200NLHE KK hand

spectre

I'm in the CO with 210. Villain 1 is a maniac with 150. He frequently open min-raises preflop and is generating most of the table action. Villain 2 is solid and covers me.

Villain 1 open raises to 4. I make it 14 to go with KK. Villain 2 calls from the button. Villain 1 calls.

Flop (40)
10 6 4 two hearts

Villain 1 checks, I bet 32. Villain 2 smooth calls. Villain 1 folds.

Turn (120)
Qc

I check. Villain bets 60.

What now?

Sangre

Call and pot non-scary turn? Fold to All in?

Bit of a perdicament you've got yourself into, mainly because you checked the turn. What do you put villian on? You should have bet that queen flop again. He wil call with a number of hands that are behind you.
Villian is calling from button so his range is wider than normal, a10h+ etc., He could have air and merely checked because you showed weakness.
Do you think he would smooth call a scary flop like that with a set? I don't think he would.

How does villian see you?

pok3rplaya

call and fold to a big river bet. I like the turn check, I think the solid guy is representing a huge hand here because he smooth called even though the maniac was still to act and could do anything.

fuzzbox

Now shove.

Lafortezza

Could Villain have floated you?
I've been playing quite a bit of NL$200 in recent weeks and the good players tend to float occasionally, a turn checkraise in hands like this after betting the flop usually works and makes them less likely to do it in future against you.

Gholimoli

Sangre wrote:

Call and pot non-scary turn? Fold to All in?

Bit of a perdicament you've got yourself into, mainly because you checked the turn. What do you put villian on? You should have bet that queen flop again. He wil call with a number of hands that are behind you.
Villian is calling from button so his range is wider than normal, a10h+ etc., He could have air and merely checked because you showed weakness.
Do you think he would smooth call a scary flop like that with a set? I don't think he would.

How does villian see you?

this is a good way of playing losing poker.
this is all wrong man and i donno where to start.
villain flat calls a raise and a reraise pre-flop and then flat calls a raise on the flop and then bets the turn and you think we are in good shape?
also did you read the stack sizes at all?
your telling him to call a 60 bet on the turn and pot it on "none scary river" and fold to a push????
he dosent have enough to pot in on the river never mind folding afterwards.
also what is a "none scary river" in this case.
chances are your behind already anyway so would you consider a 2,3,4 none scary?

spectre

Why shove? A better hand never folds to our shove and a worse hand never calls. Are we happy to go broke everytime we are beat? Will this be a profitable shove?

Sangre

Gholimoli wrote:

this is a good way of playing losing poker.
this is all wrong man and i donno where to start.
villain flat calls a raise and a reraise pre-flop and then flat calls a raise on the flop and then bets the turn and you think we are in good shape?
also did you read the stack sizes at all?
your telling him to call a 60 bet on the turn and pot it on "none scary river" and fold to a push????
he dosent have enough to pot in on the river never mind folding afterwards.
also what is a "none scary river" in this case.
chances are your behind already anyway so would you consider a 2,3,4 none scary?

True, wasn't paying attention about the stack sizes. Didn't read post properly (I'm sure you've never been guilty of that )

Basically I think this is more a case of not to give advice on 1/2 as I'm not familiar with the betting patterns of players.

At 25/50c passive playing is nearly always a drawing hand, might even put him on a10h+
Although thinking about it more, I'd probably let this go, you'd don't have enough for more play without an all-in. I'd probably give him credit for TT and let it go, that is unless I had the slighest read on the fish-o-meter. This probably would be a profitable push at 25/50 imo.

I need to study my analysis better, what I'm typing and what I'd actually do aren't always corresponding. Guess thats why the great players aren't always great analysisers, two different sets of skills.

Gholimoli

Sangre wrote:

True, wasn't paying attention about the stack sizes. Didn't read post properly (I'm sure you've never been guilty of that )

Basically I think this is more a case of not to give advice on 1/2 as I'm not familiar with the betting patterns of players.

At 25/50c passive playing is nearly always a drawing hand. And I would nearly push turn expecting to be ahead enough times for it to be good play.

Judging by your advice you get stacked with over pairs quit a lot.
Even if stacks were deep enough so we can do what you suggest and that is to pot it on a none scary river and fold to an all in, its still a bad play.
If you get called you will almost certainly be behind.
If you get raised you cant possibly call even though you may get bluffed raised.
So what is the point of potting it on the river?

Sangre

I because I honestly would expect to be still ahead on a non-heart river, non-ace river.

