hand we have played together i raised lp bet half the pot on raggedy flop checked the turn and lead for 40% on river villain called with A high 5 kicker and his hand was good

So on BB 6 limpers i have A9 diamonds and i raise to 13 3 callers including villain who is utg+2
I check blind
Flop comes j high 2 diamonds Villain leads for 25 folded to me and i make it 75 to play after some thought he calls
turn is a diamond woo hoo i lead for 125 he puts 200 in middle then calls raise dealer says that this is only a call. I am obv anoyed but say nothing
River is a blank
Pot is 450 Villain has 275 i cover
what is my best move here and why
what would you do if he intentionally flat called

So as a matter of interest, what happend, what did you do?

Bandana boy

i pushed the river and he insta called with K high flush for 2nd nuts so money was going in anyway wether i bet or checked
What raised the post was shortly after while having a smoke a player from table suggested that pushing was a bad move against players range

gosplan

Not sure if I agree with the bet 150 idea.

This is pretty much a min-raise to a villian who just announced his intention to raise. I'd see this as a bet that wants to be called.

Pushing is much more credible.