Dublin Bus Strike 31st Aug

connundrum

More disruption, although their reasons are valid IMO. We need the 100 more busses.

Link

Noelie

I was thinking the exact same thing, as long as they don't come out and say the want more money i'm with them.

Aidan1

Lets get this straight, they are so concerned about providing a service to the public that they are willing to cut the service for an evening, and leave people stranded.

Yup, working class heroes alright :rolleyes:

This is not about additional buses, its about route franchising and proper regulation for Dublin Bus.

markf909

This is a joke.
Do they want the new buses but with no customers?
This kind of action is what drives people away from public transit.

godtabh

They want more buses. Fair enough. They go on strike to get them. Stupid!

I think they are going this all the wrong ways

Stark

For once I'm on their side. They've exhausted all the options and the Government just doesn't give a ****. Promises, promises, promises but nothing delivered. I just hope Dublin Bus publicise this enough so that the customer backlash is against the government.

secret_squirrel

Good idea, bad execution.

A free fare day would have had the public more on their side, like they did some years back.

John R

kearnsr wrote:

They want more buses. Fair enough. They go on strike to get them. Stupid!

I think they are going this all the wrong ways

Is there a right way? The simple fact is that this government keeps promising improvements that it fails to deliver.

The same thing happens, a camera is stuck in the face of (current transport vote-whore) and they agree to do something. As soon as the media point their gaze elsewhere the status-quo of doing nothing resumes.

Yes, striking is mainly going to effect transport users who have enough crap to put up with already. However the threat of striking has at least gotten some public attention and a meeting with the DoT.

bryanw

Aawwh... the poor good samaritans want to help the public get more buses. This is rubbish. They really can't care that much can they? They are doing it in their own interests. These damn unions are crippling the public services in this country - it's even spilled into the private. We should probably take a leaf from America's book and lessen the presence of unions. The rest of the country pays tax to pay their wages, and yet they take it out on the public to help the public.

This is the result of collective responsibility. But thats just how things are, you can't be flexible and mould things to suit you - because that's what isn't fair.

Red Alert

I am fully behind the drivers. CIE management are taking a softly-softly approach on criticising the government.

I would agree with the strike more if it was based on a more anti-privatisation agenda. Because it hasn't worked in the UK - the current setup of private operators providing more 'specialised' services seems to work well.

Endymion

Workers where promised something by there employers, the employers failed to live up to their promise, it seems valid enough that the workers would strike.

ctrl-alt-delete

I agree with the reasoning behind it, maybe not the executiona s much but i cant think of a better way of doing it to be honest. Its obvious they need more buses - there have been cutbacks on a lot of services on the newly published timetables because of this.

As said above its a case of the goverment breaking promises again.

MiniD

I'm not sure if this is the right way to go about getting a result, as it is the people who rely on a bus service after 7pm who will suffer most.
However, as a passenger who travels on overcrowded buses daily, I agree the extra buses are needed right now.
If I'm right, the Dublin Bus fleet has only increased by 20 buses in the last 7 years. Consider this against the amount of gridlock placed on bus routes already stretched to meet timetables, and the fact that Dublin suburbs have sprawled out to neighbouring counties.

godtabh

John R wrote:

Is there a right way? The simple fact is that this government keeps promising improvements that it fails to deliver.

I would've suggested a no fare day (as has been suggested here all ready). Hurt the goverment not the fare paying public

Red Alert

CIE seem quite prepared to fool the public at the government's behest by showing glossy pictures of new AX and VT buses. They don't mention the fact that perfectly good vehicles are being scrapped (or more recently sold at knockdown prices) at just over half their service life, on a one in one out basis. With a London-transport-style interior refurb they'd all last 20 years on the go, and we'd have more scheckles in our pockets to buy the number and types of new buses needed to expand the fleet.

An efficient bus company would have an expansion and replacement bus policy based on needs, not PR and government interference or an assembly-line replacement. Once a bus (or group of buses) no longer meets standards, such as having too many unscheduled visits to the mechanic, it should be up for replacement. The type of vehicle should depend on the current needs of the routes the disposed bus served. Similarly in terms of fleet expansion, we should reflect what is needed - an expanding airport shuttle service might warrant 10 bendi's, however a country-run to Nass or somewhere would probably do better with 5 AX's with coach-fitted seats.

