Letting a fish off the hook?

El Stuntman

I blogged about this earlier and got some interesting responses so I thought I'd ask everyone for their reaction

here's the excerpt from the blog as I can't be arsed retyping it:

"I found myself inhabiting such a location last night on an online 3/6 NL table

I was playing in an unusually agressive fashion (PFR of 33 and VPIP of 40 - look at my fancy PokerTracker talk, almost makes me sound like I know what I'm doing) and had run up my stack to about 800 from my initial 450 when a gentlemen who we will describe as "Captain Birdseye" (King of the Fish? No? Ah, feck off.) joined the table with 250. Right from the start he displayed what I can only describe as suicidal tendencies - never raising, always calling any pre-flop raise with anything and invariably losing, losing, losing...albeit he was constantly making cheery comments in the chat box which led to lots of fake 'lol', 'ul' type comments from the other players

The Captain was down about 1,000 having rebought about 4 times for odd amounts and I was up to over 1,700 when I cracked.

I told one of the biggest fishes I've ever seen to leave the table and not to play again.

The Captain thanked me, said he had 'problems' and took my advice."

My question is what would you do here?

I have no particular problem with anyone who says 'take all his money, he's an adult' and I'm still half-questioning why I didn't do this myself. In fact based on the 'never give a sucker an even break' philosophy, I screwed up here!

5starpool

It is the name of the game, especially online. I know it is no different live, but I would be more inclined to feel sympathy for guys who were guaranteed to lose live than online. I still try to take their money though.

eoghan104

I like your line here El Stuntman its a rare bit of compassion from a poker player! WP sir nh!

Brayruit

I'm the only moron so far who thinks that you did the right thing...... I really enjoy playing the game, but it would really undermine my enjoyment to see someone f***ing up like that and potentially causing serious real life problems for himself.

BTW I break even on line and am ahead in live tournaments (including reg, rakes etc) but am very far from having the ability to actually make money at it.... maybe if I relied on the game for income / supplemental income I would have a different opinion?

El Stuntman

Brayruit wrote:

maybe if I relied on the game for income / supplemental income I would have a different opinion?

a very interesting point, another boardsie raised this with me earlier

can't speak for anyone else but, in my own case, I would hope not...

Scouser in Dub

I see your point Brayruit but then if players are making a living playing poker then they shouldn't need to make money of a player who obviously has no idea how to play and has some problems

Hitman Actual

Scouser in Dub wrote:

I see your point Brayruit but then if players are making a living playing poker then they shouldn't need to make money of a player who obviously has no idea how to play and has some problems

I'd say these are exactly the players that professionals love to see in the game, tbh.

ntlbell

We're starting to get very Personal Issues/After Hoursy

Stop the madness!

GF cheated on me, I still love her...help.....

I have little spots on my willeh...what to do?

ianmc38

This is an interesting scenario. The reason for playing cash games is to win other peoples money. When I play with my friends in the casino, I'll always softplay them and never bet into them when we're hu in a pot, simply because I don't want to win their money.

I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford to lose money if I'm playing a cash game. I often wonder about the morality of taking money off regulars who I know can't afford to be losing it. At the end of the day, being a winning player involves some element of ruthlessness whereby thoughts such as those mentioned in the OP cannot alter your decision making process.

Players such as these would have no problem taking our money, so should we think any differently?

RoundTower

Let's say someone isn't as bad as the fish in Stuntman's post, but is still a losing player. Let's say he loses $10/hr at $1-$2, other guy loses $100/hr. Is it OK to play with him? If not you can't make any money at this game.

If you say it's OK to play with this guy, but you can't play with the guy who is really losing a fortune. Is it OK then to play the same guy at $10-$20 where he is losing $100/hr? How can you make a distinction here?

valor

I would just keep taking his money and telling him hes playing well but getting unlucky

Ste05

LOL @ NTL...

And in relation to the OP. I take him down, all the way down to Chinatown...

Killme00

Personally i think you did a very nice thing. I wonder what the reaction was from the other players at the table.

Brayruit

valor wrote:

I would just keep taking his money and telling him hes playing well but getting unlucky

That's what all de buuks recommend alright... I'd find it hard to do, but doesn't mean it's wrong.... like a bookie taking money from a serial loser on the horses...

ntlbell

Blue peter badge for you sir...

Brayruit

ntlbell wrote:

Blue peter badge for you sir...

lmfao

Doc Farrell

Developing a conscience are we?

