How come?

Michael O Leary

How come every time someone posts a thread asking where can they learn self-defence we get the usual MMA posters bleating their mantra, "maybe just avoid bad places"?

Why can't you MMA guys just accept the fact that some people want to learn how to defend themselves and just leave it at that? I am not aware of any SD instructors who would discourage a poster from learning combat sports.

If you feel that MMA is better for SD then fine, promote what you do but don't start your psyco-babble and start analysing someone's motivation for self-defence.

Now we have someone asking about self-defence, vashro starts his psyco babble, the original poster makes a one sentence comment which can be taken any way and the thread is closed with the "moderator" citing domestic violence.

Roper, you asked Dave Joyce to let this one go. I would suggest that you MMA guys let this one go. This is another example of a self-defence thread being hi-jacked by MMA guys who cannot any other reason for martial arts training outside of their own little world.

For shame.:(

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Budo.Judo.Kev

No, Mike, I'm afraid it's all in your head.

vasch_ro

It was the way he/she phrased the reason that he/she needed to learn self defence, he/she insinuated that they had a problem with certain persons,
" i need to learn how to defend myself against people bigger and stronger then me" when i read that I was wondering why that was in particular,
I feel it is perfectly fair to pose a question without having it labeled as Pyscho Babble, I in NO WAY WHATSOEVER attempted to presuade or dissuade anyone in relation to ANY MARTIAL ART, i did not attempt to discourage anyone to learn self defence also i am in no way attached to any PERCEIVED CLIQUE that may or may not exist on this board in relation to MMA vs TMA vs Combatives vs SD.
but I am seriously pissed off with your last comment. This is the first time since July 2000 (long before the term MMA was ever used on this forum ) that I have been so annoyed at a post and the insuations contained in it! I feel an apology is due Mr O Leary.:mad:

columok

Michael,

Vasch_ro being a law enforcement officer and as much a karateka as a BJJ-ka I think is personally entitled to ask a question like that. Pretty sensible question to me. The whole MMA conspiracy thing is getting old.

If you feel that MMA is better for SD then fine, promote what you do but don't start your psyco-babble and start analysing someone's motivation for self-defence.

I don't think it's "do MMA not SD". I think it tends to be "Interrogate why you want to do SD, if you REALLY want to do SD and how far you're willing to go to preserve your life- not just in combat self defence but self defence in general".

Roper

Michael O Leary wrote:

How come every time someone posts a thread asking where can they learn self-defence we get the usual MMA posters bleating their mantra, "maybe just avoid bad places"?

Why can't you MMA guys just accept the fact that some people want to learn how to defend themselves and just leave it at that? I am not aware of any SD instructors who would discourage a poster from learning combat sports.

I for one don't like to be lumped in with "MMA guys" as a group. Differences in opinion between MMA guys tend to be glossed over in favour of this mass conspiracy theory. I'm actually finding it a little bit frustrating at this stage because no discussions can take place without someone going on about how "MMA guys" are ganging up on them.

And I know plenty of SD instructors who think that combat sports breed bad habits and think that they're sh1t for self defence. Thats okay, thats their opinion, it differs to mine but if they can back it up with their rationale, I'll accept it.

This is about the locked thread I take it Michael? Why does it piss you off that someone saw what was potentially a deeper issue than just learning some self defence and decided not to let people discuss it on a public forum? Why are most of the posts I read from you these days either point scoring against those who you say are in this vast homogenous MMA group, or giving out about people saying "avoid bad places first". (how is that bad advice?)

Shame? Get your own post list up and have a look down at how much you've tried to score points or just plain whined and then tell people to be ashamed...:mad:

Tim_Murphy

Michael staring in...

Baggio...

Michael O Leary wrote:

a one sentence comment which can be taken any way and the thread is closed with the "moderator" citing domestic violence.
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That's a fair comment - I did not particularly get a get a domestic violence vibe tbh. I thought the comment made about parents was used to high light the fact that you can't always avoid bad places at certain times, etc.

Baggio.

cavedave

How come every time someone posts a thread asking where can they learn self-defence we get the usual MMA posters bleating their mantra, "maybe just avoid bad places"?

Because of evidence.
Over 90% of people reading this will die from Heart attack or cancer. If you live healthily with decent diet, attitude and take some exercise you will increase your healthy lifespan by much more then by being able to beat people up.

If you are interested in the self defense for the statistically very unlikely chance of being attacked by random strangers then the mma posters bleat on about the belief that location awareness and the ability to sprint are probably of greater use then being able to fight.
David

Dragan

Michael O Leary wrote:

Now we have someone asking about self-defence, vashro starts his psyco babble, the original poster makes a one sentence comment which can be taken any way and the thread is closed with the "moderator" citing domestic violence.