It's about time the rot was stopped, but I think the no-fares would have been a better option. Legally they'd have to say to CIE they were prepared to come in and drive but not operate the ticket machines, thereby putting the ball in CIE's court. CIE would then be seen as deciding whether (or not) we had a service that day.

John R

kearnsr wrote:

I would've suggested a no fare day (as has been suggested here all ready). Hurt the goverment not the fare paying public

Problem is that it wouldn't really hurt the government, just the bus company who would have to live with less revenue than before.

Threats of strikes in an election year is probably the only thing that would hurt them.

Yes, strikes are not fair on the public but the continued lack of investement is also not fair and it has a much larger effect than a one-off stoppage.

El Stuntman

workers are just that, workers. And bus drivers are no different.

the deal is that they work an honest days wage for a honest day's pay - leave strategy to their bosses

I don't see AIB or BoI bank officials going on strike because these two banks are shredding their bank network and this reducing their service available to the poor customer. Possibly because they work in an efficient sector and understand the rules of the game?

just another prime example of how the public sector unions in this country are embedded so far up their own fundaments that they can't see how much they are hurting the country

/rant over/let the flaming commence

Stark

El_Stuntman wrote:

workers are just that, workers. And bus drivers are no different.

the deal is that they work an honest days wage for a honest day's pay - leave strategy to their bosses

And who will have to take the flak on the front line when customers become angry over **** service? Not their bosses, that's for sure.

markpb

I'm never keen on strikes but in this case I'd have to support the drivers. Yes it will affect people badly, no it's not entirely about the extra buses:

The unions also want to be consulted on proposals for a new Dublin Transport Authority.

Martin Cullen and government in general don't care about bus commuters and will continue to promise very little (in comparison to luas, metro, etc) and deliver even less. Buses aren't a vote winner but a bus strike could definitely hurt FF in the next election.

El Stuntman

Stark wrote:

And who will have to take the flak on the front line when customers become angry over **** service? Not their bosses, that's for sure.

err....so what? THAT'S THEIR JOB

if you don't want to work in a customer-facing environment, then go work somewhere else - the last time I looked, we had virtually zero unemployment so there's plenty of other jobs out there for these poor put-upon bus drivers. I'm sure we could find some (non-unionised) Polish bus drivers to replace them - everyone's a winner!

again, example of bank staff - they get abuse from their customers all day regarding poor service but they don't use this as a reason to walk off the job and leave same customers with no service...sorry don't buy your argument at all. Anyway no semi-intelligent punter is going to blame the dude driving the bus for management cock-ups

Stark

El_Stuntman wrote:

Anyway no semi-intelligent punter is going to blame the dude driving the bus for management cock-ups

"Semi-intelligent". I know from working in a customer facing environment, that you will get plenty of customers who will display no signs of intelligence whatsoever.

A bank is a commercial self-run entity concerned with success. The more customers are dissatisfied, the more it hurts them in the pocket and the more the bank will be forced to act. Otherwise customers will vote with their feet and move to another bank.

Government TDs on the other hand will only be hurt once every seven years if a cockup happens in that election year that costs them votes. Dublin Bus management doesn't have the power to make that happen, but maybe by threatening strike action, the drivers can make it happen. They already have a meeting with Cullen who all of a sudden has decided to listen to concerns. The strike might not even go ahead tomorrow. The drivers could sit back and let the management/government **** up, but of course then it would be us, the public who would suffer in the long term.

El Stuntman

Stark wrote:

Government TDs on the other hand will only be hurt once every seven years if a cockup happens in that election year that costs them votes. Dublin Bus management doesn't have the power to make that happen, but maybe by threatening strike action, the drivers can make it happen. They already have a meeting with Cullen who all of a sudden has decided to listen to concerns. The strike might not even go ahead tomorrow. The drivers could sit back and let the management/government **** up, but of course then it would be us, the public who would suffer in the long term.

by the same logic the nurses should be out on strike to force change in the health service, teachers should be on the picket line over kids being schooled in prefabs, social workers should be out in relation to the state of social service provision etc etc

this is insane, do you seriously believe this?

