Rifle jam on Range

RyderCup

Could anyone tell me - if you're on a range, your rifle (.22) fails to fire, and the round is stuck in the breech - what should you do?

Mech1

Keep rifle pointed up-range!!!

RyderCup

OK, thanks I know that but what then.....

Mech1

Bolt action or semi?

RyderCup

Semi.

Mech1

After letting a little time go bye, Drop mag, recock and try firing again.

RyderCup

Did exactly that - no cigar.

Then what. Note; I am not a gunsmith.

hillybilly

Mech1 wrote:

After letting a little time go bye, Drop mag, recock and try firing again.

Did you bring it to the range officer's attention??


You do not try a manouvre like that unless the range officer is breathing down your neck.

RyderCup

A range officer, in Courtlough, whats that?

Umiq88

.22 semi's jam the whole time i dont know range "manners" or whats required but why not just open it (after waiting the cautionary 30 secs :rolleyes: ) and then unjam it by however and continue on.

Some people will probably frown on this and tell you to bring it to a quailified person or some such but its common sense really. To avoid jamming on a semi clean vigorously!

maglite

just out of curiosity what will a round that goes off on an uncontroled inviroment do(not in gun)

what sort of force is there

RyderCup

psittacosis wrote:

.22 semi's jam the whole time i dont know range "manners" or whats required but why not just open it (after waiting the cautionary 30 secs :rolleyes: ) and then unjam it by however and continue on.

Some people will probably frown on this and tell you to bring it to a quailified person or some such but its common sense really. To avoid jamming on a semi clean vigorously!

I'm only after getting my rifle back from my gunsmith. It got a full strip and cleaning and I clean it every time I shoot with it. Today before I started shooting I applied a very light spray of gun oil to it.

When you say "open it" how do you mean. Its not a shotgun - you cant break it. If it was a bolt action it might be simpler to open but not a semi.

RyderCup

Maglite, I believe that a round that goes off when it is in a completely uncontrolled environment will do very little.

This wasn't the case here though as the slide had damaged the shell and it was stuck in the breech so I reckon if it had gone off the shell would have been forced back against the breech block with some velocity.

Sparks

Generally the rule is Call the Range Officer.

What the RO usually does is to wait for ten seconds or so; recock the mechanism and try firing again; if that doesn't work, try removing the round from the breech; if the round is stuck, insert a cleaning rod down the barrel to about an inch from the round, then (with the breech open, the fingers well clear and the rifle held vertically) drop it the last inch onto the round. Mind you, in ten years ROing for DURC, I never saw a case get so bad that it got to the cleaning rod stage, not with .22s anyway. 99% of the time, recocking and firing works.

First rule though - call the Range Officer.

Sparks

maglite wrote:

just out of curiosity what will a round that goes off on an uncontroled inviroment do(not in gun)
what sort of force is there

Less than you'd imagine, though personally I wouldn't care to be standing around anyway (but I worry a lot ). Without the confinement of the chamber and barrel, the bullet doesn't get much in the way of acceleration.

Clare gunner

a 22 going off outside a gun will make an impressive SNAP! not much else.There was an article in G&A years ago about "cookoffs" with 22 ammo.
A guy managed to detonate one in his down jacket ,by putting accidently a battery pack on top of a hidden and forgotten round in his pocket.All it did was go off and rip a hole in his chest pocket and rip into the fleece..
It needs a contained chamber to cause damage.So I would say if it is jammed in the barrel of a semi 22.Pick it out with a screw driver without hitting too much on the rim,and the gun unloaded and pointed down range,while wearing eye protection.Get the dud round into some oil /brake fluid,to inert it,or whatever the policy is on the range for handling dud rounds.

RyderCup

Sparks wrote:

Generally the rule is Call the Range Officer.

What the RO usually does is to wait for ten seconds or so; recock the mechanism and try firing again; if that doesn't work, try removing the round from the breech; if the round is stuck, insert a cleaning rod down the barrel to about an inch from the round, then (with the breech open, the fingers well clear and the rifle held vertically) drop it the last inch onto the round. Mind you, in ten years ROing for DURC, I never saw a case get so bad that it got to the cleaning rod stage, not with .22s anyway. 99% of the time, recocking and firing works.

First rule though - call the Range Officer.

