DTT Trials ending 31st July: Don't buy now.

Charles Slane

With the upcoming Irish DTT tests on the horizon, I thought it might be useful to start a thread dealing solely with how to receive the broadcasts (rather than speculation about content). I wasn't sure about starting a new thread for this, but I think it may good to have a thread just focussing on what you need to do to pick up the tests when they start.

For the moment it's mostly questions (particularly from me because my knowledge of terrestrial is almost non-existant) that some of our clever posters may have the answers to.

We know that tests will be broadcast from Three Rock in Dublin and Clermont Carn in Co Louth, so will that pretty much cover all the north-east? How far south does Three Rock reach? Do we know yet what sort of power the tests will be?

I know that in the UK a lot of people had to have roof-top aerials erected when they had previously been able to pick up analogue without an outside aerial. How likely is that to happen in Dublin and it's surrounds? Will we see aerials reappearing all over the city?

For example, I live on the northside of Dublin but analogue reception using rabbit ears is petty bad (RTE1 and 2 just about watchable, TV3 and TG4 quite bad). Would I need an aerial to get digital? Should it be rooftop or loft? What type of aerial would be needed? I've seen aerials in Maplins saying "for digital TV". This obviously refers to UK digital, but will they be good for Irish digital too?

I don't have a great understanding of channels, groups and horizontal/vertical. Do we know yet what channels Irish digital will be on?

I've got a Hybrid AverTV PC receiver. Of course when I scan for DTT channels at the moment I get nothing. Is it likely that this receiver be able to pick up the Irish tests (given that there's an aerial connected that can receive the signal)? How about the UK freeview boxes? They're very cheap now. If you were to buy one the next time you were in the UK, would it be suitable for the Irish tests?

Sorry if the post is a bit rambling and lacking in knowledge, but I reckon there are a few people in the same boat as me - excited about Irish DTT, ignorant in the ways of terrestrial, but ready for a fast learning curve if it means we get to partake in the fun of picking up the tests.

Thanks for any answers.

watty

Loft aerials are poor. "rabbits ears" frequently perform no better than 6" wire hanging from aerial socket.

You are best to get a roof aerial, but of the correct groups.

Any specially purchased DTT receiver should be MPEG4 compatible (This is NOT the same as HDTV, though HDTV is usally MPEG4) as tests will be MPEG4 from time to time. MPEG4 allows twice as many ordinary channels and is now feasible. It was not when UK DTT started. They are limited to about 29 to 33 Chs, with MPEG4 we could have about 60, making a mix of FTA and Pay TV viable.

There is no such thing as a "digital" aerial or indeed a "digital" dish for Satellite. It is solely a question of having the right frequency (groups) and gain etc.

With Terrestrial, Cable and Satellite it is only the tuner/receiver that is different for analogue and digital.

Wait till September and there will be accurate information on recommended receiver.

I'm evaluating a receiver that can record on Hard Drive, play/record DVD and receive MPEG2/MPEG4 normal/HDTV satellite and Terrestrial. I will be ensuring it will be Irish DTT compatible.

Watch this space early september / late august


Be warned that this is a politically motivated trial. There is no clear plan as yet as to how any commercial service would be funded or who would roll it out etc when the trial would end

At present the best bet is Satellite except the four Irish channels are only Sky Sub on satellite.

Antenna

watty wrote:

a "digital" aerial

In the UK, aerials that have a Balun (Balanced-to-Unbalanced transformer) have been marketed at being "digital" aerials

Your average low cost 10 element UHF aerial has no Balun.
In theory a Balun will prevent interference picked up from electrical appliances etc all along the 'outside' of the length of coax cable from (at the aerial) then going down the 'inside' of the coax to the receiver (for want of a better description).

Digital reception is far worse affected by impulse interference from electrical appliances than analogue (picture freezing etc), so a Balun in the aerial is considered far more important for digital than for analogue.

But of course no such thing as a "Digital aerial". If its better (than a cheap aerial) for digital it will also be better for analogue.

I even recall 'Digital Ready' headphones being sold by a large electrical retailer once.

Charles Slane

Will the signal from Three Rock be on UHF? If so, would a wide-band UHF aerial be any use?

Antenna

Charles Slane wrote:

Will the signal from Three Rock be on UHF? If so, would a wide-band UHF aerial be any use?

Yes UHF, using a wideband aerial.

If the 4 analogue channels from there are coming in OK, it should be fine

Charles Slane

Thanks for the help guys.