Stark

And you're saying these groups have never striked before?

El Stuntman

Stark wrote:

And you're saying these groups have never striked before?

of course they have

it's usually due to naked self-interest though!! This is altogether madder and somewhat Monty Pythonesque...

I can see the dialogue down the Union HQ now:

Union monkey No 1: ah jaysis Anto, I miss the good aul' days. Haven't had a good strike for at least a year now. What's de world coming to at all?

Union monkey No 2: yeah, now that de government did our job for us and showered us with cash in dat benchmarking ting, what de feck can we strike about? We're de best paid bus drivers in de world, our socialist comrades in de great unwashed public mightn't take it too kindly if we went on strike again.

Uinion monkey No 1: yeah I know, I know. Pass the Cuban cigars dere willya? And fill up me champagne glass. No not the non-vintage ye gob****e!!
I miss the aul strikin' dough, all de same.

Union monkey No 2: Jaysis Mick! I have an idea!! Why don't we go on strike to force de governmint to give us some more buses?

Union monkey No 1: you mean we should greatly inconvenience our socialist comrades in order to further the aims of the Great Proletarian Revolution? Sure won't dey tank us for it in de end?

Union monkey No 2: Dat's exactly what I mean.

Union monkey No 1: Brilliant!! Pass de caviar dere

Stark

Normally I'm right there ranting about ****ing unions and their "Let's strike because they moved the jacks and we want extra money for our inconvenience even though we've less of a walk now" attitude.

I just think the strike is justified in this case.

El Stuntman

Stark wrote:

edited to what it should have been

I just think the customers are justified in voting out this inept government

this proposed strike is not justifiable by any manner of means

they should shut up and do their well-paid,secure, government-pensioned jobs

the people who should be up in arms are the voters and we get to have our say next year

this is just yet another case of an irrelevant union trying to grab some sort of role for themselves in a post-union world

Flukey

The strike is off. Martin Cullen has promised 100 buses for Dublin Bus, 160 for Bus Éireann and consultation on the propose Dublin Transport Authority.

El Stuntman

Flukey wrote:

The strike is off. Martin Cullen has promised consultation on the propose Dublin Transport Authority.

Jesus

why the hell should the unions be consulted? that should sink the project nicely...

As I said, they're just trying to create some semblence of relevance and Cullen has fallen for it (not our brightest minister it has to be said)

spareman

Do teacher's and nurse's have to turn people away because it is physically impossible to fit more people into schools or hospitals?
thats whats happening on peak time services all over the city, Ive seen animals transported in better conditions, and typical Irish public don't seem to care, just blame the unions and drivers for striking.

El Stuntman

spareman wrote:

Do teacher's and nurse's have to turn people away because it is physically impossible to fit more people into schools or hospitals?
thats whats happening on peak time services all over the city, Ive seen animals transported in better conditions, and typical Irish public don't seem to care, just blame the unions and drivers for striking.

.

there you go
(it's the point you're missing)

They have no right to threaten strike action over this and it's ludicrous that people such as you are defending it, implicitly or otherwise.

spareman

El Stuntman wrote:

.

there you go
(it's the point you're missing)

They have no right to threaten strike action over this and it's ludicrous that people such as you are defending it, implicitly or otherwise.

Your right it shouldn't be left to us to push for extra buses, the 500,000 passengers we carry everyday should push for them.

El Stuntman

spareman wrote:

Your right it shouldn't be left to us to push for extra buses, the 500,000 passengers we carry everyday should push for them.

correct

just do your job and stop threatening to inconvenience your 500,000 passengers over a spurious issue (for striking)

the 500,000 will get their chance at the polls - it's called democracy. A self-appointed interest group crippling the capital's transport infrastructure is not

are you a bus driver by the way?