I'm glad you clarified that Sparks. I have been shooting for quite a few years now and whether your in the FCA or on a rifle or pistol range I have always been told to keep the gun pointed down the range and raise your free hand to alert the range officer that you have a problem.

I was in Courtlough Shooting grounds today. At about 6.02pm with 3 rounds left to fire, I got the jam which I am referring to above. There was nobody else on the rifle range. I recocked and tried again and two more times but to no avail so I let it settle for about 3 minutes. I took the mobile out of my shooting bag and phoned the Clubhouse. I told the staff member that I was on the rifle range and had a round stuck in the breech which hadn't gone off and the reply I got was as follows:

Staff member: Sighs.....Jaysus...... have you not got something sharp to poke it out with like a key or something.

Me: I have a penknife - is it safe to do that.

Staff member: Yeah and get down here soon as you can we were meant to close at 6.


Fantastic.

Umiq88

yeah sorry meant recock and pry it out

if your getting alot of jams it could be if your using subsonic ammo which mightnt have enough power to push the bolt back otherwise try different ammo with a 22 you've plenty of stuff to test and play around with

Dvs

Mech1 wrote:

Keep rifle pointed up-range!!!

I think you mean Downrange!

Dvs.

rrpc

When you get a misfire in a .22, it usually means that there is no primer in the spot that the firing pin struck. This happens because the primer did not go completely around the rim when the round was manufactured. In some rare cases there is no primer at all.

With a bolt action rifle, lifting the bolt and withdrawing the round partially, then closing the bolt again usually turns the round in the breech so that the firing pin wil strike the rim in a different position where presumably there is some primer.

With semis, the problem is that the bolt/action does not withdraw the round, the recoil does that job, which leaves the problem of how to withdraw the dud. Sparks method with the cleaning rod will work, although it means you are working at the business end of the barrel (The thoughts of your cleaning rod coming back out at speed followed by an angry piece of lead would give me pause). You could also try to turn the round in the breech with a screwdriver or penknife, assuming that it is not too tight in the breech. There should be no real danger in this, as it takes quite an impact to fire the round, and it is still in the breech: though you should wear eye protection.

This is one of the reasons that I dislike semis, as misfires can happen quite regularly due to insufficient recoil from some rounds; leaving you with exactly the problem RyderCup describes.

Sparks

Sparks method with the cleaning rod will work, although it means you are working at the business end of the barrel (The thoughts of your cleaning rod coming back out at speed followed by an angry piece of lead would give me pause).

You and me both, but there's logic to it. There's only so much energy in a .22 cartridge, and with the breech opened, most of that won't go down the barrel; and even then the cleaning rod weighs so much more than the bullet that I wouldn't expect it to come back like a mortar round if the cartridge somehow goes off in the process. As well, you're holding the rod from the side rather than being silly enough to let your hand get in the line of the barrel.

The notion of using a screwdriver or penknife on the rim of a dodgy rimfire cartridge (you're right, properly made ones would survive this fairly easily) would worry me quite a bit more, to be honest, because you, your fingers and your face will all be much closer to the cartridge. Frankly, given all the fullbore world's horror stories of lost fingers and worse, this is one of those times when I think paranoia is a healthy response!

Umiq88

surely you can just pull back the bolt in a semi with the handle and then dislodge the round

Sparks

Usually psitta; but then how do you best (ie, what's the safest way) dislodge the round?

rrpc

psittacosis wrote:

surely you can just pull back the bolt in a semi with the handle and then dislodge the round

No, you can't, the bolt (action) in a semi doesn't withdraw the empty case as in a bolt action, it's the recoil that both ejects the case and reciprocates the action.

That's why I don't like them.