I did some messing around in the attic with rabbits ears and a long coax (sounds more exciting than it is ...:D ), but the improvement in picture quality has me more or less convinced that a loft mount of a decent wide-band UHF would give me good results. Even with the rabbits ears (sorry Watty, I promise never to use them again) I got near perfect RTE1 and RTE2 and pretty good TV3 and TG4.

watty

Antenna wrote:

Yes UHF, using a wideband aerial.

If the 4 analogue channels from there are coming in OK, it should be fine

I thougth for moment you said Ch4 signals from Three Rock!

My RTE contact claims the Threerock is specifically for Irish DTT reception in Belfast of the trials. I expressed som skeptism, (Analog reception, 3Rock and DTT uses different aerials, also NTL cable and Sky basic both give RTE /TG4 in Belfast).

While it would make more sense for any of Galway / Cork/ Limerick /Carlow / Waterford / Kerry / Donegal than Dublin and Belfast for the trials they have gone for convenience.

mrdtv

watty wrote:

I thougth for moment you said Ch4 signals from Three Rock!

My RTE contact claims the Threerock is specifically for Irish DTT reception in Belfast of the trials. I expressed som skeptism, (Analog reception, 3Rock and DTT uses different aerials, also NTL cable and Sky basic both give RTE /TG4 in Belfast).

While it would make more sense for any of Galway / Cork/ Limerick /Carlow / Waterford / Kerry / Donegal than Dublin and Belfast for the trials they have gone for convenience.

It is extremely UNLIKELY that Three Rock DTT will be received in Belfast as Three Rock analogue can't and DTT is transmitted at a maximum ERP 7dB down on corresponding analogue allocations(cochannel with the current Divis DTT channels until 2012 when these are switched to the old UHF analogue allocations..) Also the results of RRC-06 mean that the power of Clermont Carn DTT is severely restricted northwards....

mrdtv

Irish Bazza

I currently live in Kilcullen, Co.Kildare, and I have a loft aerial, TV3 and TG4 is perfect, RTE 1 & 2 a few lines appears in the winter months. Will I be able to pick up Three Rock for the DTT trials in Kilcullen. Not sure where my current aerial reception is coming from, but the aerial is pointed towards Dublin.

Cheers

L1011

That'd likely be Kippure you're getting and no, you're highly unlikely to get Three Rock in Kilcullen. You could try, however..

watty

Draw a line from Three Rock to Kells. If you cross west of it then no Three Rock. Going out N7 you lose it before Rathcool.

Charles Slane

Well I got a wide-band aerial in Maplins, set it up in the attic, and am very happy with the results (after some messing around and tweaking and eventually turning it in the right direction of Three Rock). Pretty much perfect RTE1, RTE2, TV3 and TG4 on the PC tuner.

I'm surprised by the quality of the pictures (backing up what Watty and others on the forum have always said).

Hopefully when the DTT tests start I should be able to see them....

To paraphrase Russell Brand - "Nice to have DTT tests .... citing!!"

Round Cable

It was announced before Primetime that viewers on the east coast will experience dropouts over the next 2 weeks, so that mid August start date might not be too far off.

byte

I wonder if any RTE staff will be browsing these forums to see what reactions are?

watty

Charles Slane wrote:

I'm surprised by the quality of the pictures (backing up what Watty and others on the forum have always said).

Thanks,
(Polishes keyboard).

Should have my DTT/Dsat combined test receiver in Dundalk on Monday.

watty

Hmm... I could tell a few I suppose, but it NOT an RTE trial. They are not really much involved!

WicklowTiger

Anyone know if Three Rock can be picked up in Wicklow town?

byrnefm

Another question: which DTT receivers are the feature-rich in terms of value for money? There are lots of types out there (some even without SCART - they're the cheapest models, from what I can tell).

On a related note - do those USB DTT dongles usually receive radio as well as TV? I'm in two minds as to whether to get a Freeview box or just a USB dongle.

TCP/IP

Hi Lads,

I live in Tyrresltown in Dublin 15 I am right in thinking that I could get these signals, if so what would be the best way of recieving them on my computer using either a USB or PCI card. Also what sort of an aerial would I need if any.

many thanks
TCP/IP

DMC

WicklowTiger wrote:

Anyone know if Three Rock can be picked up in Wicklow town?

Not a hope, I'm afraid.

DMC

byrnefm wrote:

Another question: which DTT receivers are the feature-rich in terms of value for money? There are lots of types out there (some even without SCART - they're the cheapest models, from what I can tell).

