[Letter] Second City Transport

Navan Junction

Irish Times, 17.08.06

Madam, - We Corkonians should rejoice for our compatriots in Dublin as we gaze in awe and wonder at their state-of-the-art transport system.

In addition to a modern bus fleet, they have the Dart, an expanding Luas network with brand new trams and talk of a metro. Here in Cork we have clapped-out, overcrowded buses and traffic gridlock - caused by selfish motorists who insist on bringing their cars into the city centre.

If anyone doubts my word, let him try taking the No 8 bus westbound from the Courthouse to Bishopstown any weekday around 5pm. For how much longer must we in the South allow the politicians to treat us as a third-world banana republic? - Yours, etc,

SÉAMUS O'HEA, Bruach na Laoi Apartments, Union Quay, Cork.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Navan Junction wrote:

Irish Times, 17.08.06

Madam, - We Corkonians should rejoice for our compatriots in Dublin as we gaze in awe and wonder at their state-of-the-art transport system.

In addition to a modern bus fleet, they have the Dart, an expanding Luas network with brand new trams and talk of a metro. Here in Cork we have clapped-out, overcrowded buses and traffic gridlock - caused by selfish motorists who insist on bringing their cars into the city centre.

If anyone doubts my word, let him try taking the No 8 bus westbound from the Courthouse to Bishopstown any weekday around 5pm. For how much longer must we in the South allow the politicians to treat us as a third-world banana republic? - Yours, etc,

SÉAMUS O'HEA, Bruach na Laoi Apartments, Union Quay, Cork.

lazy f@#ker.... why didnt he walk.

bringitdown

If they gaze in awe at the Dublin 'transportation system' they must have a heart attack when they hit Berlin or similar ...

Aidan1

Heart attack? No, just a mild case of kleptomania

"I wonder if they'd miss the odd train?"

Seriously, I moved from Cork to Dublin in 2001. The biggest difference in terms of public transport? Buses, hundreds of em! You could actually rely on the bus system, it was frequent (though not regular), relatively fast, and the buses were clean enough that you could actually sit down. None of those things applied to public transport in Cork.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Aidan1 wrote:

Heart attack? No, just a mild case of kleptomania

"I wonder if they'd miss the odd train?"

Seriously, I moved from Cork to Dublin in 2001. The biggest difference in terms of public transport? Buses, hundreds of em! You could actually rely on the bus system, it was frequent (though not regular), relatively fast, and the buses were clean enough that you could actually sit down. None of those things applied to public transport in Cork.

well it seem a lot has changed in 5 years my friend... pretty good now and fairly tidy...

but what pisses me of about the cork-dublin thing is, where are our heroin addicts and our gangland murders... it just not fair

i want to be able to walk down pana and see kids sniffing glue and shooting up just like on o connell st.

when it comes to gang land, addicts and scumbags we want parity with dublin.

bringitdown

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

well it seem a lot has changed in 5 years my friend... pretty good now and fairly tidy...

but what pisses me of about the cork-dublin thing is, where are our heroin addicts and our gangland murders... it just not fair

i want to be able to walk down pana and see kids sniffing glue and shooting up just like on o connell st.

when it comes to gang land, addicts and scumbags we want parity with dublin.

ohhh they're a crowd of whores in Dublin ... :rolleyes:

dudara

The bus service has hugely deteriorated in Cork recently. I actually went and bought a car 2 months ago because I just couldn't take it any more.

Raskolnikov

Although it has some way to go yet, public transport within Dublin Country and some of it's surroundings is decent and relatively very cheap. When I lived in Maynooth (which isn't even in Dublin), I could get unlimited travel on the excellent commuter train service and bus/Luas for only €26 a week. I could take the express service in the morning and be in Dublin city centre within 25 minutes. Should I want to go to the shops I could simply hop on a Luas to Dundrum. A few pints up in Howth at the weekend? All included in that €26. That sum would barely put petrol in your car for 4-5 days travel.

Contrast this to the commute from the Cork suburb where I live now? Living half the distance from the city centre as I was before, nearly twice the journey time (at schooltime, you can triple this) costing me 1 and 1/2 times what I paid up in Maynooth. Absolutely hopeless.