I try not to soft play anyone at anytime, especially people I like. Because I like a lot of people and it isn't in the nature of my game to go handy on people I like, it'll only leave a few to try to make a profit off.

however I've told plenty of people plenty of times to get up and leave. People I like and players who are better than me but are steaming. I was given the same advice by someone two months ago and am glad that he had the decency and balls to say it. Coz u sure don't want to be patronised when you're steaming, which is what it sounds like.


when you lose the ability to feel sympathy for losing players then it's time to worry what you're doing with your life.

and there's a huge difference between showing a pinch of sympathy now and then and trying to maintain a sense of compassion all the time. One can show compassion to better players who take your money but certainly not sympathy!

play as hard as you can all the time but if it stops you behaving or speaking without courage or decency then, no matter how much money you win, you have succeeded in turning yourself into a fully fledged loser.

just take a look at tony g!

The Sheriff 101

Well if he wasnt loosing so much id encourage but in this case fair play to u
made easier by the fact u were up money:D

the guy obv has a problem.
good point about needing it if i was barely making ends meat i would be encouraging him

De Deraco

captains username please?

BrokenArrows

i suppose its a situation we would have to find outselves in before anyone could say what they would do.

Ive seen players dump buyin after buyin but i would not say anything because i know they are winning players and are just on a bit of tilt or bad luck what ever you want to call it.

But id say if i saw some noob who clearly didnt know what he was doing start throwing large ammounts of buyins away id probably say something.

spectre

I have to say, I really don't believe the poll results, 60-40 sounds way off to me. I would've thought that the vast majority of players would pillage and plunder this gent for everything he has.

I have never, nor ever will I tell another player to stop giving away their money, particularly online. If they're going to give it away, then it may as well be to me as anyone else. Live poker is unquestionably different in this sense, due to the omnipresent personalities around the table, as opposed to the mechanical grind of the internet.

Poker is a game with an inherent presence of preditors and prey and must be played as such. Perhaps I'm mistaken but I don't believe that the whole 40% are voting as they would truly act.

pok3rplaya

valor wrote:

I would just keep taking his money and telling him hes playing well but getting unlucky

Me too.

Though one time I had a kid beg me in the chat for about 20mins to transfer a bunch of cash that I took back to him. That made me feel like **** and in the end I just disabled his chat.

sendic

kill em all and let god sort em out

vill@in

I have to say, firstly interesting poll. Thanks for posting. I voted that i'd try to warm him off. Im always bein given out to by my folks who dont approve of online gambling. An old friend of our family managed to develop an addiction to online poker and got himself seriously into trouble. So it makes you wonder how and where the money you're winning is coming from.

I think thats why, personally speaking, I could never play poker professionally, as I dont have the 'killer' gambling instinct. If you ask any top pro, Im sure one of the golden maxims of play is take the money anyway you can get it. Sure Sam Farha felt bad cracking Greensteins AA in High Stakes Poker with KK but he wasn't gonna give it back, was he?

Not like the kid in Pokerplaya's post. Man that'd be hard havin some1 beg you for their money back. I outta remember that the next time I lose a big pot in the Fitz...

fuzzbox

pok3rplaya wrote:

Me too.

Though one time I had a kid beg me in the chat for about 20mins to transfer a bunch of cash that I took back to him. That made me feel like **** and in the end I just disabled his chat.

Thats too funny.

I love your fix .

eggie

I would agree with your morals (after taking a few quid of course) but if they continue to play after being warned then theres nothing u can do about it.

Poker can be addictive and its idiots who cant play thinking they can get one big one to get them out that give the game a bad rep. Its not like backing a horse at 100/1 and walking away with a quick fix (which they wont), its a long term game. You need to know how to play to win. And even then u can still lose.

People like that need professional help, and firstly to admit to themselves what they are doing wrong; ur warning will last until the weekend and they are back again giving it to someone else. Its the people close to them who spot these things and direct them away from it that changes their way of thinking, your honest words at the table (as good as they may sound at the time) have no long term affect.

However, I would also give the same advice (if i was lucky enough to meet someone who played worse than me:D ), the damage they can to to their personal lives is more important than a few quid imo.

eggie

De Deraco wrote:

captains username please?

lmfao

mewso

If I know someone has a problem I'll tell them if necessary but only if I know they have a problem, lives being damaged etc. In the example from the OP under no circumstances would I warn him off. I don't know him, how rich/poor he is etc. and, you can safely bet as Dave has pointed out, that every time you sit at a table there is someone there who is losing alot of money be it over an hour or a series of months. You just can't start looking out for everyone. Stop playing poker now if you are going to feel remorse for losing players. You are playing against them every day and it is THE ONLY way you are winning. Your winnings are not coming out of a vacuum.