As for Sparks suggestion that you can set a round off with a screwdriver or a penknife, have you ever tried? The bolt ejection mechanism has a much firmer hold on the case than you could ever have with said tools.

oldzed

of course you can cycle the action on a semi automatic and extract the round, the 10/22 has a single extractor claw on the right hand side of the bolt which pulls the case back and it ejects to the right after the case hits the extractor post,occasionally you will get a failure to extract on a 1022 usually when they are dirty and this can usually be remedied by simply re racking the slide , if its still stuck lever it out with a knife or rod it out . a properly cleaned 1022 is no more likely to fail to eject than a bolt action rifle, I dont get failures in my 1022 untill 600/700 rounds have gone through it, with some custom barrels you cannot get a standard extractor to withdraw an unfired round ( its no big deal just fire the round ) but if you replace the extractor and spring with a titanium one from the like of volquartsen you will hardly ever see an extraction problem. semis are not unreliable people just dont clean them right and that has lead to an unwarranted reputation.

long live the 1022


zed:)

Vegeta

rrpc wrote:

No, you can't, the bolt (action) in a semi doesn't withdraw the empty case as in a bolt action, it's the recoil that both ejects the case and reciprocates the action.
.

If what you're asying is true (and i don't think it is) how do you extract a round that is put in the barrel but not fired?????

RyderCup

oldzed wrote:

semis are not unreliable people just dont clean them right and that has lead to an unwarranted reputation.

Ahem, ahem...

RyderCup wrote:

I'm only after getting my rifle back from my gunsmith. It got a full strip and cleaning and I clean it every time I shoot with it. Today before I started shooting I applied a very light spray of gun oil to it.

My semi does not eject when you re-cock and I'd be surprised if many do seeing as the recoil takes care of ejection. I also happened to have a penknife with me which had around 7 different blades and I still couldn't get it out. There's only so much poking that a sane person will do at a bullet that has already been struck 3 times, unless they want their head examined or blown off (ok ok I know it was only a .22 but I'm a bit of a dramatic).

In the end I did the cleaning rod thing on it (nervously). Had I not had the cleaning kit with me, I would still be there as the gentleman who answered the phone in the clubhouse had no intention of helping out.

My point, believe it or not, was that I think it stinks to high heaven to be told to sort it out yourself when those very committed people in Courtlough are happy to take your money.

I'm voting with my feet.

Dvs

RyderCup wrote:

In the end I did the cleaning rod thing on it (nervously). Had I not had the cleaning kit with me, I would still be there as the gentleman who answered the phone in the clubhouse had no intention of helping out.

My point, believe it or not, was that I think it stinks to high heaven to be told to sort it out yourself when those very committed people in Courtlough are happy to take your money.

I'm voting with my feet.

I understand what you are saying,
but I don't see your point, as I would be of the opinion,
that you should be able to sort out a problem such as this on your own.

What if you were a hunter, out and about ?
Nobody else would be there to sort it out for you...........

On this occasion you did sort it out yourself,
and learned something!
you should take some pride in that,
not feel, as you seem to be saying,
short changed by the people at courtlough,
for not doing it for you.

Some might say it was a safety issue,
that needed to be dealt with by an official,
far to much delegating of safety issues take place,
Range safety in relation to you and your firearm,
should rest, first and foremost with you.

Just my 2 cents €uro,
Dvs.

civdef

as I would be of the opinion,
that you should be able to sort out a problem such as this on your own.

Damn straight. A safe shooter shouldn't need assistance to clear a simple jam.

Sparks

Dvs wrote:

Some might say it was a safety issue,
that needed to be dealt with by an official,
far to much delegating of safety issues take place,
Range safety in relation to you and your firearm,
should rest, first and foremost with you.

Without disagreeing with the last two stanzas there DvS, I have to say that saying that "far to much delegating of safety issues take place" (sic) is really only something you could say if (s)he knew what they were doing in the first place, in which case odds are this thread wouldn't have been started at all.

Sparks

civdef wrote:

Damn straight. A safe shooter shouldn't need assistance to clear a simple jam.

Have to disagree with you there, because someone can be safe to shoot in a particular environment but not trained in every detail of how to handle their firearm. For example, in DURC we get students coming in for a half-hour a week who've never used a rifle before. We could insist on training them for weeks but we'd lose a good two-thirds or more of our members. Instead, we train them on the basics and leave them shoot with an RO monitoring them. So on the first day, they don't load, they aim off rests, and the RO takes care of everything else. Over the next few weeks, they get shown how to use the sling, to aim, to load, to carry the rifle, and so on - one thing at a time. So by the end of the few weeks, they're fairly well trained to do the things you do for 999 shots out of 1000. For that 1 in 1000 shot, they're trained to call the Range Officer to fix the problem.