Hey Michael,

i actually just had a read through the thread and would have to say that i disagree.....to be honest the OP was being practically ignored after Boru posted about his seminar, the "this vs that" childishness had already begun by then.

Vashro asked a very pertinent question, knowing who the OP would need to defend against and why is very important. If a young man came to your and said "My uncle attacks and abuses me" would you say "okay, learn stick fighting etc" or would you say "you need to go the the police and the relevant authorities"????

When asked could they not change there situation ( which you must agree, if you are under a constant threat of attack is normally a good idea to do, no? ) the OP said "I cannot change my parents".....thats a pretty clear indication that this is where the problem lies, no????

columok

If you're serious about SD then you live paleo and do crossfit. You don't smoke, you poo in a squat position, you don't drink, you sleep on a hard uneven floor. These are the things that will preserve your life 99% more than being able to disarm a knife or fire a left/right combo. That's not opinion- it's logic. What kills people are heart attacks, cancer, liver disease and a million more things. Therefore 99% of your SD training time should be spent dealing with them rather than learning to beat people up. I can't understand how anybody could challenge that. It makes sense. Probability 101 and all that.

So I genuinely feel that the majority of people who feel that MA or combatitives is realistic SD training are ignoring probability, logic and are chosing to ignore their likely future attackers. I wonder why they'd do that? Cause kicking ass is infinitely more "cool" than eating healthily or doing cardio...

And who hear trains windsprints for SD?

Baggio...

cavedave wrote:

Because of evidence.
Over 90% of people reading this will die from Heart attack or cancer. If you live healthily with decent diet, attitude and take some exercise you will increase your healthy lifespan by much more then by being able to beat people up.
David

Not trying to be funny, but tell us something we don't know. Am I to understand that us “RBSD” guys don't understand the concept of a “healthy lifestyle”? I've heard that statement so many times now. WE KNOW...

Statistically we all know that the chances of being in a “random attack” are pretty low. But I love my training and all the concepts behind it. So even if I was never to be attacked again or be in a fight - I would still train because I love it.

I'm sure if you asked on the forum how many people have been in some kind of street fight, most of them will say they been involved in one at some point – so what's wrong with having a few skills if the time comes?

Baggio.

columok

Cause people state that they want to learn to defend themselves. The reality is that they don't really want to preserve themselves. They're looking for something else. If they wanted to increase their chance of living longer and healthier you wouldn't even factor MA training in... It wouldn't make sense.

Colm_OReilly

Michael,

I'm a moderator, not a "moderator". BTW I was requested to be the mod by posters on this board - long before all the MMA guys started to hijack every thread.

Seriously, your posts are not cool.

If you feel that MMA is better for SD then fine, promote what you do but don't start your psyco-babble and start analysing someone's motivation for self-defence.

It's perfectly within the boundary of someone who is asked to offer advice to ask for clarity. Most people start with fairly fuzzy goals and reasons, so questioning them on what they're after seems far more important than providing a why/how to some fuzzy goal.

This is another example of a self-defence thread being hi-jacked by MMA guys who cannot any other reason for martial arts training outside of their own little world.

You know the reasons for us MMAers posting? And that we can't see another reason? Sounds awfully close to pscyho-babble to me.

I thought the comment made about parents was used to high light the fact that you can't always avoid bad places at certain times

Baggio, it is possible. However it could have been stated like this - "I can't move out of my house, I'm only 15"

I'm sure if you asked on the forum how many people have been in some kind of street fight, most of them will say they been involved in one at some point – so what's wrong with having a few skills if the time comes?

I see nothing wrong with it. But you understand the probability of it and the context. Personally I think it's far more important to understand that first.

Colm

Millionaire

Fair enough about living a good life style. eating correct. do yoga etc etc.

This "healthy Lifestyle" theme, IMO comes from Matt Thornton, as he writes alot about this in his articles on this web site. sure fair enough....if Matt and his followers like that... sure do it.

That might suit some of you, but it may not suit other people...



what I mean is, many people (normal people , guards, models, wives, lawyers, accountants, taxi men, etc etc) I met that come to learn SD, to do SD, as in if someone tried to rob their cash and the ATM, and tried to hit them a slap in the process, wanted specifically to learn what to do.

They did not come to get fit, make friends, train for a combat sport. etc etc (though in the process they did get fit, make friends, and some got interested in MA, and took training to a higher level).

