The Energy Depot - Solo Radiators

alred

Does anyone have any experience with a Cork based company called The Energy Depot http://www.lowenergy.ie/solo.html. They are marketing a sytem using an air source heat pump with hydronic radiators.

I am currently in the process of building a house and will be installing a heat pump of some type. Despite extensive research I am still not a lot closer to establish what type of system is the best - air/ground/vertical loop etc and what company to go with.

One of the problems that I have with most of the companies is that they only supply the heat pump (some may argue that this is good) and don't offer a complete package. The Energy Depot seem to offer a good package but I can't seem to find anyone who has experience with their product.

Do-more

Alred - I don't have the solos myself, but I know two people with them and both say they are excellent. One is a new build with ground source heat pump and the other is an old (hard to heat) house with a standard oil boiler.

I priced a heatpump and solo's system 4 years ago but my budget wouldn't stretch at the time, I am kicking myself now. What wasn't explained to me at the time was that the solo's would work with any heat source, oil or gas boiler, heatpump or wood pellet boiler. If I had known I would have installed the solo's and used them with my standard oil boiler and at least I would have had more flexibility to change heat source in the future. I believe that they work very well with condensing boilers.

As for the airsource heat pump, it is not as efficient as a ground source, but the argument goes that the cost of the heatpump togeather with the much lower installation costs (no ground works etc.) means that although your long term running costs will be higher you will have a much quicker payback on your investment, the jury is still out on that one.

AFAIK lowenergy have only recently started to sell the airsource, so finding someone with this type of installation will be difficult. Also I have just checked the SEI site and Low energy doesn't seem to have grant approval for it's heat pump yet, you could ask them about this.


My advice would be to talk to an energy consultant for their opinions on this, unfortunately the heat pump business in Ireland seems to attract a share of "snake oil" salesmen. I was looking at one companies website recently and they were quoting a COP of 6.6 when the heat pump manufacturer's website was quoting a COP of 3 for the same pump, go figure that one out....

ircoha

Know zip about heatpumps except the key is the quality of the well if u go that route.

Know lots about the solo standard, have used them for years, great, great product.

A few observations:
[ again on the standard one, I have not used the other new fancy ones I see on the site]

The on board stat has a range of 16 to 25.

IMHO, 16 is a tad high for keeping a room aired.

Also the stat can be a bit difficult to adjust/use.

The idea is that once the room reaches the required temp the fan switches off but the hot water stays circulating so what I do in all my designs where I use them is to wire in a wall stat beside the light switch. [OK the purists will say no stat near the door etc.. just bear with me]

The wall stat can be as fancy as u like, digi etc

In the simple model it is a bog standard stat and the owner can set it at say 14 to keep the room aired.
This is also easy to adjust and when u come hope u can just adjust it upwards.

The rolls royce model on the wall stat is a combined stat/timer that controls the boiler and with the 1 or more hour boost buttons they work a dream. They also have frost settings etc

I find the systemlink units very expensive so I make up my own and use 11 pin relays to sort the electrics.[ The purist elec engs/ sparks will tell you it can be done with 9 pin but I find the 11 pin easy to use]

The other idea is to use a bank of switches to allow me control each room from a central point.

I admit that some of this may not be ROI friendly but once installed the only question I am asked is by neighbours who want the same.

I belive that people are less conncerned about initial capital costs but are really focussed on running costs.

One thing I forgot to mention is that in a new build I sometimes bring each rad back to a central point.

Also watch the run length from the HW cylider to all ur hot taps.

ps I always use condensing boilers where at all possible.

Please pm me if u need any more

ps the solos are made in skibbeeren i think

alred

Thanks for the replies. I visited The Energy Depot stand at one of the building shows and was impressed by them. They "talk the talk" but is this just a sales pitch or are their products genuinely as good as they say. As I said before, I like the fact that they offer a total package as to me that means they take responsibility for the whole lot.

Does anyone have any figures on operating costs of a Solo system driven off an air source heat pump. How does it compare to say normal rads or UFH.

riccol1966

sorry for the late update on this thread - I too want to know more about the solo rads, for example, if retro fitting can they just replace standard rads. If so what about power points, surely that is the first issue. And then there's the additional power consumption. If I have 10 rads and replace these with 10 solos running at 60watts each, thats actually a high overhead in electricity terms: e.g. 6 hours per day usage adds up to an extra EUR200 per year to run them!

Any feedback from people who actually have solos in their house appreciated?

ircoha

riccol1996
I have them in my house and put them into a number of houses and all my clients are v happy.

With respect, your post is somewhere between a rant and a flame.


"If so what about power points,surely that is the first issue" : why?

The first question is why would you want to replace the existing 10?:
On a whim?

The second questions is what capacity is required and will a single solo do in each case.

The next question is relocating the pipes.
For example, my last client had 10 foot runtals in a concreted, tiled, floor.

Power points were the least of my concerns.

riccol1966

Dear ircoha, I apologise if my thread appeared to be a rant. That was not my intention at all, I am genuinely trying to get more information on the product as part of my renewable heating investigtion. I emailed the company back in early december and have not had any reply since then (over a month!!), and that's why I posted on the forum.

Surely the power consumption is a genuine question, why do you take this as a form of attack? In quantifying this heating solution against others we all want to know "the bottom line". So if you have installed them, please tell me what they cost to run?

Are you saying I would not need to replace all radiators? That would not be obvious to anyone unless it was explained why. For example, if you were to combine the SOLOS with an ASHP, surely the rads left in the system would need to be replaced as they would not get hot enough and just end up cooling down the circulating water further?

No rants, just lots of questions which I would love to hear the answers to!

ircoha

I dont know what they cost to run in terms of electricity as all my clients have the system described elswhere in this thread where thay have a bank of switches controlling each rad on a room by room basis, with a wall stat as a minimum, some have individual room stat/timers.