Flukey

As the majority of threads at any time in this forum are evidence of, there are a lot problems in our public transport. Those within the system, who often know better how bad things are, should be able to highlight it, even to the point of taking strike action. It may inconvenience people even further, but if it can get things done, then it can help. The threat of strike this time did put pressure on the government. As no strike is now taking place and commitments have been given - not that we can believe the government will deliver - it has been a potentially positive development, and no inconvenience has occurred for the public. A call for a strike doesn't always result in one, and can have benefits as a bit of leverage, so the right to strike should be there.

El Stuntman

edited

Flukey wrote:

As the majority of threads at any time in this forum are evidence of, there are a lot problems in our public transport. Those within the system (especially the public sector unions), who often know better how bad things are (because they are a major cause of the problems).

spareman

El Stuntman wrote:

correct

just do your job and stop threatening to inconvenience your 500,000 passengers

As far as Im concerned they are already inconvenienced by having to travel on overcrowded buses. and a well advertised strike outside peak traveling times would not do too much damage to the traveling public. If we didn't care at all we would strike for 24 hours.

are you a bus driver by the way?

what do you think? (see conflict of interest tread if still unsure)

John R

El Stuntman wrote:

correct

just do your job and stop threatening to inconvenience your 500,000 passengers over a spurious issue (for striking)

the 500,000 will get their chance at the polls - it's called democracy. A self-appointed interest group crippling the capital's transport infrastructure is not

are you a bus driver by the way?

It is NOT a spurious issue in any way. The inaction of the current government has caused more inconvenience for passengers than a month of strikes would do.

Yes, AFAIK he is a driver and he has every right to actively push for improvements in the business he is involved in.

the fact is that the people actually providing transport services have much more useful input into how the services should be provided than the office-dwellers who dictate policy on issues it is often all to clear they are ignorant of.

El Stuntman

well I'm sure the masses of the commuting public think you are a fine bunch of outstanding fellows for your principled stand

no doubt they would have said the same thing if you had forced them to walk home tomorrow night?

nothing personal but public sector unions are stuck in a serious time warp in this country (i.e. the 1970s - remember them?). The world has moved on people...move with it or face irrelevance.

El Stuntman

John R wrote:

It is NOT a spurious issue in any way. The inaction of the current government has caused more inconvenience for passengers than a month of strikes would do.

Yes, AFAIK he is a driver and he has every right to actively push for improvements in the business he is involved in.

the fact is that the people actually providing transport services have much more useful input into how the services should be provided than the office-dwellers who dictate policy on issues it is often all to clear they are ignorant of.

John R,

I fear you may have misinterpreted me:

the issue of extra buses is not spurious at all in terms of public transport provision and it's an urgent one for Cullen and Dublin Bus management to sort out. But...AFAIK, it's not part of a bus driver's remit to plan business strategy. They should not be getting involved - period.
Delusions of importance/relevance just make the union involved look silly

You would never see this in a private sector firm (hmmm, I work for AIB but think I'll threaten strike action becuase I don't agree with their expansion into the Polish market...err, yes there's the door Son. Make sure it doesn't hit you in the arse on the way out).

Flukey

El Stuntaman, unions can be part of the problem, but often the people on the ground are better placed than those in management to judge things. The managers aren't the ones dealing with patients on the wards and in the A & E all day, or driving the buses and seeing firsthand the problems people have. They can't make the critical decisions, even though when they do come, they may sometimes object and slow down the process. Often when they do, though not always, it is for valid reasons and based on firsthand experience, that a lot of management don't have.

A lot of the problems in the public service are down to how it is managed, often by people with little experience of being in the frontline. A lot of the blame gets passed down the line to the people working there, but the problems and hold ups aren't always down to them. Often they will refuse to implement a deal on selfish needs, but often it is because what is proposed is not the best solution.