Many who came to learn SD, I would say 80% either had a Violent experience (as in attack, mugging, break in etc etc) or indeed had a friend/family member experience similar, or they worked in a job that left them vunerable.

for example one of my last students, was a taxi driver, he had a knife put to this throat one night, and was robber. He was so scared, he would not work at night, which really effected his confidence, and his livileyhood. so he came to me, and I trained him for 3 months, in basic SD stuff, that works, (also avoidence, SD awarness stuff. ).... as a result.... he got his confidence back, became a new man,. ,and got back to working the nights.

Now he came to me to learn SD, for SD sake. and yes eyes, throat and balls strikes I taught him, because they work!!!! (amongst other things of course!)

He did not come to me to learn a "healty sporting combating mindset".

If someone want to do something healthy, go down to Roy at the www.irishschoolofyoga.com I used to go there, and its the healthiest thing I have ever done.

If you a scared Taxi drive or similar, come to me, and I will train you what to do, so if your ever attacked again, its your attacker that will have confidence problems for the rest of their life!!! ;-)

Baggio...

columok wrote:

Cause people state that they want to learn to defend themselves. The reality is that they don't really want to preserve themselves. They're looking for something else. If they wanted to increase their chance of living longer and healthier you wouldn't even factor MA training in... It wouldn't make sense.

Well that's it though.... So if some one wants to be able to defend themselves they take up a "martial art" (whatever style is up to you). If they want to preserve themselves they live a healthy lifestyle.

I see them as kinda' separate things in a way. Therefore they use a different set of skills. Now, you can blend them all together which is what we all try to do (or should do ).

There are quite a lot of people that wont go near MMA. It's tough training and it not for everyone. I don't think is was ever designed to fit the average person. I cant see someone in their mid forties rolling on their floor - it's not very accessible (I'm sure there is the odd exception). At least with RBSD you can give anyone a better chance should the need arise any one can benefit from those skills.

Rob.

Tim_Murphy

I see them as kinda' separate things in a way.

I don't see how they are seperate things myself. They are both about staying safe and healthy. I don't see how somebody could be genuinely interested in being able to defend themselves against an attack and not be too interested in say being able to defend themselves against ill health. It would be completely illogical.

I don't think is was ever designed to fit the average person.

It wasn't 'designed' to fit anyone as such. There is no reason why the average person (whoever that is) can't do MMA. I've had loads of people casually train with me, one or two nights a week. Of course they aren't going to be stepping up and fighting pro MMA, but that's not what they train for. No reason why they can't train at a lower intensity and enjoy it.

I cant see someone in their mid forties rolling on their floor - it's not very accessible

why?

Roper

Baggio... wrote:

There are quite a lot of people that wont go near MMA. It's tough training and it not for everyone. I don't think is was ever designed to fit the average person. I cant see someone in their mid forties rolling on their floor - it's not very accessible (I'm sure there is the odd exception). At least with RBSD you can give anyone a better chance should the need arise any one can benefit from those skills.

Thats a commonly held attitude, and its wrong and keeps people away from MMA who could benifit from it. There are levels in everything, someone in their mid forties might not be able to do fight training, but theres no reason in the world for someone not to train at their own pace and level other than the image you've described above.

And it wasn't "designed to fit the average person" because it wasn't designed, and "it" is not even an "it"!!! Go to Kokoro in East Wall and come to my class and you'll see two different approaches to "it". There is no "style" or art of MMA, its a training concept and how you fulfill it is up to you.

Millionaire

Thats an interesting point Baggio says, and MMA not being for everyone, and that its tough training.

Same can be said for Muay Thai! (so I cannot be accused of picking on MMA).

Sometimes I think this ideal of "healthy combat sport, I am an Athlete" etc... is very Elitist (elite) in mindset....and if anything would put people off wanting to train in MA. perhaps they are a bit older, out of shape, and would get scared off by that.

For example, I am a decent enough striker, doing it years, have a few fights behind me, one at an international level, and now at 34 I feel myself slowing a little. (just part of the aging cycle) anyway I wonder will be we able to train, and hit bags an pads like I do in 10 or 15 years? injuries will come quick for sure then.

so maybe then I would not be keen on training with "athlelicism" , maybe I would be happy to take up aikido, or go learn some forms, so I can train withn my own levesl without injury. or maybe I will go back to a less demanding style of krav maga or something.

as Baggio said, its not accessible for everyone, tough training, to to be good at Muay Thai, you must train tough....and I guess MMA is similar?

cavedave

So even if I was never to be attacked again or be in a fight - I would still train because I love it.

That sounds like martial arts rather then self defense.

Millionaire

Tim_Murphy wrote:

I don't see how they are seperate things myself. They are both about staying safe and healthy. I don't see how somebody could be genuinely interested in being able to defend themselves against an attack and not be too interested in say being able to defend themselves against ill health. It would be completely illogical.
?

So do you give out free Condoms at your MA school then?