Hitman Actual

pok3rplaya wrote:

Though one time I had a kid beg me in the chat for about 20mins to transfer a bunch of cash that I took back to him. That made me feel like **** and in the end I just disabled his chat.

LOL, use that in your signature.

Although I do feel bad for the kid.

ocallagh

I used to have mixed feelings on this one.. but some advice on this board showed me the dark side!

The guy in this post lost a few thousand... too bad. He shouldn't be playing poker but it is his decision and it is NOT up to us to stop him. He'll find a way to loose that money one way or another. I don't see the poker sites stepping in to stop him. I've seen on sharkscope one guy down 90k sterling. Do you think his poker site tried to stop him from playing??? No - he's still playing, they want his rake.

Most players will lose an amount that will hurt them, but will not financially cripple them. It will be a good lesson for them and I don't mind taking money from these guys. 99% would do (and have done) it to me..

The really chronic losers who lose a serious amount of money require professional help. What you or others say to them will do very little to help them. They'll lose until they can't lose any more! I don't like it but seeming as someone is going to get their money it may as well be you. If you feel really bad about that then donate 20% of your poker winnings to Gamblers Anonymous. That 20% will do more good than you telling the idiot to leave the table.

The only time I won't take money off someone is if they are visibly insane or unconcious from booze.

DocO

i have to agree with o call on this, although the "nice guy" inside would like to think i wouldnt take his dosh, the honest fact is that i probably would, all things considered. El Stuntman it was a very decent thing to do, but as with all gamblers who have problems all you did was prolong him losing that money. Even if he listens to your advice he will invariably log back on the next day or next week and do his dosh to sum1 else, that unfortunately is the gambler in him which unless he seeks help himself wont go away, no matter how many times you advise him to stop playing.

delanec8

ocallagh wrote:

The only time I won't take money off someone is if they are visibly insane or unconcious from booze.

Ah, so essentially i could be freerolling.:D

Ste05

pok3rplaya wrote:

Though one time I had a kid beg me in the chat for about 20mins to transfer a bunch of cash that I took back to him. That made me feel like **** and in the end I just disabled his chat.

This has to be my favourite post on boards in ages.... I ABSOLUTELY love your solution.

I feel just fine taking money off anyone playing Poker against me. They're sitting there trying to take my money and I'm just returning the favour. If I happen to be better than them, or get better cards than them, then so be it. I feel 0 remorse for any of them, if they have a problem, anything I say or do will have no effect on them whatsoever, all I do is try to quicken their fall down the slippery slope, so in fact your helping these guys by taking as much money as you possibly can....

(This is on-line - don't play Live enough to have had this particular dilemna - but I can't see how my thoughts would change. However, I'd agree with OCallagh's line RE: Drunk or Insane players)

And anyway at the end of the day, everyone who plays Poker on-line is filthy rich so why worry about a few drops in the pond and I think I need their money more than they do... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Having said all that, I've never actually had a similar dilemna in all my time playing Poker, I wonder is that cos I really don't give a sh1t and can't remember or I've been unlucky to not have played with these fellas??

BigDragon

Either you or the fish takes up knitting. Only solution to a gambling problem or a conscience problem.

EDIT: Just reread my post. I am serious about this, not trying to be flippant. Poker, by definition is about winning at the tables. Boards Poker is by definition about helping your community be better off the tables. In future tell them to read boards. In all honesty I would take every cent my best friends here have on the table if given the chance and then spend the next week discussing every street of every hand.

Teaching improves the teachers game but when it boils down to it i'll take a students money. I cpould give you a list of posters on here that have helped my game and they continue to try and take my chips. Its a zero sum game (excluding rake) so we need the fish/uneducated. Dont get me wrong, I never confuse manners with morals at the table. If it bothers anybody morally then take up knitting.

Lazare

First off, fair play El Stunt, a very honourable thing to do. I would like to say I'd do the same but honestly, I think I'd milk him for every penny.
After all, if it wasn't for poor players making poor decisions and losing cash, the game would be stagnant. There is a moral issue alright, but losing players are an important part of poker (online especially), it's a ruthless game.
I LOVE IT!!!!

pok3rplaya

lenny_leonard wrote:

LOL, use that in your signature.

Although I do feel bad for the kid.

Good idea. Sigged!

Doc Farrell

is there anything that can be added to what o'callaghan and big dragon have said here? i don't think so. it's a cruel game but that doesn't mean you are or have to become a cruel winner.

pok3rplaya

I'd play 12 year olds for their confirmation money if I could find them.

nicryan

ntlbell wrote:

I have little spots on my willeh...what to do?

you should probably talk to a medical professional about that....