That's perfectly safe - but it's not fully trained. We don't have enough range time to run them through everything. Those who stay about for more than a few weeks (and if you think your range has a problem with tyre-kickers, you should work in a college range for a while to disabuse you of that notion) get taught more, and within a year or two the ones who take it in wind up knowing enough that there's little they can't handle on their own. The point is, though, that they're perfecly safe all through that time, because they're trained to call the RO the moment something deviates from normal. Frankly, it's the ones who think they know what they're doing who worry us.

rrpc

Vegeta wrote:

If what you're asying is true (and i don't think it is) how do you extract a round that is put in the barrel but not fired?????

That's the point of this thread Vegeta. Oldzed's 1022 apart, most semis I've come across (and owned, until I decided they were not the safest or most accurate firearm around) did not have any extractor on the action capable of dislodging a misfire.

The last one I owned (a unique), had a nasty habit (with some rounds) of not reciprocating back far enough to recock the firing pin, and would insert a round in the chamber withour firing it. If you hadn't been counting shots, you would have been led to believe that the mag was empty.

If the mag wasn't empty, you could recock and fire sending another round into the back of the one in the breech causing a jam because the action did not eject the round in the breech. If the mag was indeed empty (and you checked this by pulling back the action) you were then holding a loaded cocked firearm without knowing it.

And yes you should also check the breech. I'm just pointing out that an inexperienced shooter could easily make this mistake, and in my view that made the firearm unsafe and I got rid of it.

btw, my preferred method of ejecting a stuck round was with a small screwdriver. The breech allowed for this, but I can see how some may be harder to reach in this way.

Dvs

Sparks wrote:

Without disagreeing with the last two stanzas there DvS, I have to say that saying that "far to much delegating of safety issues take place" (sic) is really only something you could say if (s)he knew what they were doing in the first place, in which case odds are this thread wouldn't have been started at all.

Hello Sparks,
I was not very clear about what i meant by this,
but it was late last night,
I was not referring to Courtlough,
I have only been there once,
about five years ago shooting clays.

Just the general approach taken,
by many people in target shooting sports,
that safety is the responsibility of the Range officer,
and they switch of their own personal responsibility,
and attempt to excuse lapses and brain farts on,
the Range officer didnt tell me, or make that clear.

In relation to the OP,
they did what any shooter should when faced with such a problem,
figured out the safest way to resolve it and did so,
shooting and life in general,
throws up things you have never had to deal with before,
a common sense approach usually works in both.

Even I don't claim to know everything!









I know hard to believe but true:D

Dvs.

Vegeta

Ok i don't think you get me.

I am not talking about a misfire or a jam

I put one round in the gun, it goes into the breech/barrel.

I do not fire this round.

I now want to remove the round.

How would you do this??

rrpc

civdef wrote:

Damn straight. A safe shooter shouldn't need assistance to clear a simple jam.

Sometimes it's not that simple Civdef. As I pointed out in my previous post, a change in ammo could result in a misfire where none were encountered previously. If you didn't have the right tools with you, you would need assistance and all the time you are holding a firearm in an unsafe condition.

Regardless of whether it's a club or a commercial range, there should always be a RO on hand to make sure that nobody does anything stupid, and to provide assistance should anything go wrong.

jaycee

Vegeta wrote:

Ok i don't think you get me.

I am not talking about a misfire or a jam
I put one round in the gun, it goes into the breech/barrel.
I do not fire this round.
I now want to remove the round.

How would you do this??

On a bolt action rifle ...
Lift the bolt handle and open the bolt ..this will eject the round.
On a 10-22 ..
Pull back on the cocking handle .

Others may vary

Sparks

Ah, with you now DvS. And yes, I'd have to agree in general (though in specific cases, like in DURC - or other ranges that take in newbies with no experience - with new shooters, I'd say the RO not only has far more responsibility but needs to have it).

rrpc

Vegeta wrote:

Ok i don't think you get me.

I am not talking about a misfire or a jam

I put one round in the gun, it goes into the breech/barrel.

I do not fire this round.

I now want to remove the round.

How would you do this??

That's not how semis work Vegeta. You insert mag, pull back the action by means of a cocking handle on the side (it's like a bolt with a stubby handle that's spring-loaded). The action stays back until the trigger is pulled whence it delivers the round into the breech and fires it. The recoil then reciprocates the bolt which goes through the same manoeuver again, recocking itself for the next trigger pull.