Take a ride in the Dart or commuter trains in the morning, full up of blue collar and white collar workers. Contrast this to Cork, the same blue collar and white collar are driving into work, you almost never see them on public transport (unless they're Johnny Foreigners working in the Airport Business Park). It's an indictment as to how bad public transport is in Cork.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Raskolnikov wrote:

Take a ride in the Dart or commuter trains in the morning, full up of blue collar and white collar workers. Contrast this to Cork, the same blue collar and white collar are driving into work, you almost never see them on public transport (unless they're Johnny Foreigners working in the Airport Business Park). It's an indictment as to how bad public transport is in Cork.

erm...no the reason for this is simply because one can still drive around Cork without huge delays... where as dublin one has no choice, get public transport or stay at home...

and also cork doesnt have a dart so maybe that's why you don't see people traveling on it in cork...


remember... dublin pop is 1,122,821 little wee cork is 447,830 so do take that into account.

Raskolnikov

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

erm...no the reason for this is simply because one can still drive around Cork without huge delays

You can get around Dublin just fine as long as it isn't during 7:30-9:30 in the mornings and 4:00-6:00 in the evenings. Cork city and it's suburbs are the same in this regard. Have you experienced the Kinsale roundabout, Dunkettle roundabout, Sarsfield Road, Douglas Village, Western Road, etc, etc during the above times? An absolute nightmare.

MarkoP11

The Cork Cobh line is a little hidden gem (Cork Mallow will be every 30 minutes next year), it has a better service than some Dublin commuter lines, has a Sunday service we don't even manage that between Kildare and Dublin and by all accounts the fares are low compared to Dublin but the monthly options are not there

To be fair to Cork City/County CC they have got the planning end fairly sorted out, Irish Rail are playing along with Midleton are looking at 8 million suburban journeys by 2016 in Cork the problem is Bus Eireann they of course in the late 1980's had new buses parked in a shed unused since they didn't need them plently of need just no effort, Dublin Bus get a hard time but they are actually fairly decent, step one is to get a route review done and then split Bus Eireann to hand over local services to separate company

bk

I have to agree, I also moved from Cork to Dublin in 2002 and I was shocked at how good DB was in comparison to Cork.

I have to admit that the quality of the buses in Cork have improved, but major problems remain.

1) Not enough buses/drivers. Buses on some very busy routes are infrequent (one every half hour) or so and rarely turn up on time, it is not unusual to have to wait 60 minutes for a bus and then two arrive.

In comparison my bus route here in Dublin has a bus every 7 minutes. It means I have a very short wait.

2) No extra buses to be put on at busy times. So buses end up being packed and people end up being left behind at bus stops.

In comparison DB seem to often put on extra buses at peak times.

3) Buses spend all day parked in the city center, it really isn't unusual to spend 30 minutes sitting on the bus while the driver goes out for tea, etc.

Basically the Cork bus service is like what DB used to be like 10 years ago. They have a strong union and are very resistant to any change. They need a good firm kick up the back side.

As for Dart/Luas/Metro I don't think Cork really needs that, Cork is a relatively small city in comparison to Dublin and it actually has good roads that aren't too congested.

All Cork really needs is a big overhaul of the bus service and the new commuter rail sevices are a good idea.

Chris_533976

Cork - Cobh railway is the only decent bit of public transport down here.

But when you get to the station in Cork you have to either walk to the centre (20 minutes) or wait for the aforementioned crappy buses.

Corks transport is a nightmare. The new flyover has helped, but the Sarsfield and Bandon roundabouts are now a disaster area. Thanks NRA for pulling funding.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Raskolnikov wrote:

You can get around Dublin just fine as long as it isn't during 7:30-9:30 in the mornings and 4:00-6:00 in the evenings. Cork city and it's suburbs are the same in this regard. Have you experienced the Kinsale roundabout, Dunkettle roundabout, Sarsfield Road, Douglas Village, Western Road, etc, etc during the above times? An absolute nightmare.

erm no its not... i have worked in dublin and the traffic around these times is much worse that the traffic in cork around the same times...
also unlike dublin, there are plenty of ways around these particular busy spots...

Chris_533976 wrote:

But when you get to the station in Cork you have to either walk to the centre (20 minutes) or wait for the aforementioned crappy buses.

20 minutes... if i walked from the station for twenty minutes i would expect to be out by UCC. the city center is about a 5-7 min walk for the station...

the reason its much faster to walk id because of the one way system... a bus has to go all around the world, while walking its cross the river.

dudara

Chris_533976 wrote:

Corks transport is a nightmare. The new flyover has helped, but the Sarsfield and Bandon roundabouts are now a disaster area. Thanks NRA for pulling funding.

That's true. The new flyover makes the Kinsale road a doodle, only then to find yourself backed up at the Sarsfield and Bandon Road roundabouts.