Nic

ocallagh

pok3rplaya wrote:

I'd play 12 year olds for their confirmation money if I could find them.

lmao - surely someone brave enough sigs this

nicryan

well ok then...

-Nic

ollyk1

If you have a problem with people going in over their head and losing money and reloading and continuing to donate well then don't play cash games.

If your intention is to win money in a cash game then why ask this question?

If you are a smoker I feel especially good about taking your money because I may be helping to save your life, if you are an asshole and the sort who might drink and drive I feel especially good about taking your money because you may drink less if you have no cash and I might have just saved someones life. You never know the full story or the results of taking someones money at a poker table you can make assumptions based on your point of view and experience but thats all they are - assumptions.

What if the captain is some sort of stoner monkey and instead of whiling away the hours losing a few quid online he shoots up and overdoses how do you feel then huh??

P.S. If you want to at least hang onto your own money then don't get into a cash game with BigD. That f**ker pretends like he's going to give you advice but I'm paying and paying and still he hasn't told me one thing to help me make some money.

redzerdrog

pok3rplaya wrote:

I'd play 12 year olds for their confirmation money if I could find them.

I tried this and lost my whole bankroll:o

BigDragon

ollyk1 wrote:

P.S. If you want to at least hang onto your own money then don't get into a cash game with BigD. That f**ker pretends like he's going to give you advice but I'm paying and paying and still he hasn't told me one thing to help me make some money.

Heah... The last cash game I played with you I did OK and you cleaned up. I do remember teaching a boardster how to play AAxx post flop in PLO....It was an expensive lesson

Jaden

Scenario 1.
You need a liver transplant, or you're going to die soon.

A boy racer mangles himself in a 3:00am single vehicle accident, and leaves a perfectly healthy, donatable liver.

Do you refuse to take it on some moral principle?

Scenario 2.
Would you refuse to accept a lottery win, simply becasue there are 1000's of people who can't really afford to do the lottery, but do anyway?

Iago

the only time I'm warning him off is if he's a close friend and I know he's got a problem. Other than that I'm going to play the cards and hands as they fall.

People need to be responsible for themselves, society has changed to such an extent that everybody wants to blame something else for their failings.

I had bad luck, I was emotionally unstable, not thinking straight, the game is rigged, I got in over my head. I thought we were playing for play money.

If you're at a table with me then you have the money to play there, if you don't have that money then I'm doing you a favour by taking more than you can afford to lose, maybe you'll go and educate yourself on the game or drop down to the levels you should be playing at.

Mind you I'm rubbish so the odds are that you're taking my money and wondering whether I should give up the game or not

El Stuntman

Killme00 wrote:

Personally i think you did a very nice thing. I wonder what the reaction was from the other players at the table.

unpleasant

which really made me think I had done the right thing

El Stuntman

BrokenArrows wrote:

But id say if i saw some noob who clearly didnt know what he was doing start throwing large ammounts of buyins away id probably say something.

To provide some context:

He called all-in bets pre-flop with 72, 84 and Q3 vs AA KK and AK for over $250 each time.

All within the space of 15 minutes, the table was just queueing up to get a hand and bust him ( I did it twice so please don't think of me as an angel). It was only when he reloaded for the 5th time that I snapped

El Stuntman

Doc Farrell wrote:

play as hard as you can all the time but if it stops you behaving or speaking without courage or decency then, no matter how much money you win, you have succeeded in turning yourself into a fully fledged loser.

just take a look at tony g!

well said Doc

Jesus, if I ever thought I was anything like Tony G, I'd jump in the Liffey wearing concrete shoes

actually most pro players don't really seem like role models that you'd want your kids to emulate. The only one I admire as a person (as divorced from poker skills) is Greenstein

Hellmuth - twat. Our current world champ - knob jockey. Tony G!! The list goes on...even the 'great' Doyle milked Stu Ungar for all his card winnings with sport betting and golf challenges

Waylander

El Stuntman wrote:

well said Doc

Jesus, if I ever thought I was anything like Tony G, I'd jump in the Liffey wearing concrete shoes

actually most pro players don't really seem like role models that you'd want your kids to emulate. The only one I admire as a preson (as divorced form poker skills) is Greenstein

Hellmuth - twat. Our current world champ - knob jockey. Tony G!! The list goes on...even the 'great' Doyle milked Stu Ungar for all his card winnings with sport betting and golf challenges

Bit harsh on Doyle Brunson there I think. Its not like Stu Unger was a novice or anything.

delanec8

El Stuntman wrote:

even the 'great' Doyle milked Stu Ungar for all his card winnings with sport betting and golf challenges

Probably added a couple of years onto Ungar's life so. Im sure greenstein would have done the same