Layin Down Cowboys Pre Flop ...

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Played a sat 4 the Macau last night in the Card Club In Clonmel .... and we were down to 6 players with each player startin with 15k chips and 10 at the stt .... I was big blind with 26k and 3rd in chips to 41k ..... As i said i was on the big blind at 500/1k and look down to see my mates KK in my hand and i look at the chip leader who is a solid player .... Player after two flat calls before him ,moves all in for 18k and next to act is Chip leader who re raises all in for 41k ... Dilemma time 9 players out of ten wouldn hv called straight away but i had to stand up ... and think ... 4 mins later i say fold holdin onto my cards and the next two players take there time as well , believe it or not the next player has 66 and last player to act has JJ ... who also both fold

Player who moved all in turns up A/K diamonds and as i suspected the chip leader turns up AA ... flop comes with an A and a 6 which would hv been absolute carnage .... I just felt so good turnin over my KK after foldin to the astonished chip leader who stood up over and shook my hand sayin "amazin how did u fold that hand " Had to laugh at the player who moved all in to AA kk ..with A/k

I lost the battle heads up to the chip leader in the end ...... But i had a ticket already so it was not as bad to lose just fely good puttin down the Kings to AA...

Neill
BSP

De Deraco

good fold fair play i would of called cause he looks likes he is isolating the all in player with maybe 1010 or jj maybe even QQ.

Why the hell did he reraise?

Hectorjelly

why did you fold?

califano

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote:

the astonished chip leader stood up and shook my hand sayin "amazin how did u fold that hand "

What an idiot this guy was to do that.

imalegend

i think this is a great lay down but i am bad at poker as the ace q thread goes and i think you will be slated for this lay down as you got great odds to call no matter what your man had.i think its a great lay down anyways.

well done!

ArmaniJeanss

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote:

and as i suspected the chip leader turns up AA ...

This is the key sentence here - you didnt have any wonderful read, just some gut suspicion. I get these 'gut instincts' a lot when I have QQ or KK and someone is giving a lot of action pre-flop. However most of the time I call, I'm ahead and 5 seconds later I've forgotten about my suspicions and all I remember is my KK held up against AK or JJ, no big deal.
And of course sometimes my suspicions are correct, it is AA and I lose and I berate myself because I 'just knew I he had AA'.
Generally you should call here unless you have far more than a suspicion, you will be ahead so often (I won't bring maths into it cause it annoys iamlegend) that anything else will be a huge long term error.
Good Luck.
AJs

BIG-SLICK-POKER

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

This is the key sentence here - you didnt have any wonderful read, just some gut suspicion. I get these 'gut instincts' a lot when I have QQ or KK and someone is giving a lot of action pre-flop. However most of the time I call, I'm ahead and 5 seconds later I've forgotten about my suspicions and all I remember is my KK held up against AK or JJ, no big deal.
And of course sometimes my suspicions are correct, it is AA and I lose and I berate myself because I 'just knew I he had AA'.
Generally you should call here unless you have far more than a suspicion, you will be ahead so often (I won't bring maths into it cause it annoys iamlegend) that anything else will be a huge long term error.
Good Luck.
AJs

I Actually did say at the table he has aces before he turned them up .... so i had it right in my own head ...And when he did turn it over it was even nicer .....

valor

This is just results orientated thinking

Bandana boy

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote:

I Actually did say at the table he has aces before he turned them up .... so i had it right in my own head ...And when he did turn it over it was even nicer .....

well i would hope when you laid down KK you thought he had AA

fuzzbox

This is a bad laydown ... but whats worse is that you held onto your cards, affecting the decisions of the other players.

This probably resulted in Mr. JJ laying down also. Thus, you probably cost yourself money with this play.

Just cos he had AA this time, doesnt mean you made a good play.

imalegend

fuzz i can see how u are saying in the long run call if you want to make money but he was in a position there and then and folded and it ended up being a good fold how can you not commend his play??

De Deraco

because the opponents play and the type of game it was didn't warrant a fold.
unless the guy has the biggest tell of all time then maybe ok. but the way the villain played the hand does most definately not warrant a fold and the majority of the time its a bad fold

Marq

sigh

fuzzbox

imalegend wrote:

fuzz i can see how u are saying in the long run call if you want to make money but he was in a position there and then and folded and it ended up being a good fold how can you not commend his play??

Because I dont let the actual results cloud the situation.

You have 26k, blinds are 500/1000, 2 limpers, dude moves in for 18, CL moves in for 41 .... my chips are in the pot.

CL can have AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK here a lot. You are a big fave against his range. The other guy prolly has a similar range.

If 18k turns over AK and 41k turns over AK ... then how do you feel?

imalegend

i have been in the position a few times i have done the right thing and called with qq against 2 ace kings and lost every time....maybe its just bad experience that i wouldnt call this or lack of experience even.i just play defencive poker and try and pick spots where i will have a huge advantage to take all of some1's chips.