On an aside, I was driving the flyover yesterday which has a 60 kph speed limit, and I was pretty much the only person obeying it. (and I was doing 65ish). Everyone else just barreling past.

JesusWasGay

Navan Junction wrote:

Irish Times, 17.08.06

Madam, - We Corkonians should rejoice for our compatriots in Dublin as we gaze in awe and wonder at their state-of-the-art transport system.

In addition to a modern bus fleet, they have the Dart, an expanding Luas network with brand new trams and talk of a metro. Here in Cork we have clapped-out, overcrowded buses and traffic gridlock - caused by selfish motorists who insist on bringing their cars into the city centre.

If anyone doubts my word, let him try taking the No 8 bus westbound from the Courthouse to Bishopstown any weekday around 5pm. For how much longer must we in the South allow the politicians to treat us as a third-world banana republic? - Yours, etc,

SÉAMUS O'HEA, Bruach na Laoi Apartments, Union Quay, Cork.

Cork people will always complain and begrudge.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

JesusWasGay wrote:

Cork people will always complain and begrudge.

you'll have to try harder that that my friend...

Raskolnikov

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

also unlike dublin, there are plenty of ways around these particular busy spots...

So you're saying all these people in Douglas Village, Sarsfield Road and Bandon Road, etc sitting in traffic because they enjoy it?

Raskolnikov

MarkoP11 wrote:

the problem is Bus Eireann they of course in the late 1980's had new buses parked in a shed unused since they didn't need them plently of need just no effort, Dublin Bus get a hard time but they are actually fairly decent, step one is to get a route review done and then split Bus Eireann to hand over local services to separate company

Agree completely. Cork's suburbs and hinterland has grown massively in the last decade. We've seen a very slight increase in services and other than the Northern and Southern Orbital routes, there have been no new routes. The tightly packed industrial estates in Ringaskiddy, Little Island, etc have absolutely nothing in public transport serving them. Others like the Airport Business Park have the bare minimal.

Raskolnikov

bk wrote:

2) No extra buses to be put on at busy times. So buses end up being packed and people end up being left behind at bus stops.

This is endemic with Bus Eireann in Cork, especially in the Suburban routes to Ballincollig and Carrigaline where an intra-city bus (with as few as 25 seats) maybe have another 40 people standing. Standing up in stuffy and extreme heat for over an hour at times, is it little wonder that people drive.

invincibleirish

im someone who has had to put up with bus eireann in cork for several years, as both a resident of cork city and of kinsale which is 20 miles from cork and is a commuter town. in my time ive had regular experience of the 5,8 & 14 in the city and the 249 in the county. the most complimentry thing i can say of my time using these services is that they usually got me to where/near i wanted to goeventually.ive dealt with buses running late(20mins late),very late (40 mins to an hour) and to where ive given up and walked/got a spin/got a taxi only to then see the bus come up behind me.

ive had the usual other things happen,buses breaking down, irate drivers,having to stand for an hour jammed in with other people drenched with sweat as well the other usual public transport stories involving scobes,urine,mad people etc.

ive put up with the limited times buses run, 11:20 pm is when city buses finish,10pm is the last bus to kinsale(7pm & 6pm on weekends)which as a young man in his prime has meant social activities have had to be curtailed and/or exorbitant taxi fares have had to be paid.

it annoyed me all so much that having spent what must been months of my life if tallied up at various bus stops in all the elements waiting for a non existant scheduled service to arrive i did what any rational person would do: i learned to drive and bought a car.

traffic around the city and to and from the city is ****, and petrol is expensive, but id rather be stuck in traffic in the city in my air conditioned car with those problems then on a bus simple as.

what pisses me off is that Dublin is light years ahead of Cork when it comes to public transport, im well aware of Dublins transport problems too but the fact is we can only be envious of the capitals current public transport infrastructure.

i didnt want to drive a car, id love to b able to have a decent public transport system in Cork that i can rely on to get me where i want to go at a time i like and at a reasonable price but its not happening bus eireann doesnt do any of these things, ive spent time in london and its a dream with its buses and tube, Cork isnt London it doesnt need an underground and 10,000 double decker buses.

maybe 150 extra buses for city and commuter routes and a light railway line in the southern burbs into the city,that along with a much better timetable and the already available mallow/cobh and soon midleton lines and corks problems are solved,no more gridlock, fat chance of that happening,even with new roads built/to be built its gonna bring more cars into city quicker so despite all the hoohah over the opening of the flyover corks traffic gridlock is gonna get worse not better,and bus eireann are gonna get worse.

