2/4 multiway cash hand

Gholimoli

2/4 cash hand 6max

villain here is a very good aggressive player .he has no problem betting if he smells weakness and loves betting out on raggy flops in a limped pot.
He often gets involved in raised pots in position and takes pots down with out showing hands.

Hand:
UTG limps(960)
I limp on the CO with JT o (400)
Button makes it 10 (200)
SB calls.
Villain calls from BB (1100)

UTG calls the raise
I call the raise .

Flop(50)

6 T 2 rainbow
SB checks.
Villain leads 30
UTG folds.

Whats the plan for the rest of the hand?

Lafortezza

75% fold for me. I don't see (a lowish) top pair and medium kicker being too strong in a multiway raised pot, when the BB leads into 3 players.
Playing JTo in this situation I'm hoping to hit trips/two pair/pair+draw and win a big pot. Top pair weak kicker isn't good for winning big multiway pots.

I like raising over calling if you don't fold, since if you raise to 75, button folds and BB calls, you might get a free card or you might hit. If BB leads a blank turn it looks like a v easy fold.

Gholimoli

lafortezza wrote:

75% fold for me. I don't see (a lowish) top pair and medium kicker being too strong in a multiway raised pot, when the BB leads into 3 players.
Playing JTo in this situation I'm hoping to hit trips/two pair/pair+draw and win a big pot. Top pair weak kicker isn't good for winning big multiway pots.

I like raising over calling if you don't fold, since if you raise to 75, button folds and BB calls, you might get a free card or you might hit. If BB leads a blank turn it looks like a v easy fold.

i agree with what your saying here but this villain is capable of making this bet with almost anything.
i know he dosent have an over pair here .
he could have TP better kicker than mine but i double he would lead with it.
i dont think he leads with a set either so i actually think my hand is good against villains range at this time.
however i do have button (the pre-flop raiser ) to act behind me but i dont put him on much of a hand.

El Stuntman

I don't like this spot....

but given your read on villain I make a pot-sized raise so 80

Lafortezza

I agree that buttons piddly little 2.5BB raise means he could have a wide range. And if your read on he BB is correct and there's a reasonable chance you're ahead then continuing in the hand is ok. But I think it's going to be a very difficult hand to play well and to make the correct decisions.

FastMachine

Reraise his ass, let him make the tough decisions.

cardshark202

Re-raise into the button who can't believe all this action as he sits there with TT/AA/KK.:)

FastMachine

Well if the buttons calls the reraise you're finished with this hand and you're out cheap.

cardshark202

I would just call and see what button does or else just fold. I also don't buy it that this: "good aggressive player" can't be leading with anything that beats JT. If that is the case he is not a good aggressive player at all, he is an aggressive chip-spewer with an easy tell.

bops

99% of the time - raise to find out where you're at

...if button folds and villian calls/reraises then you have a decision to make -
depending on your style of play - either he's in front or he aint - personally i stupidly like to gamble most times here - emphasize the word "stupidly"

gl

Gholimoli

cardshark202 wrote:

I would just call and see what button does or else just fold. I also don't buy it that this: "good aggressive player" can't be leading with anything that beats JT. If that is the case he is not a good aggressive player at all, he is an aggressive chip-spewer with an easy tell.

I didn’t say he is not leading with anything that beats JT.i said I don’t think his got an over pair (JJ,QQ,KK,AA) here cuz he would have raised to reduce the field pre flop.
Also I don’t think he has a set cuz with this many players in I think he would check to see what happens.
I also know he is more likely betting draws and raggy flops because he does this often.

El Stuntman

who's villain Gholi?

cardshark202

Gholimoli wrote:

I didn’t say he is not leading with anything that beats JT.i said I don’t think his got an over pair (JJ,QQ,KK,AA) here cuz he would have raised to reduce the field pre flop.
Also I don’t think he has a set cuz with this many players in I think he would check to see what happens.
I also know he is more likely betting draws and raggy flops because he does this often.

This is a very dry board, the only draws out there are middlers, I would just fold here with the preflop raiser to act behind me. If I did want to play the pot I would just call.