I actually rarely get stacked with an overpair. Either because this hand hasn't shown enough to lay it down or because in reality I'm tighter than my analysis says. Also I think you're forgetting the difference between the levels we play at. Maybe I should disclaimer every post I make

*warning : I play with low level fishy idiots*


Just having a quick flick over hand histories, I think I need to think a lot more about what I post compared to how I play, here is a similar hand to above, which I folded.

Starting a new hand (#428064893)
sangre85 posts Small Blind $0.25
assomario posts Big Blind $0.50
Dealing cards
Your cards Qd Qh
JonnyKat calls $0.50
nineballl calls $0.50
kobe13 folds
sangre85 raises $3
assomario calls $2.75
JonnyKat calls $2.75
nineballl calls $2.75
Dealing Flop Tc Js 6h
sangre85 bets $8
assomario folds
JonnyKat folds
nineballl raises $16
sangre85 calls $8
Dealing Turn Tc Js 6h 2d
sangre85 checks
nineballl bets $25
sangre85 folds
Winner is nineballl $68
sangre85 is the dealer
Starting a new hand (#428065419)
#EOG.

spectre

Okay here are our options:

open Bet/push the turn: Bad, we are no longer betting for value, we want villain to fold. We also commit ourselves when behind.

check-call turn: Not as bad as we catch a floater/drawer here sometimes. However, we are still pot committed and will often go broke.

check-fold turn: Weak but we will often be behind here. Not sure about long term expectation. comments?

check-raise all-in turn: We catch floaters and commit our villain if he is drawing to a flush. However we will often go broke here as well.

So why is CRAI best?

Bandana boy

It depends on why you checked the turn
leading the turn gets most hands that you are far ahead of to fold so i am happy with turn check
If you checked to induce a bet from hands that are far behind you got your wish now push
If you checked because you are worried you might be behind and you want to minimse the pot get to cheap showdown then check call him down

folding here i believe is the wrong decision many more times than it is right

corc

hi,

I would be inclined to push here as was expressed above. would you really flat call a raise after the flop if you had a set and there was a flush draw out there?

I think the fact you checked on the turn game him a sense of weekness and he probably put u on top pair after the flop or even a flush drap and was not going to make it cheap for you to catch the flush and/or he could have been folding Q A.

I would push here after all you have cowboys, an overpair to everything on the board. I would push back and go all in at this stage. if he was slow playing the set then risky business with two hearts on the flop and you need a miracle to get out of it otherwise you have a great chance of doubling up.

valor

re raise more preflop.
turn check is fine, now push

spectre

I had re-raised Villain 1 a few times preflop and this was the only time that Villain 2 came along for the ride. His range is tight here and I put him on a pocket pair or AQs+
He has not tried to float me so far.

When he called my flop bet I was thinking his range is now 44 66 10 JJ QQ KK AA or AQh. I forgot to mention earlier that I have the King of hearts

The Queen on the turn now meant that I was only ahead of JJ, AKh, (total of 7 hands). I am behind AA, QQ, 1010, 66, 44 (total of 18 hands)

When he bet, I agonised over the decision and in the end I let the timer run out and my hand was folded. My gut feeling was that I was behind. Yes I know, I am weak.

Sangre

How could you put him on 66/44 if he is tight? Do you not think a set would raise that flop?

Kamaldihnio

spectre wrote:

I'm in the CO with 210. Villain 1 is a maniac with 150. He frequently open min-raises preflop and is generating most of the table action. Villain 2 is solid and covers me.

Villain 1 open raises to 4. I make it 14 to go with KK. Villain 2 calls from the button. Villain 1 calls.

Flop (40)
10 6 4 two hearts

Villain 1 checks, I bet 32. Villain 2 smooth calls. Villain 1 folds.

Turn (120)
Qc

I check. Villain bets 60.

What now?

I am interested in this.

Should you not have potted the turn rather than check. What could villan be calling you with, a set? Maybe he has A10 and is putting you on AK? He has top pair and there are draws on the board, you showed weakness in checking the turn so he bet. Maybe the bets a bluff because you checked it into him, he could also have AK of hearts, AQ of hearts.

Does a check not show weakness, which would intice villan to bet 60 anyway on a possible A10anysuit, AQanysuit or AKhearts. (Would villan call a pre-flop raise of 14 with A10 when he is on the button?).

I think you could be losing too, if anything to a set but how can you tell?

Does this mean everytime we raise pot preflop with big overpair say AA or KK and raise pot on suitable flop (our cards are top pair like one described above), and someone flat calls your rasie you are losing?

Does this mean that we are only ever going to win preflop raise with AA or KK because if we get flat called on a pot bet on flop we are losing? (Surely in case above we had to bet turn to see or did we?)

I'm only asking these questions, because I would like to get better at playing these hands. Heads or Harps?