De Deraco

its not called defencive poker its called weak tight passive poker

fuzzbox

imalegend wrote:

i have been in the position a few times i have done the right thing and called with qq against 2 ace kings and lost every time....maybe its just bad experience that i wouldnt call this or lack of experience even.i just play defencive poker and try and pick spots where i will have a huge advantage to take all of some1's chips.

So, because you lost a few times before, you now like to fold?

How much of an advantage do you need?

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 26.1545 % 24.58% 01.58% { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 24.5749 % 23.46% 01.11% { TT+, AJs+, AQo+ }
Hand 3: 49.2706 % 47.65% 01.62% { KK }


in the main pot (56k)


And in the side (16k)

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 34.0291 % 32.32% 01.71% { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 65.9709 % 64.26% 01.71% { KK }

Marq

you're right. the statistics show that you should never play QQ against two Aks

Hitman Actual

Marq wrote:

you're right. the statistics show that you should never play QQ against two Aks

I concur.

imalegend

ok...im happy to push with kk but there is situations where i fold kk qq thats all im trying 2 explain..dont get me wrong i understand the advantage you have over a couple of hundread of hands but i dont like getting involved in a multi way big pot in a tourney with just a pair...i will do it in a cash game all day but not in a tournament.

eoghan104

lenny_leonard wrote:

I concur.

I dont think thats what hes sayin........

Anyway i would be in the pot with KK in a heartbeat. I know this time the fold looks good but all the times he shows any other hand you look like a fool. im never gettin away from KK preflop anytime and if opponent has AA cest la vie! I think its a bad fold OP sorry!

Come on imalegend lets be honest your not folding KK very often if ever!

imalegend

99.9 per cent of the time i call with kk....an example of a time i fold is......im on the button on the final table of a tourney....3 all ins before me and i see kk.i fold..and i believe its an easy fold no matter what odds im getting...this may seem weak and stupid play but if i have a stack to play with i will fold and pick a different spot to try and beat these players.and with 3 allins you will be losing one maybe 2 players.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

fuzzbox wrote:

Because I dont let the actual results cloud the situation.

You have 26k, blinds are 500/1000, 2 limpers, dude moves in for 18, CL moves in for 41 .... my chips are in the pot.

CL can have AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK here a lot. You are a big fave against his range. The other guy prolly has a similar range.

If 18k turns over AK and 41k turns over AK ... then how do you feel?

IF HE TURNS OVER AK ...THATS IF ... its HE TURNED OVER AA.... NOT IF ... If u cant lay down big hands then u aint a gd player .....
I felt it was a perfect lay down ...

Hectorjelly

imalegend wrote:

ok...im happy to push with kk but there is situations where i fold kk qq thats all im trying 2 explain..dont get me wrong i understand the advantage you have over a couple of hundread of hands but i dont like getting involved in a multi way big pot in a tourney with just a pair...i will do it in a cash game all day but not in a tournament.

I think this has to be a gimmick account

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Bandana boy wrote:

well i would hope when you laid down KK you thought he had AA

Yes of course i was calling the 1st all in no prob but chip leader i just got a feelin he had the bullets thats all

Hitman Actual

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think this has to be a gimmick account

It's starting to look that way alright... a polite troll, possibly!

Hectorjelly

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote:

IF HE TURNS OVER AK ...THATS IF ... its HE TURNED OVER AA.... NOT IF ... If u cant lay down big hands then u aint a gd player .....
I felt it was a perfect lay down ...

The point your missing is that its impossible to put the CL on AA from the action as you descibed. Someone goes all in and then he pushes over the top. Do you think the CL is folding QQ/JJ/AK to the all in? If AA is the only hand he can have there then folding is reasnable, but I would never put someone on such a tight range, and they would have to be a pretty bad player to have such a tight range.

imalegend

no and i couldnt give a f~uck what u think 2 be honest im sick and tired of listening 2 **** from the lot of yous...i have magically won some tournaments for the record and do well online so i obvisoly can play some sort of poker....so the lots of you chumps can go and pull ur own toggers!!

last u will hear from me!;)

Marq

imalegend wrote:

ok...im happy to push with kk but there is situations where i fold kk qq thats all im trying 2 explain..dont get me wrong i understand the advantage you have over a couple of hundread of hands but i dont like getting involved in a multi way big pot in a tourney with just a pair...i will do it in a cash game all day but not in a tournament.

Do they play hold'em in your regular cash games?

De Deraco

it was amaru all along,

Hectorjelly

imalegend wrote:

no and i couldnt give a f~uck what u think 2 be honest im sick and tired of listening 2 **** from the lot of yous...i have magically won some tournaments for the record and do well online so i obvisoly can play some sort of poker....so the lots of you chumps can go and pull ur own toggers!!

last u will hear from me!;)

Not that polite!