A £50 box from the North would suffice, I have a 1 year old Matsui that was the basic model with 2 scarts. Works fine, not feature rich though.

byrnefm wrote:

On a related note - do those USB DTT dongles usually receive radio as well as TV? I'm in two minds as to whether to get a Freeview box or just a USB dongle.

I'd be certain they don't do DAB, if thats what you are implying (open to correction) The DTT test today is transmitting radio, if its a broadcast channel, a USB dongle will pick that up, the same as TV.

watty

Mountains in the way!

parasite

any word of future testing elsewhere like, say, Cork ?

DMC

Nope. Not for an age yet. Only Clermont Carn near Dundalk and Three Rock in Dublin are on this trial.

Mossy Monk

just Dublin and the north east for the moment

no mention of anywhere else

Charles Slane

TCP/IP wrote:

Hi Lads,

I live in Tyrresltown in Dublin 15 I am right in thinking that I could get these signals, if so what would be the best way of recieving them on my computer using either a USB or PCI card. Also what sort of an aerial would I need if any.

many thanks
TCP/IP

You should be able to receive the signals. I'm in Dublin 9 and am getting them perfectly with a loft aerial. I've tried rabbits ears (but they didn't suit me) and with some messing about was able to get the pictures back but it wasn't very stable. Check out what your analogue reception is like. If it's already good with rabbit ears you might get away with it.

The aerial in the attic was bought in Maplins. It's wideband UHF. You'd need a loft mount pole (again, they have them in Maplins) which just screws into one of the beams.

My tuner is an AverTV hybrid PC card (analogue and digital). It also picks up FM.

Cyclonius

Out of curiousity, how powerful are the transmitters; how far away could you be from them, and still be able to pick up the signal?

DMC

From Richie's site... http://www.irish-tv.com/3rock.asp

This shows Three Rock at 25kW ERP. So, if we believe the DTT tests from there are at 10kW, you can guess from there what is needed (less than half) .

Clermont Carn here... http://www.irish-tv.com/ccarn.asp No idea what power it will do DTT at, but analogue is a powerful beast at 300kW.

mjsmyth

anyone with more knowledge than me able to tell me if I can get the DTT trial in Naas? If so, would I need a new aerial or would a powered indoor aerial do?

Finally, where can I find a receiver?????

MJ

flogen

I had written a blog post before I wrote this, but according to a source in RTÉ the trial will launch officially on friday (keep an eye on www.dcmnr.ie)

Apparently RTÉ have yet to get spec sheets or even see the settop box; apparently they're holding off on stuff like interactive services (which may be a while away anyway) until they know what they're working with...

Rick_

So does this mean that on Friday all 3 transmitters being used for the trial will begin broadcasting DTT? Or are they just going to officially announce that Three Rock is now broadcasting DTT?

Paddy

L1011

What three transmitters? Only 3R and Clermont Carn are in this trial.

channelsurfer

are the trials to last 2 years? a bit long and then they will have to stop it... readvertise again for commercial tenders as per the proper long drawn out procedures to run a new system... they cant just simply allow rte to do it. if I am wrong then go ahead and correct me. after all this was only for a testing contract and not full commercial or even full operating systems. dont hold your breath.

Round Cable

mjsmyth wrote:

Finally, where can I find a receiver?????

No shops would have them in the republic, what would be the point? When most people would bring them back complaining they get no signal.

Internet or NI. Hard enough to find on the internet too, thanks to most not delivering electronics to the ROI, now including amazon.co.uk Check out DS for box reviews http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/terrestrial/reviews/ I'm heading up to Down in a few weeks, I'll pick up a box there.

mjsmyth

I'm in the UK next week, I think I can wait till then to pick one up

mj

lawhec

mjsmyth wrote:

anyone with more knowledge than me able to tell me if I can get the DTT trial in Naas? If so, would I need a new aerial or would a powered indoor aerial do?

Finally, where can I find a receiver?????

MJ

Looking at the maps I had generated, it's probably a borderline case...

Looks like other signals from Three Rock and Clermont Carn will be needed to be kept a lookout for.

Johnny_the_fox

Clermont Carn ?

would it then be possible to pick this up in the north?

DMC

mjsmyth wrote:

anyone with more knowledge than me able to tell me if I can get the DTT trial in Naas? If so, would I need a new aerial or would a powered indoor aerial do?

