Free Card Yes/No?

NickyOD

90 players out of 1640 left in the $6 rebuy on Party. I'm gtd. $54. Very nice money for final table if I can get there. ($6.5K for first) Payouts are very flat up to last 20 runners.

Average Stack is now 250K. I have 320K. Blinds 8K/16K. I've just moved to the table so no reads on the villain.

Table $15K Gtd. Rebuy(819472) Table 10 (Real Money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: ELVIS_tyvm (186328)
Seat 2: Harmony55 (142193)
Seat 4: i_HAD_outs (24784)
Seat 5: ed15052000 (93499)
Seat 6: johnpaul1 (196672)
Seat 7: YellowStripe (439649)
Seat 8: NickyOD (319190)
Seat 9: eagleroo2 (233600)
Seat 10: sca11ywag (695484)
ante (400)
eagleroo2 posts small blind (8000)
sca11ywag posts big blind (16000)

Dealt to NickyOD [ 7s, 8s ]
ELVIS_tyvm folds.
Harmony55 folds.
i_HAD_outs folds.
ed15052000 folds.
johnpaul1 folds.
YellowStripe folds.
NickyOD raises (40000) to 40000
sca11ywag raises (68034) to 84034
NickyOD calls (44034)

** Dealing Flop ** : [ Js, Th, 4s ]
sca11ywag checks.
NickyOD ??????

sligobhoy

Push Push Push. too much invested to check. plus u have lots of outs. If u miss on the turn u have to fold.

poorbarman

Nicky push seems to be your best option,the flop is good for you,if you check and miss you have got to give it up.Push the flop and if called you have lots of outs.You will give yourself a healthy stack to move forward in the tourney if you hit

Lafortezza

NickyOD wrote:

NickyOD raises (40000) to 40000
sca11ywag raises (68034) to 84034
NickyOD calls (44034)

Did he min-raise you preflop or is that a proper raise?
I think I push anyway.

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Js 4s Th
cards  win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
8s 7s  473  47.78   517  52.22    0  0.00  0.478
Ac Ad  517  52.22   473  47.78    0  0.00  0.522

Even against top set you have 33% equity, so you don't need a huge amount of fold equity for pushing it to be a good move. Plus you have half your stack in there already.

Tipperarymike

though I wouldnt be as game for it as the two previous posters. With the bbs stack he was likely to call with a lot of hands in the first place, probably the way he earned his chips. His min raise would indicate he wanted you in the pot post flop. So while its not the gin flop you would have hoped for , its not far off it either. Knowing you Nicky, you are not worried about the 54 bucks already scooped, and you have to be aiming here to put a lesson on this table and dominate the it if you hit any one of your outs.

Hectorjelly

this is a strange thread, I have a feeling the consenus will be to push

Tipperarymike

i think it has to be, though that second bullet isnt easy to fire here either.

sligobhoy

Hectorjelly wrote:

this is a strange thread, I have a feeling the consenus will be to push

HECTOR no offence meant but if u havent anything useful to say then dont post

Hectorjelly

sligobhoy wrote:

HECTOR no offence meant but if u havent anything useful to say then dont post

Shouldnt you be in bed getting ready for a busy morning feeding the animals?

Anway I did have something usefull to post, it must of just been too subtle for you

ArmaniJeanss

Scallywags uneven reraise would scream Big Pocket Pair to me. I would be happy enough to see the turn for free.

padraig_f

Yeah, take the free card. When someone reraises you pre-flop, then checks the flop, it's usually not with the intention of folding. Checking is probably the move that alarms me most here, my first thought would be that he flopped a set.

Gholimoli

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

Scallywags uneven reraise would scream Big Pocket Pair to me. I would be happy enough to see the turn for free.

i would just love to see the turn for free here but unless im reading the pot totaly wrong then Nicky is first to act.
how do you intend to see the turn for free when first to act?

Gholimoli

padraig_f wrote:

Yeah, take the free card. When someone reraises you pre-flop, then checks the flop, it's usually not with the intention of folding. Checking is probably the move that alarms me most here, my first thought would be that he flopped a set.

i Tend to disagree here Padraig.
if you flopped a set on that board i think its very bad poker to check.
the board is full of draws and checking with a set isn’t good.
also villain here is more than likely on a high PP judging by the pre-flop action which means if you did have a set and you bet at this ,your bet could be interpreted as a draw or a prob bet and villain could come over the top to protect his hand which is good for you with a set.
by the same token leading with out a set here not good IMO as it will often result in villain pushing and then we are faced with a thought decision.
if you check this flop you are often giving it up unless villain bets very small or checks behind which are both very unlikely.
You cant call a big bet here either cuz your much better off pushing if you intend to call like a pot sized bet.
There is something like 160K in the pot which will put you in a very nice position.
Seen as this is top-heavy pay i like a push here with your hand.
If you had position on him it would be a different story obviously.

poorbarman

Gholi not quite tuned in yet?:D

Gholimoli

early in the morning folks disregard my comment.
i read it again and yes check behind is fine.
apologies folks.

lazlo

Hectorjelly wrote:

Anway I did have something usefull to post, it must of just been too subtle for you

subtlety isnt a word that I would ever use in association with you HJ--its remarkable how you continue to set new standards in conceitedness with each passing day...

