Ruling required

connie147

In the club tonite a big pot develloped with two players all in pre flop.(AA v QdKd. Flop Ad-10h-7h,turn 6d river 2d for the flush to bust the aces.Before the chips were awarded to the player, another player at the table noticed the dealer had burnt 4 cards by accident,the mistake happening before the turn card was dealt. What is the rule in this occurance?

P.S.--On examining the burn cards there were no diamonds amongst them so the runner runner beat could not have happened if the burn cards were right.

DeVore

The mistake should be corrected and the trips Ace takes the pot afaik.

There is no action, no possibility of alternative outcome because its all in preflop, at that point fate is locked into the deck and should proceed as close as possible to that.

I'm guessing you awarded the pot as the board stood because of the PS above...

I'm not stating this as poker canon law, I dont think I've heard of that specific situation before and if there was betting on the various streets I dont think you could undo it after the showdown but considering its all in preflop my understanding is that you would correct the error as it could not have affected anything and should have come out in favour of the AA..

DeV.

BrokenArrows

DeVore wrote:

The mistake should be corrected and the trips Ace takes the pot afaik.

There is no action, no possibility of alternative outcome because its all in preflop, at that point fate is locked into the deck and should proceed as close as possible to that.

I'm guessing you awarded the pot as the board stood because of the PS above...

I'm not stating this as poker canon law, I dont think I've heard of that specific situation before and if there was betting on the various streets I dont think you could undo it after the showdown but considering its all in preflop my understanding is that you would correct the error as it could not have affected anything and should have come out in favour of the AA..

DeV.

I would agree that in this case the AA should take the pot because of the all-in.

But if the turn and river was delt and there was betting on both then the board would have to stand and the flush would take it.

RoundTower

I think you should award the pot to the guy with the flush. Or possibly shuffle the burn cards, board and stub back together and redeal the board. Definitely the answer to this doesn't involve looking at the burn cards.

DeVore

The hand is completely retrieveable (from the explanation given), why shouldnt the outcome that SHOULD have happened, be reconstructed...

DeV.

RoundTower

no it's not - for example, perhaps the Ace should have been a burn card.

connie147

[I dont think you could undo it after the showdown but considering its all in preflop my understanding is that you would correct the error as it could not have affected anything and should have come out in favour of the AA..
QUOTE=DeVore]The mistake should be corrected and the trips Ace takes the pot afaik.

There is no action, no possibility of alternative outcome because its all in preflop, at that point fate is locked into the deck and should proceed as close as possible to that.

I'm guessing you awarded the pot as the board stood because of the PS above...

I'm not stating this as poker canon law, I dont think I've heard of that specific situation before and if there was betting on the various streets
DeV.[/QUOTE]

No Dev,I didnt award the pot to either.What we decided to do was shuffle the 4 burn cards and the flop and the turn and the river back into the deck and did a whole new flop,turn and river. Both players were happy with this decision but I still wasnt sure this was right, hence the post.

Still like to know is there an exact ruling covering this or is it down to house rules?

MrPillowTalk

I think it house rules in cases like this.

In this instance I would have to agree with Dev, if they are all in pre flop then the board is totally correctable.

RoundTower

No Dev,I didnt award the pot to either.What we decided to do was shuffle the 4 burn cards and the flop and the turn and the river back into the deck and did a whole new flop,turn and river. Both players were happy with this decision but I still wasnt sure this was right, hence the post.

Still like to know is there an exact ruling covering this or is it down to house rules?

Having thought about it more I think this is a good ruling. I am sure it is covered in Ciaffone's rules or Caro and Cooke's rules, use google to find them.

DeVore

Sorry, please clarify something for me Connie. Is it unclear which cards should have gone where? ie, is there ambiguity about which cards SHOULD have been the burn cards and which SHOULD be on the board?

If it can be corrected without ambiguity it should be. If it cant then reshuffling burn, turn and river is probably the right ruling but I was under the impression that the error was 100% correctable...?

DeV.

The_Chopper

connie147 wrote:

No Dev,I didnt award the pot to either.What we decided to do was shuffle the 4 burn cards and the flop and the turn and the river back into the deck and did a whole new flop,turn and river. Both players were happy with this decision but I still wasnt sure this was right, hence the post.

Still like to know is there an exact ruling covering this or is it down to house rules?

I saw this happen in a live professional tourny once. The dealer put out a flop without burning a card, both players and the TD agreed to reshuffle the deck and put out a new flop.

The only difference was that it wasn't all in preflop.

connie147

DeVore wrote:

Sorry, please clarify something for me Connie. Is it unclear which cards should have gone where? ie, is there ambiguity about which cards SHOULD have been the burn cards and which SHOULD be on the board?

If it can be corrected without ambiguity it should be. If it cant then reshuffling burn, turn and river is probably the right ruling but I was under the impression that the error was 100% correctable...?

DeV.

Hi Dev,
The four burn cards were all shoved in under the chips.Nobody was sure when the mistake happened although one player was pretty sure that the extra burn card was done after the flop.
No way was it correctable in being able to determine the exact turn and river.
Although both players were agreeing to split the pot,I didnt feel this would be the correct thing to do.

So we reshuffled everything except the discarded players fold cards and put out a whole new flop, turn and river.

Unbelievably,two diamonds came out again on the flop but no more came and the aces justifiably held up.Funny one though!!

MickL

if there unsure where the mistake occured the only fair outcome is to kill the flop turn and river shuflle all remaing cards including the muck and re-run it

5starpool

MickL wrote:

if there unsure where the mistake occured the only fair outcome is to kill the flop turn and river shuflle all remaing cards including the muck and re-run it

I definitely disagree with that Mick, the muck should not possibly appear on the board. Shuffle deck, burned cards and board cards aand redeal as was done sounds right to me.

DeVore

Yes, sorry I thought it was recoverable. In the case in point you have to proceed with a reshuffle of the burn cards, turn and river. (not the muck afaik).

Its also a good idea for the dealers to keep the various burn cards separate so that this sort of mistake can be noticed and reversed, its just one of those little things you notice good dealers doing.

DeV.

TheDuck32

You are unclear when the mistake happen so I would suggest that you take the 4 burn cards and the flop,turn and river, shuffle them and place them back on top of the deck and redeal the flop turn and river.
This will get you as close as possible to what the correct out come should have been.

nicryan

MickL wrote:

if there unsure where the mistake occured the only fair outcome is to kill the flop turn and river shuflle all remaing cards including the muck and re-run it

you can't re-shuffle the muck into it. you can only reshuffle whats left in the dealers hand, the cards that were exposed and the burn cards.


Nic