Finally, where can I find a receiver?????

Go handy, now. I would say that Naas is fringe, at best. Look at Northern Correspondents coverage maps. Also, look at other aerials in the area, and see if they are pointing towards Three Rock. Note that some, if not all aerials could be pointing towards Kippure, and Kippure doesn't have DTT (and not for some time either)

The one thing I don't want people doing is buying a £50 brick. This is one early adopter that guessed that this might work (like DAB before) Otherwise it was more expensive bricks! And the last thing I want to do here is get peoples hopes up.

Only if you are sure you can get analogue Three Rock and Clermont Carn, would you begin to realise that DTT reception is possible.

There is a thread here about set-ups especially for DTT (Charles Slane), maybe a kindly mod passing through could tidy this up, and have this thread for reception reports??

byte

I have decided to Sticky this thread for the time being.

Anyone with questions on how to pick up the trials as they run and the hardware needed, should post in here.

mjsmyth

Woolworths have a Sagem set top box for £24.99, not too bad if it does not work, plus I need to put up a TV aerial as the ears I use are give crap reception .
http://www.woolworths.co.uk/ww_p2/product/index.jhtml?pid=50475338

I have read a few reviews and they seem favourable enough.

MJ

byte

There will be a few electrical shops in the Republic that would sell DTT boxes also, of course these will be near areas that can receive Freeview from NI.

Though maybe a few shops down south also for people in Wexford etc getting Freeview from Wales etc?

BowWow

Have a friend whos bringing me home a spare box at the weekend. What sort of aerial should I use? Living in Sutton I can see Three Rock from house, no obstructions in way. Would a "low gain" aerial from B&Q or Maplins, mounted in attic do the job?
Also is the test running 24/7?
Rgds.

Charles Slane

BowWow wrote:

Have a friend whos bringing me home a spare box at the weekend. What sort of aerial should I use? Living in Sutton I can see Three Rock from house, no obstructions in way. Would a "low gain" aerial from B&Q or Maplins, mounted in attic do the job?
Also is the test running 24/7?
Rgds.

An aerial in the loft works fine for me here in Dublin 9 (not very far from Sutton really) and so far the tests have been running 24/7.

lawhec

Argos in the Irish Republic may stock DTT boxes that are designed for the UK Freeview service but which will at least be able to receive on paper the Irish MPEG-2 transmissions... can someone confirm this.

If not, you could of course if you're on a day trip up north to Newry, Essnikillen, Omagh, Derry, Belfast etc. you could pop in and buy one there.

I have one of these cheapos (link below) at £24.99 which is a decent box though its conectivity is rather limited (one scart, no modulator, no phono outputs etc.) but for anorack or bedroom use its fine.

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/5320754/Trail/C%24cip%3D43597.Sound%2Band%2Bvision%3EC%24cip%3D43664.Digital%2BTV%2Band%2Bfreeview.htm

Considering this is a trail and that reception is not cast iron certain, probably best to get a cheap box and wait for a luxury item when a full service is up and running.

Round Cable

Northern Correspondent wrote:

Argos in the Irish Republic may stock DTT boxes that are designed for the UK Freeview service but which will at least be able to receive on paper the Irish MPEG-2 transmissions... can someone confirm this.

Both the paper and online versions have no Freeview boxes (going by the last catalogue, I don't have the newest one) Might try a product number in their stock checker.

For a trial that might disappear, and whose standards may change, a €350 investment in a top of the range PVR should be avoided, for now.

L1011

B&Q stock uber-expensive Samsung DTT boxes. And have done for years now...

BowWow

Charles Slane wrote:

An aerial in the loft works fine for me here in Dublin 9 (not very far from Sutton really) and so far the tests have been running 24/7.

What sort of aerial?

muincav

I have a freeview box working perfect for the last 2 years but I cant seem to pick up the RTE digital trials even with a manual scan-I have a Philips dtr 1500-can anyone advise me how to get signal as I have all the english fta channel coming in?thanx...
by the way im in Cavan and have a good clear signal..

Charles Slane

BowWow wrote:

What sort of aerial?

An 18 element wideband UHF aerial - they have them in Maplins (other aerial providers are available).

BowWow

Check out Post 28, in this thread, for maps on where these tests "may" be received. I suspect you are too far from the two test transmitters.

(Reply to Post 48)

BowWow

Charles Slane wrote:

An 18 element wideband UHF aerial - they have them in Maplins (other aerial providers are available).

Thanks.