Anyway imalegend, people have been disagreeing with you because what you have posted has been wrong. The points you have made have been made countless times before, and dont make you a bad or losing player. Noone is trying to offend you, and I think it would be a shame to just leave here because ppl are disagreeing with you. Your much more likely to learn when ppl are disagreeing with you, even if you dont fully accept what they say.

eoghan104

Hectorjelly wrote:

Not that polite!


Anyway imalegend, people have been disagreeing with you because what you have posted has been wrong. The points you have made have been made countless times before, and dont make you a bad or losing player. Noone is trying to offend you, and I think it would be a shame to just leave here because ppl are disagreeing with you. Your much more likely to learn when ppl are disagreeing with you, even if you dont fully accept what they say.

Now your starting to be polite? imalegends post there was rude but he has been getting slated and called a donk and that he needs all the look in the world and that crap!!! im not posting on this site an awfully long time either but i think the responses hes been getting havent been very nice to a new member of the forum. is that how anyone who says something wrong should be treated?

Marq

I'm confused now.

RoundTower

If the chip leader is crap, not "a solid player" but a very specific type of passive moron, then you can definitely fold here. You didn't include this in your read so your post just sounds like a no content brag.

cardshark202

I had a similiar situation with KK except I called, shorty had AK, chip leader had JJ, flop comes AJ4 and I'm out. Should I have folded?

jimbling

From what some of ye are saying I assume you never ever fold KK preflop. If you do what are the occasions that you do? Now, I don't think I would have folded in this spot.. not with 6 players left.. and how many tickets? I assume 2.

Interesing:
I had an argument with a guy at a poker table last thursday night. Himself and another guy were on about folding KK late in tournaments (and when its for your tournament life).
One of the comments was that even if he saw AK he would be happy to have made the laydown as he was still only a 5/2 fav.
I thought this absolutely shocking and didnt mind saying so. I was then informed that he knew a hell of a lot more about poker than me. And in case I didnt know who he was he informed me.
Anyone know Tom McEvoy? He plays on Tribeca as KobiKat*. He's a 4 time bracelet winner, and almost 2mill in tournament earnings.





*This is now my claim to fame .... I won a few hundred bucks from a bracelet winner... yipee.

cardshark202

I hate the players who get it in then ask: you got an ace? I assume my A8 is good then, presuming he must have KQ or something, then they turn up KK. Feels like being slowrolled. Thats when the board come 23K54.

Bandana boy

jimbling wrote:

From what some of ye are saying I assume you never ever fold KK preflop. If you do what are the occasions that you do?
*This is now my claim to fame .... I won a few hundred bucks from a bracelet winner... yipee.

Generally this late in the tournament the stacks are to shallow to get an idea if KK can be behind.
In a cash game it is a lot easier when there can be 400-500 BB in play then you might have a much better idea

The fact is if our friend made a lay down that worked out to be correct but based on info that he shared 1 would expect his opponent to have anything from JJ-AA and AK maybe even AQ AJ so with that in mind he is giving up a great edge a large % of the time and this lay down with the facts supplied is wrong

Now saying that I am giving the benefit of the doubt that there was some ear twiddling or something going on which you havent shared and I will say great read wp

Hitman Actual

jimbling wrote:

From what some of ye are saying I assume you never ever fold KK preflop. If you do what are the occasions that you do? Now, I don't think I would have folded in this spot.. not with 6 players left.. and how many tickets? I assume 2.

Interesing:
I had an argument with a guy at a poker table last thursday night. Himself and another guy were on about folding KK late in tournaments (and when its for your tournament life).
One of the comments was that even if he saw AK he would be happy to have made the laydown as he was still only a 5/2 fav.
I thought this absolutely shocking and didnt mind saying so. I was then informed that he knew a hell of a lot more about poker than me. And in case I didnt know who he was he informed me.
Anyone know Tom McEvoy? He plays on Tribeca as KobiKat*. He's a 4 time bracelet winner, and almost 2mill in tournament earnings.
*This is now my claim to fame .... I won a few hundred bucks from a bracelet winner... yipee.

Crazy with the AK:KK fold. McEvoy must really rate himself if he thinks he's good enough to fold a 70% favourite. Maybe he's talking about a prize structure jump where it would be the right thing to do?

You should post that on 2+2 MTT forum to see the reaction. I'd love to see what they think of it over there.