Condoms help prevent against ill health.

Imagine Tims class.... "right lads , tonight lesson is about learing SD and staying healthy too, so 3mins of rolling, and the winner gets a box of Ribbed Durex" LOL!!!

Tim_Murphy

Ribbed AND flavoured!

cavedave

Not trying to be funny, but tell us something we don't know. Am I to understand that us “RBSD” guys don't understand the concept of a “healthy lifestyle”? I've heard that statement so many times now. WE KNOW...

How am I supposed to provide an argument if the rebuttle is "we know"

Either my answer is invalid or it is correct. If it is correct and everyone knows this answer to be correct already you should be telling the person asking the question that "We know".

Baggio...

Roper wrote:

Thats a commonly held attitude, and its wrong and keeps people away from MMA who could benifit from it.

Why do people have that attitude then?

So it's an image problem? Well, not many MMA'ers are doing anything about it. I reckon quite a few people might be put off if they were reading stuff on this forum. Considering you guys are trying to run clubs as well.

Also, what if you don't want to train regularly or for fitness, but just want to train for a bit of self-protection? Does MMA fit the bill?

Tim_Murphy

Why do people have that attitude then?

It's a commone enough misconception I think. Probably brought about because people presume they know about something when really they don't.

So it's an image problem? Well, not many MMA'ers are doing anything about it.

Quite a lot are actually.

I reckon quite a few people might be put off if they were reading stuff on this forum.

I can't speak for others, but quite a lot of people have contacted me through this forum and others with regards to training.

SorGan

columok wrote:

If you're serious about SD then you live paleo and do crossfit. You don't smoke, you poo in a squat position, you don't drink, you sleep on a hard uneven floor. These are the things that will preserve your life 99% more than being able to disarm a knife or fire a left/right combo. That's not opinion- it's logic. What kills people are heart attacks, cancer, liver disease and a million more things. Therefore 99% of your SD training time should be spent dealing with them rather than learning to beat people up. I can't understand how anybody could challenge that. It makes sense. Probability 101 and all that.

So I genuinely feel that the majority of people who feel that MA or combatitives is realistic SD training are ignoring probability, logic and are chosing to ignore their likely future attackers. I wonder why they'd do that? Cause kicking ass is infinitely more "cool" than eating healthily or doing cardio...

And who hear trains windsprints for SD?

And what if your main concern is protecting your family, windsprints??
and can i ask as well if i do all the above, is it all right by you if then, i can do some training?
just to be very clear, you can be in great shape/health and still need to defend yourself or others.making generalizations about the majority of ma/sd people ,is simply insulting, as if we all were not completely different people, with perhaps only this one interest in comman.

pma-ire

This stuff about heart and liver problems in relation to Self Defence is complete BS!!

When people want to learn SD it's not to keep them alive!! It's about keeping unharmed, unmarked and safe!!

I agree that some MA's market themselves as being able to save you life in the big bad world of street attacks. But I think everyone is guilty of a big of that in there marketing, and find it rich that they think it ok to throw mub at others that do the same!!

Roper

Baggio... wrote:

Why do people have that attitude then?

Various reasons, but a lot to do with the fact that its 'athletic training'. That doesn't mean everyone who does it is a peak athlete, just that they get to train athletically to the best of their ability. Some people think that what that means is that they'll be doing a zillion push ups, but thats not the case.

Well, not many MMA'ers are doing anything about it. I reckon quite a few people might be put off if they were reading stuff on this forum. Considering you guys are trying to run clubs as well.

So how many "MMAers" do you know again? 5 or 6 from this forum? Sweet research.
I get a few people pming me on this forum who are interested in what we do, if people are put off by what they read here, then they're probably not interested in training with me anyway so whats the difference?

Also, what if you don't want to train regularly or for fitness, but just want to train for a bit of self-protection? Does MMA fit the bill?

Given that everybody's answer to the self defence problem is to leg it when you have a chance, then how can fitness (some basic level of fitness that is, not elite fitness) and self protection be seperated? Seeing as every fight, no matter how short, needs some basic level of fitness, how can the two be seperated?

Baggio, I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that even though you argue against MMA as a discipline, you actually don't really know what it is. No offence, I know sweet fa about economics but I'm not going to argue with an economist any time soon.

columok

Sorgan wrote:

And what if your main concern is protecting your family, windsprints??
and can i ask as well if i do all the above, is it all right by you if then, i can do some training?
just to be very clear, you can be in great shape/health and still need to defend yourself or others.making generalizations about the majority of ma/sd people ,is simply insulting, as if we all were not completely different people, with perhaps only this one interest in comman.