In health and many other services, every time the problem is mentioned to a minister they immediately point out to how much money is being putting in. The health service is the one that we most often hear that. The goverment has massively increased funding, true, but the improvements haven't improved in proportion. You could probably halve the funding and double the quality of service, if it was all managed properly. All parties, from ministers, executives, managers right down to the people in the frontline have their part in improving things. Coming back to where we started from, not all the difficulties can be layed at the feet of the staff, and often their objections that are blocking things are for good reasons, not just pay etc.

spareman

1970s yeah I remember them, thats when I was born!! Im the new breed of bus driver, trying to get the best deal for drivers and the traveling public, obviously you have some outstanding issues with unions but this situation has nothing to do with the unions, its the drivers forcing the unions to get there finger out and do something about the ridiculas situation on our buses.

El Stuntman

spareman wrote:

1970s yeah I remember them, thats when I was born!! Im the new breed of bus driver, trying to get the best deal for drivers and the traveling public, obviously you have some outstanding issues with unions but this situation has nothing to do with the unions, its the drivers forcing the unions to get there finger out and do something about the ridiculas situation on our buses.

why don't you, the forward-thinking bus driver who's as concerned with his customer's welfare as his own, go straight to your DB management with your ideas for improving service delivery?

surely they would applaud your initiative and you could get earmarked as a bright young thing? why get the unions involved at all??

do you honestly not see how weird union strike threat might seem to a private sector worker? (such as me)

spareman

El Stuntman wrote:

John R,

(hmmm, I work for AIB but think I'll threaten strike action becuase I don't agree with their expansion into the Polish market...err, yes there's the door Son. Make sure it doesn't hit you in the arse on the way out).

Im not sure if you work in a bank but if you do imagine this, your bank is so busy that you cant fit more people into the branch, Im taking people literally crammed into the bank, bearly enough space to reach up and scratch there nose.
What would you do?
Tell the boss upstairs whats happening, (who has no idea because he is never in the bank)
or continue to work on and do your best to ignore the overcrowding problem?
Are you starting to see the bigger pictuir yet?
union's are just messengers between drivers and management.

El Stuntman

spareman wrote:

Im not sure if you work in a bank but if you do imagine this, your bank is so busy that you cant fit more people into the branch, Im taking people literally crammed into the bank, bearly enough space to reach up and scratch there nose.
What would you do?
Tell the boss upstairs whats happening, (who has no idea because he is never in the bank)
or continue to work on and do your best to ignore the overcrowding problem?
Are you starting to see the bigger pictuir yet?
union's are just messengers between drivers and management.

read my post directly before this one and answer my question

why do you need the union in this case?

spareman

I wasnt aware that I could make an appointment to see Martin Cullen and discuss the future of the company, but I have been writing and sending him emails, Im still awaiting reply's. Union issue strike notice he reply's within hours, situation sorted strike averted. Do you see how unions are usefull yet?

Flukey

Management don't listen to those who know. Managers don't appreciate others, especially from the shop floor, coming in telling them how things should be done. If it is a good idea, they'll often sell it on up the food chain as being their own.

I am not a member of one, but unions are a necessarily evil at times. Workers have to be given a voice, when it is they that are doing the job. If there were no unions, what would happen? The workers would come together themselves to organise themselves, discuss their ideas and try and get their ideas heard. Hey presto, you've got a union. So even if there were no unions, there'd be unions. Even in the private sector there is usually some way for the ordinary worker to have their say, even if there is no union as such.

El Stuntman

spareman wrote:

I wasnt aware that I could make an appointment to see Martin Cullen and discuss the future of the company, but I have been writing and sending him emails, Im still awaiting reply's. QUOTE]

??? Of course he's not going to answer you!!

do you not have management in Dublin Bus? why not speak directly to them? is the worker-manager relationship so bad that you don't even think of doing this?


this is the same as a junior doctor in a hospital writing to Mary Harney with suggestions on how to improve a surgical procedure, instead of discussing it with the senior doctor.

what planet do you guys live on?

El Stuntman

Flukey wrote:

Even in the private sector there is usually some way for the ordinary worker to have their say, even if there is no union as such.

yes....it's called dialogue, conversation, ideas, innovation, teamwork - call it what you will

it works!! With not a union in sight

and if workers don't like the way things are going, they can leave....

why does everything in the public sector have to be turned into some union-government Mexican standoff?

markpb

El Stuntman wrote:

do you not have management in Dublin Bus? why not speak directly to them? is the worker-manager relationship so bad that you don't even think of doing this?

this is the same as a junior doctor in a hospital writing to Mary Harney with suggestions on how to improve a surgical procedure, instead of discussing it with the senior doctor.

what planet do you guys live on?