Vegeta

rrpc wrote:

That's not how semis work Vegeta. You insert mag, pull back the action by means of a cocking handle on the side (it's like a bolt with a stubby handle that's spring-loaded). The action stays back until the trigger is pulled whence it delivers the round into the breech and fires it. The recoil then reciprocates the bolt which goes through the same manoeuver again, recocking itself for the next trigger pull.

I find that very odd indeed.

Obviously not all semi-autos work like that though. Especially not shotguns.

There must be some delay between pulling the trigger and the round firing if you have to wait for the action to move forward.

rrpc

Vegeta wrote:

I find that very odd indeed.

Obviously not all semi-autos work like that though. Especially not shotguns.

Nor pistiols, but in the case of the pistol, you have to reciprocate the entire body, which extends past the back of the gun when it does. Not a very safe thing to have happen on a rifle when your head is right behind the bolt. Shotguns have a different system, but this requires the action to be well forward of the normal position of a rifle breech which would have the effect of shortening the effective barrel length or making it too long for practical purposes.

The system in use in semi auto rifles is also used in a lot of full auto firearms. It's very simple, and effective. Obviously in a full auto, the bolt just continues to reciprocate as long as you hold the trigger.

There must be some delay between pulling the trigger and the round firing if you have to wait for the action to move forward.

Yes, there is a delay, but you get used to it. It's a tradeoff between that delay and the speed of a reload.

Rovi

rrpc wrote:

That's not how semis work Vegeta. You insert mag, pull back the action by means of a cocking handle on the side (it's like a bolt with a stubby handle that's spring-loaded). The action stays back until the trigger is pulled whence it delivers the round into the breech and fires it.

I may be incorrect, but this sounds to me like a gun that 'fires from an open bolt'. I was always under the impression that this is much more a feature of sub-machine guns than 'civilian' semi-automatics.
Some info- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_bolt

Of the three semi-automatics currently in my possession (Walther G22, .22lr; Beratta 302, 12g; CZ-75 TS, 9mm), all fire from a closed bolt/action, and they all have extractors.
Every one of them will load/eject dummy and live rounds for as long as I care to manually cycle the action.
I don't know of any conventional semi-automatics that fire from an open bolt, and/or don't have an extractor.

RyderCup, my apologies if I've missed it somewhere, but what make/model of gun are we talking about here?

.

CJhaughey

rrpc wrote:

That's not how semis work Vegeta. You insert mag, pull back the action by means of a cocking handle on the side (it's like a bolt with a stubby handle that's spring-loaded). The action stays back until the trigger is pulled whence it delivers the round into the breech and fires it. The recoil then reciprocates the bolt which goes through the same manoeuver again, recocking itself for the next trigger pull.

This is firing from an open bolt, not a closed bolt like most S/A shotguns and rifles.
A closed bolt gas operated semi auto functions like this:
When you pull the bolt back it cocks the firing pin and continues back down the receiver collecting the next cartridge on its way, it then pushes the cartridge home and in the process the extractor claw slips over the rim of the case.
There is also a locking mechanism that engages the top of the receiver to prevent the bolt blowing back under recoil and until the chamber pressure has dropped to a safe level.
When the trigger is pulled the gas operates the piston in the chamber and pushes the bolt backwards as the bolt cycles rearward the case is pulled back from the chamber and it usually strikes an ejection post in the rear of the receiver which pushes the case out the ejection port.

Vegeta

CJhaughey wrote:

This is firing from an open bolt, not a closed bolt like most S/A shotguns and rifles.
A closed bolt gas operated semi auto functions like this:
When you pull the bolt back it cocks the firing pin and continues back down the receiver collecting the next cartridge on its way, it then pushes the cartridge home and in the process the extractor claw slips over the rim of the case.
There is also a locking mechanism that engages the top of the receiver to prevent the bolt blowing back under recoil and until the chamber pressure has dropped to a safe level.
When the trigger is pulled the gas operates the piston in the chamber and pushes the bolt backwards as the bolt cycles rearward the case is pulled back from the chamber and it usually strikes an ejection post in the rear of the receiver which pushes the case out the ejection port.