If you want to preserve the lives of your loved ones then there is always a million thing you could be doing that will preserve their lives before getting into learning to fight. Seriously. If you're solemn in your desire to ensure that the people you love are safe in day to day life and live long healthy lives then that 6 hours a week could be spent doing much better things. Be insulted all you like. That's pure logic. Other things will more than likely kill your loved ones. Yet we don't devote those 6 hours to hunting better food or growing fresh vegetables. Those things will prolong the lives of the people you love infinitely more than MA training. Lets be real here.

Baggio...

Roper wrote:

So how many "MMAers" do you know again? 5 or 6 from this forum? Sweet research.

Well, I'm just going on what I've read here from people like yourself . Plus I have a few mates that do it. And it 'aint my cup of tea – but good luck to them. Also Micheal is tight you fella's constatly critise RBSD with the limited knowlege you have about it and do it at every opportunity.

Roper wrote:

I get a few people pming me on this forum who are interested in what we do, if people are put off by what they read here, then they're probably not interested in training with me anyway so whats the difference?

I never disputed that... But I'm just wondering ghow many people feel that it's accesible.

Roper wrote:

self protection be seperated? Seeing as every fight, no matter how short, needs some basic level of fitness, how can the two be seperated?

Nothing wrong with having a bit of fitness at all. But again not everybody wants to train for fitness. Read what I sad...
What if your in your sixties or disabled or whatever? Then MMA may not be for you.

Roper wrote:

Baggio, I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that even though you argue against MMA as a discipline, you actually don't really know what it is. No offence, I know sweet fa about economics but I'm not going to argue with an economist any time soon.

No offence taken mate. I know as much about MMA and you do about RBSD.

kenpo_dave

Baggio... wrote:

Why do people have that attitude then?

So it's an image problem? Well, not many MMA'ers are doing anything about it. I reckon quite a few people might be put off if they were reading stuff on this forum. Considering you guys are trying to run clubs as well.

Also, what if you don't want to train regularly or for fitness, but just want to train for a bit of self-protection? Does MMA fit the bill?

Actually Id imagine theres still more people interested in MMA than not. Like Tim and Barry, Ive had several enquiries about Kokoro on this forum, and Shane gets calls all the time from people looking at the website. Some come down to check us out, others dont.

Baggio... wrote:

There are quite a lot of people that wont go near MMA. It's tough training and it not for everyone. I don't think is was ever designed to fit the average person. I cant see someone in their mid forties rolling on their floor - it's not very accessible (I'm sure there is the odd exception). At least with RBSD you can give anyone a better chance should the need arise any one can benefit from those skills.

Im an average person. And Id say alot of the people who train in Kokoro are "average" people. Yes the training is tough, but so what, I cant imagine it being any tougher than say Rugby or Soccor. Not everyone is like Frans and Lawrence, but again, so what.
Why wouldnt someone in their 40's be rolling? I think the floor is very accessible - man lies down, man stands up, man lies down, man stands up - how is that not accessible

OSU,

Dave.

Baggio...

columok wrote:

If you want to preserve the lives of your loved ones then there is always a million thing you could be doing that will preserve their lives before getting into learning to fight.

Lets asume that you do all that “life preserving” stuff already. So what's wrong with being able to protect yoursef and your family?

Roper

kenpo_dave wrote:

Why wouldnt someone in their 40's be rolling? I think the floor is very accessible - man lies down, man stands up, man lies down, man stands up - how is that not accessible

LOL:D Maybe we should get a ramp down to it!!!

columok

Lets asume that you do all that “life preserving” stuff already. So what's wrong with being able to protect yoursef and your family?

My point is you can never do enough of the stuff infinitely more important than fighting. How about learning polish, chinese- things that could help avoid a misunderstanding in ireland or abroad. How about learning orienteering. How about learning how to organically grow and living out of your garden instead of tescos. The list goes on and on. It can't be argued with. The statistics of what WILL kill you are crystal clear and they statistically aren't gonna be street thugs. They WILL be cancer, heart disease, depression, alzheimers etc. So to claim that MA training for SD is realistic is absolute madness in my eyes.

Baggio...

kenpo_dave wrote:

Actually Id imagine theres still more people interested in MMA than not.

I don't agree...

Again I'm not saying that people are'nt interested in it. I feel that it excludes quite a number of people. Same as boxing might. A lot of people may want to go through that type of training.

kenpo_dave wrote:

Actually Id imagine theres still more people interested in MMA than not. Like Tim and Barry, Ive had several enquiries about Kokoro on this forum, and Shane gets calls all the time from people looking at the website. Some come down to check us out, others dont.

kenpo_dave wrote:

Why wouldnt someone in their 40's be rolling? I think the floor is very accessible - man lies down, man stands up, man lies down, man stands up - how is that not accessible

Well how many pople in their 40's and 50's are doing it? Not many.. you would see a lot more in a Kenpo class (tma etc.).