Chris_533976

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

20 minutes... if i walked from the station for twenty minutes i would expect to be out by UCC. the city center is about a 5-7 min walk for the station...

the reason its much faster to walk id because of the one way system... a bus has to go all around the world, while walking its cross the river.

Granted, I could walk it in the same time, but older people couldnt. A dedicated shuttle bus to the city centre, timed to coincide with train arrivals, is needed. Not an extension of the dodgy number 5, which appears whenever it can get through the traffic, and wont wait if theres a train due in 10 mins after it arrives.

dudara

Chris_533976 wrote:

A dedicated shuttle bus to the city centre, timed to coincide with train arrivals, is needed. Not an extension of the dodgy number 5, which appears whenever it can get through the traffic, and wont wait if theres a train due in 10 mins after it arrives.

Plus they've upped the fare for the extended run to the train station, despite the fact that there are other longer city bus routes with the cheaper fare

Schuhart

invincibleirish wrote:

what pisses me off is that Dublin is light years ahead of Cork when it comes to public transport, im well aware of Dublins transport problems too but the fact is we can only be envious of the capitals current public transport infrastructure.

I don't anyone has a problem with the substance of what you're saying. Its just the whole 'Dublin gets everything' kind of spin which seems to cloud the reality that Dublin only receives public investment long after a need has become critical - partly because of the begruding cries that accompanies any such investment.

The factual position is that, traditionally, cities in Ireland have not received the investment they needed. Two Luas lines and commuter services run on the same rails as intercity services doesn't constitute an amazingly generous level of provision. But Cork City can equally claim to be victims of the same mentality.

Rather than looking at Dublin's public transport as the focus of your ire, you should be considering some of the resources devoted elsewhere. Does upgrading the Sligo rail service really do as much for us as Cork commuter services?

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Raskolnikov wrote:

So you're saying all these people in Douglas Village, Sarsfield Road and Bandon Road, etc sitting in traffic because they enjoy it?

i doubt that, i would presume its because they don't know the quick routes around these areas...

bk

Schuhart wrote:

I don't anyone has a problem with the substance of what you're saying. Its just the whole 'Dublin gets everything' kind of spin which seems to cloud the reality that Dublin only receives public investment long after a need has become critical - partly because of the begruding cries that accompanies any such investment.

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I don't think anyone in Cork begrudges Dublin a good public transport system. It definitely needs it.

I think what the OP was saying and I have to agree, is that Dublins bus service is far superior to Cork. Cork's overall transport picture isn't too bad, typically it has a good to very good road infrastructure, with commuting by car not being too bad (far better then Dublin anyway).

But Cork does have a major problem with it's public transport, or lack thereof, in particular the bad state of the bus service. If you don't have a car it is very hard to get around Cork.

Most Corkonians aren't looking for a Luas or anything like that (the Mallow/Cobh/Midleton commuter services are just making good and clever use of mostly existing infrastructure), instead they are just looking for more investment in the bus service and more importantly a good kick up Cork's BE unions to push them into the 21st century (hell the 20th Century would even do).

It really wouldn't take and cost much to vastly improve Cork's public transport situation.

Schuhart

bk wrote:

I think what the OP was saying and I have to agree, is that Dublins bus service is far superior to Cork. Cork's overall transport picture isn't too bad, typically it has a good to very good road infrastructure, with commuting by car not being too bad (far better then Dublin anyway).

You'll understand that I have no problem with the thrust of what you are saying. Its just the use of Dublin as a touchstone that's a problem - i.e. what 'pisses' the OP off is that Dublin is perceived to be ahead. He also references London, while admitting there isn't really a comparison between London and Cork.

You know the next sentence is the one that causes the problem. Is there any reason to compare Cork to Dublin? And is there any reason for believing that Dublin has received any preferential treatment? Now, perhaps, if you visited a French city of Cork's size you'd find better public transport. In fact, without even looking, I'll just take that on faith. But if you compare Dublin to any comparable city elsewhere in Europe, its public transport just does not measure up at all. I think that essential reality is missing from the OP.

I'm not suggesting that Corkmen have smaller mickeys so they can't have a Luas. The actual point I'm making is we're squandered our transport resources on things like running empty rail carriages between Limerick and Waterford, and trundling three trains a day from Dublin to Westport stopping at every village in Mayo on the way for no reason.

The cities, on the other hand, have been neglected because of this rural fixation. That essential reality is ignored by statements talking about Dublin being light years ahead of anyone.