Probably a more sane one than you Do you have any idea how messed up this country is when it comes to public transport?

It would be nice to think Dublin Bus or the DTO had some control over the number of buses purchased, the routes they run on or the prices they charge but none of that is true in Dublin.

I'm fairly sure the DB management know just how crush-loaded their buses are. What will they do when the drivers tell them that? They might ask for (and be promised) more buses. They might submit a business plan for a reorganisation of the routes. They might do a lot of things but with Martin Cullen fast asleep at the puppet (and purse) strings, there's not a lot they can achieve.

El Stuntman

markpb wrote:

Probably a more sane one than you Do you have any idea how messed up this country is when it comes to public transport? .

yep, I get the DART every day (and I know this makes me 'one of the lucky ones' in public transport terms :eek: ). I had a good laugh yesterday on seeing a poster saying that 96% of DARTS were on time in the last year. I must have missed those ones....

markpb wrote:

It would be nice to think Dublin Bus or the DTO had some control over the number of buses purchased, the routes they run on or the prices they charge but none of that is true in Dublin.

:eek: :eek: :eek: now I'm really scared.

Will this super new transport authority for Dublin have the same problems?

markpb wrote:

I'm fairly sure the DB management know just how crush-loaded their buses are. What will they do when the drivers tell them that? They might ask for (and be promised) more buses. They might submit a business plan for a reorganisation of the routes. They might do a lot of things but with Martin Cullen fast asleep at the puppet (and purse) strings, there's not a lot they can achieve.

so DB management are basically emasculated? Same Q re new Authority - will they have the same problem?
Unless we can devolve control from politicos, transport provision will continue to be third-world in nature

don't worry about Cullen, he'll get what's coming to him....;)

Actually totally OT, I've often thought that Cullen must have some dirt on Bertie - it's the only way that someone that incompetent could possibly still have a ministerial job.

shltter

El Stuntman wrote:

so DB management are basically emasculated? Same Q re new Authority - will they have the same problem?
Unless we can devolve control from politicos, transport provision will continue to be third-world in nature

.

At last the penny drops

Basically what the unions were doing is trying to force the Government to live up to the promises and agreements they have made.
No the Unions should not have to do this but DB management cannot do it so speaking to the management about a situation that they have no control over is pointless.
Unfortunately the only the only thing that seems to work is to use the ire of the travelling public and hope it will be directed in the right place.

El Stuntman

God, the sooner unions get back to doing 'normal' stuff the better

More imaginary public sector union dialogue:

Union Head No 1: (belching). Ahhhh, dis Chateau Margaux 1952 stuff is alrigh' wha'?

Union Head No 2: Not wrong me aul' flower. Now lissen here, what de feck are we goin' to do dis week? Our members are de highest paid public sector workers in the wuurrild, wit dere jobs for life, dey all have second homes in de Algarve, dere pensions are secure and dere working conditions are bleedin' deadly. No accountability eider and no need to adhere to stupid beedin' tings like meetin' targets or customer satisfaction or any of dat aul ****e...
(Giz anudder blast offa dat Kobe beef)
It's almost a bit embarrasin' like - dem fcukwits in de private sector workin' demselves to de bone to pay for all dis....

(both break into paroxysms of laughter)

Union Head No 1: I know whatcha mean loike. What's left for us to do in order to justify our existence?

Union Head No 2: Jaysis, a bit too many long words dere. You'd want to watch yourself.

Union Head No 1: How's about dis den? We get involved in running everyting!! Let's start with Dublin Bus, dat Cullen is a tool anyway and Bertie caves in to us every time. And dere's an election coming - sure dem feckers will agree to anyting!!

Union Head No 2: Deadly. I haven't threatened a good strike for no reason for at least a week now...dis is goin' to be massive!!!