Baggio...

columok wrote:

How about learning polish, chinese- things that could help avoid a misunderstanding in ireland or abroad. How about learning orienteering. How about learning how to organically grow and living out of your garden instead of tescos.

Um.... I would see having self defence skills a bazillion times more important that learning Polish or Chinese . That to me wouds serve no purpose what so ever.

I enjoy my training - so it has purpose, even if I was never to use it. If it makes me happy - that will have huge health benifits (stress relief, fitness - the list goes on).

Baggio...

Roper wrote:

LOL:D Maybe we should get a ramp down to it!!!

40 is not old of course.

But the type of people I'm talking about are some average bods who maybe have never trained M.A. in their lives, but want to learn how to defend themselfes in a short space of time and might not have the interest to continue training. There is obviously a pretty big demand for that type of training. Most of those RBSD seminars are pretty jam packed.

I'm simply saying that MMA cannot really fit the bill for those type of people.

Tim_Murphy

Again I'm not saying that people are'nt interested in it. I feel that it excludes quite a number of people. Same as boxing might.

This is your presumption, have you ever even trained in a MMA club? I don't think it's really the same as boxing. Most boxing clubs as far as I am aware are generally focused on competition and getting the guys ready for it. If you are not a fighter you are getting in the way type of thing. That's not the case in any MMA club in Ireland that I know of. In a few weeks time when college starts up down here there'll probably be 50+ people training the deadly elitist MMA club. From previous experience I'd say the newbies will range from athletic rudby players to 50kg girls who have never done much training before. Everyone welcome, and everyone goes at a pace they are comfortable with.

Well how many pople in their 40's and 50's are doing it? Not many.. you would see a lot more in a Kenpo class (tma etc.).

What statistics/experiences are you basing this claim on?

columok

Baggio wrote:

Um.... I would see having self defence skills a bazillion times more important that learning Polish or Chinese . That to me wouds serve no purpose what so ever.

I think that sums up your mindset mate. Polish/Chinese/Urdu/Arabic some of the most spoken languages in Ireland not to mention the world. A misunderstanding due to language is much more likely to bail you out of bother and save your life than a right cross ever will...

I enjoy my training

Me too. I train for enjoyment and enjoyment alone. If I was training for self defence I'd stop training and go do a million and one non MA things. Maybe that sums up my mindset.

Barry.Commins

I generally try to stay out of these discussions since I think they just go around in circles, but I just felt an urge to post here.

Baggio... wrote:

But the type of people I'm talking about are some average bods who maybe have never trained M.A. in their lives, but want to learn how to defend themselfes in a short space of time and might not have the interest to continue training. There is obviously a pretty big demand for that type of training. Most of those RBSD seminars are pretty jam packed.

I'm simply saying that MMA cannot really fit the bill for those type of people.

I can understand how you could see MMA as a sport aimed at fitter, younger people, and while I don't fully agree, I don't think it's an unreasonable statement, but when you say:

Baggio... wrote:

...want to learn how to defend themselfes in a short space of time and might not have the interest to continue training. There is obviously a pretty big demand for that type of training.

I'm just wondering is there really any way that these sort of people can learn to defend themselves realistically in a short space of time? (Especially if they "might not have the interest to continue training"?)

droc

I'm an MMA guy, have been for years, probably one of the better known members of the Irish MMA community outside of Ireland (though I'm not a fighter) thanks to the different MMA based roles I've held.

I disagree with most of the MMA guys on this thread. You seem to have some great statistics on death and the various causes, I haven't seen any on injury or psychlogical trauma, both of which can be the results of attacks or crimes.

You also seem to have ignored those people who have already been attacked or traumatised and merely want to convince themselves that they have learned something useful so that they will be able to walk the streets again without constantly checking over their shoulder. According to your own statistics they are highly unlikely to suffer another attack, the only real benefits they'll get will be psychological, but sometimes that's enough.

DROC

columok

the MMA guys on this thread

]
C'mon Darragh there is no spoon and there are no "MMA guys".

You seem to have some great statistics on death and the various causes, I haven't seen any on injury or psychlogical trauma, both of which can be the results of attacks or crimes.

Disputing the relative death rates of people due to street attacks vs. cancer/artherosclerosis/etc seems a little needless. Similarly hospitalisation rates of people due to smoking vs. due to street attacks.... Hmmm....

You also seem to have ignored those people who have already been attacked or traumatised and merely want to convince themselves that they have learned something useful so that they will be able to walk the streets again without constantly checking over their shoulder. According to your own statistics they are highly unlikely to suffer another attack, the only real benefits they'll get will be psychological, but sometimes that's enough.