I have only ever experienced closed bolt firearms

CJhaughey

Vegeta wrote:

I have only ever experienced closed bolt firearms

Same as that, submachine guns were never really good for ducks or deer IMHO:D

oldzed

I do believe rrpc has never owned or shot a 1022 as if he had he would not have written that rubbish on how to operate them , there was never a 1022 made that fired off an open bolt and very few guns of any kind now fire off an open bolt even sub machine guns , an open bolt will have a very adverse affect on acuracy and just is not used anymore , old sub guns like the gustav and the uzi used this system but all modern sub guns including the mp5 all fire off a closed bolt, a properly set up 1022 can equal any factory sporter rifle at 50m, I can shoot .5 minute of angle at 50 m with both my 1710 hb and 1022 (macmillan fibreglass stock , volquartsen internals and brown precision barrell) my 1022 is an extremely safe and accurate rifle , And this talk of leaving rounds in the chamber is just crap, if it jams clear it ( safely of course), christ its no big deal, god help you if you ever get a squib load in a centrefire rifle

Sparks

oldzed wrote:

there was never a 1022 made that fired off an open bolt

There is however a conversion for the 10/22 that will convert it to an open bolt fully automatic model.

a properly set up 1022 can equal any factory sporter rifle at 50m

Yeeees.... but can a properly set up 10/22 equal a properly set up sporter rifle or a properly set up target rifle?
Heck, more of interest to your average shooter on a limited budget, can a stock factory 10/22 equal a stock factory sporter or target rifle?

I can shoot .5 minute of angle at 50 m with ... my 1022 (macmillan fibreglass stock , volquartsen internals and brown precision barrell)

Hmmm. Nice rifle, but if you've replaced the stock, the barrel and the internals, is it really the same rifle you bought from the factory?

if it jams clear it ( safely of course), christ its no big deal, god help you if you ever get a squib load in a centrefire rifle

Yes, it's not a big deal. If you know what you're doing. Which is rather the point of this thread, no?

civdef

If a person does not know how to handle a misfire, they are not competent shooters, and should be treated as such, ie only shooting under very close individual supervision and instruction. This is not necessarily how clubs should need to treat all their members.

RRPC's understanding of how a semi works does indeed seem deficient re open/closed bolts.

Some of the match barrel semis - like aftermarket 10/22 ones, have tight chambers that make extraction of an unfired round difficult. The answer is to either fit a stronger extractor, or carry a suitable tool for the job, like a penknife.

If I go shooting, I make it my business to carry a few tools, screwdrivers, allen keys etc, for any adjustments that prove necessary - it has made my life easier on many occasions.

Sparks

Agreed civ, but there's a distinction that must be made between competent and safe. Otherwise you're saying that every newbie is unsafe, and if they're unsafe, then the law says they can't have a firearms licence...

Sparks

Besides which, I've seen a number of "competent" shooters who've been around for years and know their firearms inside and out, and who still aren't "safe".

civdef

We're not talking about general safety here, it's a far more narrow topic of having a shooter who does not how to operate their firearm. A person who doesn't know how to work their gun should only be shooting in the context of close personal supervision & instruction in order to develop the necessary skills.

A competent person does not need that level of supervision.

This is the sort of thing I would like to see improved somehow. Maybe ranges should have a policy of checking shooters out more formally - like is currently the case on several ranges with pistol shooters - where anyone looking to shoot must pass a series of basic tests on safety.

You should not have a licence for a firearm if you cannot use it properly.

oldzed

so rrpc owned an open bolt 1022 machinegun ?? I doubt it
can a properly set up 1022 equal a properly set up up sporter , yes in my opinion
can a stock ruger 1022 equal a stock factory sporter such as a brno .22 - yes if you spend 15€ on it and change the sear and spring otherwise no as the stock trigger is a dog,
Can a 1022 equal a target rifle?if you mean an issf rifle and both are bolted to a table no, but mine has beaten target rifles in benchrest competitions (a lot depends on the wind and the shooter of course)and while you can shoot bench, gallery,minirifle and sils with a 1022 you would be doing well to shoot a 1500 competitively with your issf target rifle.
Is it the same rifle i bought, yes I bought it this way.
as to the point of the thread all im doing is defending the reputation of the 1022 as the great little gun it is ,
and yes people should know what they are doing or have access to someone who does ,no argument there