Lafortezza

No personal insults please.

jem

i would take the free card, gut would tell me that he has hit and is seting u up 4 a check/ reraise.

connie147

lafortezza wrote:

Did he min-raise you preflop or is that a proper raise?
I think I push anyway.

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Js 4s Th
cards  win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
8s 7s  473  47.78   517  52.22    0  0.00  0.478
Ac Ad  517  52.22   473  47.78    0  0.00  0.522

Even against top set you have 33% equity, so you don't need a huge amount of fold equity for pushing it to be a good move. Plus you have half your stack in there already.

Nicky doesnt have half his stack in.He has 80k invested with 240k behind which is still the average stack.

Nicky,If I remember right, I remember you posting a few weeks ago that when a raiser gets minimum reraised by the BB , its almost always KK or AA.
I think you should take your free card here. His check is hoping that youll bet and commit your stack to the pot.

If you push, of course you will have outs but do you want a race at this stage with quite a healthy chip stack? Im pretty sure he's calling your bet.

Atlas_IRL

would a big raise not achieve the same result, if he calls and you dont hit you can still get out of the hand, although with low chips he will call you on the turn though regardless even if u hit and he doesnt

whats the general thoughts about party players raising then checking the flop?
alot of players tend to play similary on some sites in certain situations

sligobhoy

Hectorjelly wrote:

Shouldnt you be in bed getting ready for a busy morning feeding the animals?

Anway I did have something usefull to post, it must of just been too subtle for you[/QUOTE

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

godbird

id take the free card! you have a lot of outs and a miss on fourth street might still open more outs iif he is well ahead in terms of a over pair or set

you could be looking at a set but most likely high pair of 88 or 99

if you push i dont think he's going away

your flat call to a re raise on his part suggests that with that board that your on a draw

better to play the turn and try to get in ahead

Hectorjelly

If your 100% sure that the minreraise preflop is a big pair then checking behind is ok, but since you cant be that sure I think pushing is much better (or betting a pot commiting amount). On the flop your 50 50 with aces so getting all in is going to have a positive expectation considering the money already in the pot. And its an absolute disaster if the other guy has something like AK, the flop goes check check and then he pushes or bets the turn unimproved.

cardshark202

Yes I hope you pushed, he had AA and you backdoored two pair.

RoundTower

I would go all in, I think the small rr/check on the flop by an unknown is likely to be a missed AK often enough, and rarely QQ-AA. If he has JJ thats OK too.

Bandana boy

I think i might lead for 80K here
i will check a blank turn
If he pushs back i probably call

I know some would say that if i am willing to get all my chips in i should push but i think i want my continuation bet with fd/made hand or with air to be hard to distinguish

RoundTower

this is also good.

NickyOD

I insta-pushed. He had KK and I missed. I knew against AA/KK I was going to be about 43-47% depending on whether or not he had a spade. So with the chips already int he pot I gain a hell of a lot on average by pushing.

The value of checking behind though is hard to decypher since I have no idae how he plays. He may or may not price me out on the turn and like HJ said if he has AK taking a free card would be horrible.

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

If your 100% sure that the minreraise preflop is a big pair then checking behind is ok, but since you cant be that sure I think pushing is much better (or betting a pot commiting amount). On the flop your 50 50 with aces so getting all in is going to have a positive expectation considering the money already in the pot. And its an absolute disaster if the other guy has something like AK, the flop goes check check and then he pushes or bets the turn unimproved.

But its an absolute coup, if the flop goes check,check and he shoves the turn unimproved when we hit !!!

fuzzbox

NickyOD wrote:

I insta-pushed. He had KK and I missed. I knew against AA/KK I was going to be about 43-47% depending on whether or not he had a spade. So with the chips already int he pot I gain a hell of a lot on average by pushing.

The value of checking behind though is hard to decypher since I have no idae how he plays. He may or may not price me out on the turn and like HJ said if he has AK taking a free card would be horrible.

Taking the free card would only be minorly bad IF he will fold AK ... the board reads JTx ... a lot of players will call with AK there. (even more would shove the flop tho).

NickyOD

fuzzbox wrote:

But its an absolute coup, if the flop goes check,check and he shoves the turn unimproved when we hit !!!

The only real money card is a non spade 9 though.

fuzzbox

NickyOD wrote:

The only real money card is a non spade 9 though.

How do you figure that?
How can he put you on a spade draw, if you checked the flop?

I think you are mistaken.

NickyOD

fuzzbox wrote:

How do you figure that?
How can he put you on a spade draw, if you checked the flop?

I think you are mistaken.

How should I know how a morons mind works?

fuzzbox

NickyOD wrote:

How should I know how a morons mind works?

If you check, then there is no reason that a spade cannot be a money card.

Besides - how do you figure that he is a moron? He got you to commit all your chips with 8-high .