I dont know how long each room is on on a daily basis or at what temperature, both which will effect the power consumption.
The other point is that the current used by the solos is a function of the temp differential at any point: eg if the stat is at 21 and the room is at 15 it will work harder than if the stat is at 21 and the room at 20.

I am the first one to admit that the capital cost of my design is higher than normal and I have not engaged in ROI calculations. My clients are v happy that they have the level of control they have over the heating on a room by room basis from a central control panel. This process also allows them use a much smaller boiler which will be more efficient as it will be working harder.

My house has installed rad /hw demand of 160,000 btu's- my self-condensing, self modulationg boiler is 80,000 and it works fine

Good looks, ease of use, small footprint etc are all part of the decision process, it is not all down to the cost.

For clients with kids/grand kids the solos are not a risk.

I hope this helps: in passing what does ASHP stand for?

riccol1966

thanks for the feedback, sorry for the acronym: ASHP = air source heat pump. The reason it was mentioned is that the company themselves are promoting this as an integrated approach to use with the SOLOs. And that's why I mentioned replacing all the rads, as standard rads would typically not be suitable with an air source heat pump. As I said, having not heard from them I am still gathering the necessary info from other sources such as this.

Thanks

Do-more

riccol1966 wrote:

thanks for the feedback, sorry for the acronym: ASHP = air source heat pump. The reason it was mentioned is that the company themselves are promoting this as an integrated approach to use with the SOLOs. And that's why I mentioned replacing all the rads, as standard rads would typically not be suitable with an air source heat pump. As I said, having not heard from them I am still gathering the necessary info from other sources such as this.

Thanks

Your correct in saying that you will need to replace all your rads with Solo's as the ASHP will only produce hot water at 45-50 deg C so rads will not work.

As for the electrical energy consumption, the 60W is the energy consumption of the impellor(s) in the solo at full load. Assuming you have a reasonably well insulated house the average energy consumption is likely to be more like 5-10watts.

Energy Depot have a demo house down in Cork (city I think) and I am hoping to pay them a visit in the next few weeks to get the full lowdown. I've been interested in them ever since I came across them for my own build 5 years ago, I didn't fit them as I didn't get a proper explanation at the time of how they could also be used with oil or gas boilers, I thought that I would have to have the GSHP and it was over budget for me.

The new design is certainly a leap forward over the original square boxes!

AFAIK ircoha, the new ones are also wireless enabled, which gives added possibilities for control systems.

ben04

Am torn between using air source or gas condensing boiler with solo radiators.
The energy depot say it's best to use heat pump with them but am wondering if you had decided what to go for?

ircoha

ben04 wrote:

Am torn between using air source or gas condensing boiler with solo radiators.
The energy depot say it's best to use heat pump with them but am wondering if you had decided what to go for?

I have not looked at ASHP in terms of capital cost and running costs versus a self modulating condensing gas boiler but I dont belive the ASHPs are 'there yet'.

I would go with gas for now and put in the plumbing now for connecting in other stuff later.

ben04

Damn but I hate when someones right!
Went for the gas condensing boiler with solo rads. Happy with choice as air source would have been just swapping to electricty and costs would have spiraled.
Also installing a ZENEX gas saver unit (re-uses heat from boiler to save 10-30% of gas use - hopefully!). All in all happy so far but will let you know how it all works in a while!
Will keep you posted.

whowantstwoknow

Hi

Getting an extension on the house and will need to upgrade the gass boiler. The upgrade hasnt been size yet, but could anyone recommend a brand to consider especially if I add in this gas saver which may only work on specific models.

Thanks

Mike

ircoha

madunphy wrote:

Hi

Getting an extension on the house and will need to upgrade the gass boiler. The upgrade hasnt been size yet, but could anyone recommend a brand to consider especially if I add in this gas saver which may only work on specific models.

Thanks

Mike

You may not need to upgrade the boiler as by using some fairly simple controls you may have enough capacity if u stagger the demand, for example have the hot water heated in the morning before the rads. Depending on the headcount and occupancy of the house you may have enough.
IMO most boilers are over sized.
Colm

Houseowner

I have had a very bad experience with this company. I purchased an airex ventilation system for my new house and I have had a number of problems with it since. I never received an instruction manual [even though I was promised same numerous times [by Jim]. I have issues with noise, with condensate leakage and they did not connect the air intake to the outside [the intake air is taken from within my attic] - I did not discover this until recently. I would hope that nobody else would not suffer my experiences. I probably will approach their parent company for instruction manuals and will have to make alterations to the system at my expense. Despite all of this, I feel lucky that I did not go with their Solo rads and air source heat pumps; if they could not install something as simple as the ventilation system.

Has anybody else had similar problems with this company?

ircoha

Houseowner: sorry to hear of this: just looking at aiex website and could not see exactly what you got installed: can u post a link please.
I would be taking a good few pics of the work before u 'undo' any of the shoddy work.

I agree with you re a supply and fit on the other stuff: whatever about the heat pumps the Solo rads are good gear. IMO.

riccol1966

Was it actually lowenergy who installed the heating ventilation? If I recall, they began by doing the solos and then progressed on to the other systems - I wonder if you were perhaps a bit of a guinea pig for them and they are not yet doing enough installations to see all the issues with such a system ?

Regardless, I would expect any supplier to give me appropriate documentation and ensure everything is working exactly as specified. Any problems keep phoning them and don't let up until you are completely satisfied, including the threat of legal action if you have run out of all other options. And if, in the end, you do end up having to sort it out yourself after all other avenues are closed to you, document all the time you spend, and send the head office an invoice, via your solicitor, for the amount of time and materials you have expended in order to rectify any issues. You are well within your rights to do so.

Richard.