This is the job for a trained mental health professional not the job for an MMA TMA, RBSD or anyone else coach.

SorGan

columok wrote:

I think that sums up your mindset mate. Polish/Chinese/Urdu/Arabic some of the most spoken languages in Ireland not to mention the world. A misunderstanding due to language is much more likely to bail you out of bother and save your life than a right cross ever will...

and drinking in town is much more likely to get you in trouble than some language misunderstanding, due to assho1es and booze,whats all this talk about death anyway?
much much more likely some drunk just takes a swing.

Me too. I train for enjoyment and enjoyment alone. If I was training for self defence I'd stop training and go do a million and one non MA things. Maybe that sums up my mindset.

well thats you. i train because i want to.
its fun though:D

kenpo_dave

Hmm. I may be wrong here but it seems that Baggio is talking about self defense whilst others are talking more about self preservation. Defense implies thats theres offense so IMO Martial Arts/SD training is very much a major part of self defense. I would also consider being able to speak a variety of languages a part of self defense as it can help avoid situations that may arise due to a language barrier.
I would then consider self defense to be part of self preservation, but only minor part. IMO the primary focus of self preservation is longevity. Activities and practices that improve and maintain good health. So, as others have already said, healty eating, good exercise routines, stress relief, or even better, avoiding stress altogether. The self defense practice would play a part in the good exercise routines, as I suppose any sport would.

Im going to cut myself short there as I dont want to start another long string of posts.

OSU,

Dave.

droc

Spoons, I know nothing about spoons ...

I haven't disputed the statistics, I'm sure they're right, just not necessarily relevant. Kempo Dave is right, there are different people on the thread talking about different things and treating them as if they're exactly the same subject.

The funniest thing is that everyone on the thread is in denial. We all know the real reasons people do various Martial Arts, it's because hurting people is fun. MMA guys like throwing people on the ground, punching/kicking them a lot and breaking bits off or sending them to sleep. TKD guys like kicking ****ers in the head, Thai Boxers like feeling peoples faces collapse under the impact of their knee or elbows, WingTsun and RBSD guys like the feeling of eyes wrapping around their thumbs and balls being crushed between their fingers.

Whatever type of pain you like inflicting, we shouldn't be fighting each other, our goals are the same ... hurting ****ers.

As Genki Sudo says, we are all one !!!

(Crosses fingers in the hope that this post was funnier than the last one and I don't get another warning :d )

DROC

Baggio...

Barry.Commins wrote:

I'm just wondering is there really any way that these sort of people can learn to defend themselves realistically in a short space of time? (Especially if they "might not have the interest to continue training"?)

Whoa there.
I never said that you could learn self defence in a very short space of time. But there are a lot of RBSD'ers out there that believe that it can be done. I 'aint one of them.... I was playing Devils advocate.

As I mentioned in previous posts - that it could be done over a period of months with a certain amount of follow up training. Now you could impart a few self-protection principles over a seminar that could prove useful. But I would recommend for anyone to continue to train.

kenpo_dave wrote:

Hmm. I may be wrong here but it seems that Baggio is talking about self defence.

.

Aye, that is correct.

kenpo_dave wrote:

would also consider being able to speak a variety of languages a part of self defence as it can help avoid situations that may arise due to a language barrier.

Now personally I would consider learning another language for self-defence purposes very very extreme and pointless. Not to mention and a huge waste of my time – when I could be doing something far more productive. But that's just me....

Baggio...

SorGan wrote:

and drinking in town is much more likely to get you in trouble than some language misunderstanding, due to assho1es and booze,whats all this talk about death anyway?
much much more likely some drunk just takes a swing.

Toatally agree...

Barry.Commins

Baggio... wrote:

Whoa there.
I never said that you could learn self defence in a very short space of time. But there are a lot of RBSD'ers out there that believe that it can be done. I 'aint one of them.... I was playing Devils advocate.

As I mentioned in previous posts - that it could be done over a period of months with a certain amount of follow up training. Now you could impart a few self-protection principles over a seminar that could prove useful. But I would recommend for anyone to continue to train.

Ok, thanks. That's all I wanted to know. I just think that some people can be conned into thinking they can learn to defend themselves by doing a weekend course with no follow up training, and that's just not how it works.

Baggio...

Barry.Commins wrote:

Ok, thanks. That's all I wanted to know. I just think that some people can be conned into thinking they can learn to defend themselves by doing a weekend course with no follow up training, and that's just not how it works.

I absolutely agree with you there - alot of people are just taking good money off naive people. Weekend courses cant do it justice.
($$$$):mad:

Months of hard training and the understanding certain principles will give you a better chance, but there are no guarantees, or any such thing as the perfect system.