FastMachine

Folding isn't too bad here either but I'd probably still take the aggressive option. That's the thing I don't like about small preflop raises, you end up in tricky pots where you have to make very marginal decisions.

Gholimoli

folding is certainly an option and not a bad one at all.
however i decided to carry on with the hand as i fancy my hand against villains range here and i do have position on him.
so flat call the raise with intention of looking at the PFR actions.
button folds his hand and its HU from here with me and villain:

Turn (120)

3s Putting a flush draw out there.
Villain leads for 50.

What’s my move?

fuzzbox

Im folding the flop Gholi ... in fact Im folding preflop (or raising myself).

Hectorjelly

Interesting hand. Firsty fuzz would you always fold JTo here? What if utg was bad? What if there were more limpers?

Fastmachine, firstly I know it may seem like im picking on you; but im not. I think your an excellent player but for some reason I nearly always disagree with your analysis. In this case I think all 3 options are reasnable, folding calling and raising; however raising is clearly the worst. Similarly to the JJ hand you are turning your hand into a bluff, because you will never be ahead if you get to showdown taking this line. All you are doing is making it easy for yourself, at the expense of making a profit.

fuzzbox

I am not always folding JTo here. But I dont like limping with it very much. But I'm not much of a limper in any case, so perhaps that is clouding my judgement.

Obv, you call when it comes back around.

A full pot lead into a field is a very strong play. JTo is not very strong on this board.

FastMachine

Hectorjelly wrote:

Interesting hand. Firsty fuzz would you always fold JTo here? What if utg was bad? What if there were more limpers?

Fastmachine, firstly I know it may seem like im picking on you; but im not. I think your an excellent player but for some reason I nearly always disagree with your analysis. In this case I think all 3 options are reasnable, folding calling and raising; however raising is clearly the worst. Similarly to the JJ hand you are turning your hand into a bluff, because you will never be ahead if you get to showdown taking this line. All you are doing is making it easy for yourself, at the expense of making a profit.

It's cool, I don't mind arguing over hands. We obviously have quite different approaches to alot of situations. I know your strong believer in not letting your opponents play perfectly, as in fold worse hands and call with better ones. I can see where your coming from but I don't give the majority of villains that much credit. Even when given the chance to fold what is obviously (to us if we were in their position) a worse hand they still call. And that's before you factor in if you bluff with the correct frequency and generally bet hard nearly all the time, whether you have a great hand or a nothing, a villain is going to have a have time folding a marginal hand when he knows theres a chance he's ahead.

My standard way of playing this hand would be folding the flop if the villain was of average aggression but going on gholi's read if the villain will bet this with a wide range I'd play it. I'd reraise the flop to thin the field and find out straight away if the button has me beat so I can be done with it there and then if called, rather than dragging it on. The reraise serves another indirect purpose in that your opponents see you reraising marginal hands so you'll get a bit more action in future.
On the turn, if the button folded and big blind called I'd bet about half pot and check it down on the river. That's a fairly cheap showdown and that's all I'm looking for with top pair 10 J kicker. I'm don't mind if the villain folds worse hands such as 88 or 99, A6, gutshot etc.. on the turn (or even the flop), I'm not getting anymore money off these guys anyway with my marginal holding unless they outdraw me.

Gholimoli

Fuzz I sometimes raise here and some times call .i would rarely fold this in this spot pre flop.
If I feel my raises are getting though then I raise it but this table was not really folding to raises pre flop so I decided to limp.
Now on the flop I don’t like reraising here because I have button yet to act behind me.if I raise and he reraises then I must drop my hand but for now I can just call and keep the pot small.
When button folds its better good for me.
When the turn came and villain bets out again I deffo put him on a draw.i would suspect he would check TPTK behind here and try and induce a bluff from me and unless he has made some sort of strange two pair I still think my hand is good.
I call the bet and the river is 2s .
Villain leads for 50 and I call?
Comments before I give results?

FastMachine

Worked out nicely for you, as cheap a showdown as you could've hoped for, which is what you want with this hand, whether you won or lost. Reraising the flop, betting the turn about half pot and checking the river works out at almost the same price btw. Don't tell me the villain hit a backdoor flush and only bet 50.....

Gholimoli

villain had 98s for a middle pin which hit a flush on the river.