Just my two cents...

Cheers,

B.

Michael O Leary

Hi Guys & Gals,

The main point that I want to make is that while we are going around in circles and arguing the same points as last year, I feel that we have to agree to disagree.

To the MMA guys (and you know who you are), I bloody agree with a lot of what you have to say. I have trained with self-defence orientated martial artists over the years who train half-arsed and during break stuff their faces in Mc Donalds, smoke their brains out after training and get so pissed that they cannot stand, let alone fight and all the time carrying a broken one pack. (I have recently lost a lot of weight and you know the saying, "Their is nothing so pure as a reformed who-re") I have ran the line on them that if you train for self-preservation then you are better looking after you diet etc, and it pisses them off.

However come on. Matt Thornton started this whole thing of comparing the worst in self-defence with the best in MMA and it has filtered down through all the affiliated training groups in Ireland. For an organisation (SBG International) that prides itself on independent thinking, a lot of the opinions here seem artifical and plagerised.

That is why I got pissed off with Vaschro. I don't mind you guys that do BJJ slagging off us SD guys. For me its a bit of a game. But over the last year some new posters have gotton onto this forum and asked about self-defence and instead of answering them in an honast way they were subjected to a baggage of psyco-babble taken straight from Matt Thornton's blog. They were either cowed into submission or left in disgust which is how I felt about some of you guys. You seem to pick apart a new posters words use it against them and then pat each other on the back. I don't know whether it is ego massaging or you are just desperate for each others peer approval.

Despite whatever point you guys are trying to make I am sure that "IF" you have a good long hard look at yourself you will realise that for a newby wanting to spend some time learning how to defend themselves, then this is a good, positive and healthy thing. For you to paint them as insecure is patronising and insulting.

So how about if someone gets on and asks about self-defence then treat them with respect and answer their questions as best you can even if it means stating that "Wing Tsun and Escrima are crap and MMA is miles better for self-defence" (How long before I am quoted on that?) If the subject does not interest you then don't say anything and don't start your psyco-babble on reasons for training. (Not with Newbies)

Vaschro, I will get back to you later and "may" give you half an apology.

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Clive

Again with the "MMA guys" thing :rolleyes: - I have changed my signature so everybody knows that I'm one of THEM.

I think avoiding bad places is good advice in general (but not for me), and I'm sure we can all agree that common sense is the cornerstone of keeping yourself safe. However bad things do happen, and if someone is interested in self defence then more power to them.

I also completely disagree with the "look after your heart etc" posters. Nobody has come on saying, "I want to live as long as possible, what MA should I train in?". People have asked about self defence/self protection ie dealing with a physical assault (from avoidance to escalation and de-escalation etc. to physical responses).

In this case I think vasch_ro hit the nail on the head with a very relevant question which revealed deeper issues at work. I think anyone who didn't ask what was clearly a younger poster why they needed to defend themselves against bigger and stronger people would be doing them a disservice. (Also I find it odd that vasch_ro is branded an MMA guy, when he is also a very dedicated karateka. As a Garda and a very level-headed poster I think his motivations are beyond reproach.)

While I disagree with Colm the poster on any number of issues, I think the response of Colm the mod on this one was bang on. The juxtaposition of the two short posts, one about defeding from bigger stronger people, then the next about not being able to change their parents was a cause for concern.
As a mod, Colm has to err on the side of caution - there are legal worries as well as everything else.

If it's a different issue, the poster can just start another thread with more details.

Colm_OReilly

A few points if I may.

MMA as a sport, yes it's for young fit people. Sport in general, for young fit competitive people. MMA as a method of training for everyone, it's very feasible. You adjust the intensity, frequency and duration.

Think of it like this. Running is a sport, with many different disciplines. Are we to say if someone can't hope to break 10 seconds in a sprint they shouldn't do any running. Or someone can't lift twice his bodyweight he shouldn't do resistance training?

The idea that you can learn effective self defence (and for this post I'm using self defence synonymously (sp?) with fighting) is ridiculous. For all the quick fixes a degree of grunt work can be done. To be slimmer, you have to take in less energy and expend more energy. For all the dietary advice, magic pills, etc it does come down to an element of grunt work.

They were either cowed into submission or left in disgust which is how I felt about some of you guys. You seem to pick apart a new posters words use it against them and then pat each other on the back. I don't know whether it is ego massaging or you are just desperate for each others peer approval.

It's amazing how well you know the collective, singular group mindset of the MMAers, Michael, it truly is.

As for the language thing, there is scarcely anything more productive. Most of your success in life comes down to your ability to interact with people. Just my 2c.

Colm