Folding KK in general? I did it once in a live cash game where I knew the only hand a certain opponent was pushing pre-flop was AA. At the time I found it an easy fold, but I'd really struggle to do it now. (if that makes sense).

jimbling

Bandana boy wrote:

Generally this late in the tournament the stacks are to shallow to get an idea if KK can be behind.
In a cash game it is a lot easier when there can be 400-500 BB in play then you might have a much better idea

The fact is if our friend made a lay down that worked out to be correct but based on info that he shared 1 would expect his opponent to have anything from JJ-AA and AK maybe even AQ AJ so with that in mind he is giving up a great edge a large % of the time and this lay down with the facts supplied is wrong

Now saying that I am giving the benefit of the doubt that there was some ear twiddling or something going on which you havent shared and I will say great read wp

I know what your saying.. and I did say in my post I wouldn't have laid KK down in this situation. But I reckon I have been on boards for over a year, and I don't recall a single time where people agreed laying KK down was the right move. Not one.

hmmm, strange that you mention that about cash games, because one of the points these guys were making was that they would never lay it down in a cash game, but do all the time in tournaments. I assume this is due to the fact you can only lose your buy in in the cash game, but could lose a vast amount in a tournament (depending on what tournament it is).
i.e. folding KK has more to do with your position, your chips, your ability to play without risking all your chips, the prize money involved and how close you are too it, than the cards you think your opponent has.

I don't think im good enough for any of that, so Ill call every time:D

jimbling

lenny_leonard wrote:

Crazy with the AK:KK fold. McEvoy must really rate himself if he thinks he's good enough to fold a 70% favourite.

just to clear it up.. it wasn't actually Tom that said that.. it was the other guy. But he did back him up.

And I think thats exactly what it is. Okay, you are 70% fav, which means you are about to get knocked out 30% of the time. Why risk all your chips, when you can pass up the oppertunity and use your skills to win the tournament.

It's the old adage of "live to fight another day".
I imagine all the maths enthusiest will dislike this method.. but how many would agree that perfect poker is to wina tournament without ever risking all your chips.

It is the same idea of folding AA pre-flop really, just a little easier.

Hitman Actual

jimbling wrote:

just to clear it up.. it wasn't actually Tom that said that.. it was the other guy. But he did back him up.

And I think thats exactly what it is. Okay, you are 70% fav, which means you are about to get knocked out 30% of the time. Why risk all your chips, when you can pass up the oppertunity and use your skills to win the tournament.

It's the old adage of "live to fight another day".
I imagine all the maths enthusiest will dislike this method.. but how many would agree that perfect poker is to wina tournament without ever risking all your chips.

It is the same idea of folding AA pre-flop really, just a little easier.

It seems to be "Tournament Survival" week on Boards.

Folding a 70% favourite: most players here dont play in any tournaments (i.e. deep-stacked with long levels) where you could ever seriously consider folding a 70% favourite. Or a 60% favourite. Or... well, I'll stop there because I think the 50-60% range provides a lot of discussion even amongst the "maths" players.

Edit: BTW I'm not saying you fold a 70% fav in a deepstacked game either.

And maybe the "perfect" poker tournament means consistently making the correct technical (+EV) plays, and being able to consistently apply those edges. It is still poker, after all.

imalegend

according 2 idiots on this site u have 2 call with a 70 per cent advantage.they dont understand the fact that you may have to fold this advantage in order to win a tournament..i said fold and wait for a different spot but got blasted with how much of advantage do you want!!!i might even push my chips in when i have less of an advantage e.g. i have aks vs qq....but i might prefer this spot to do it in a tourney..its about timing etc...and i also prefer to be the one pushing to make the other guy/gal make the decision.

Hectorjelly

to be fair thats one of the funniest posts Ive ever seen

imalegend

simple way 2 solve it...put your cash where your mouth is...im finished here...same user name on ppp at 2/4 3/6 u will find me and ill play any of yous for any amount heads up!!!if i am a "****ING RETARD" as so many of yous have called me put your money up kids!!!

Marq

Headsup for bankrolls?

I smell a troll.

DeadParrot

In fairness to the guy he has been getting quite a hammering.
Tight passive poker is how he's been described (i think that was the nicest way ) and its easy to see how he's getting a bit miffed.
I'm going to open myself to a flame war here but I can see why big slick folded.
On one hand its bad play from the CL, flat calling would have been the better option. On the other, with so many people behind him left to act, perhaps he wanted a caller, All in looks like he was isolating the pot, wanting HU with the AK lad. A decent player will recognise this and if he was a premium(ish) hand, perhaps will be compelled to call. Big slick probably saved the JJ lad his stack by holding onto his cards, maybe even the 66 guy. Which was imo a terrible thing to do. Muck them and if you are right, You still feel deadly, if you are wrong you can keep it to yourself
Math wise, maybe a bad fold, ok a bad fold. But I can still see how he made his desicion

By the way......I'm still a relative newbie

califano

cardshark202 wrote:

I hate the players who get it in then ask: you got an ace? I assume my A8 is good then, presuming he must have KQ or something, then they turn up KK. Feels like being slowrolled.

I know exactlt what you mean!. Terrble sh!t it is to witness this.Its like he wanted to have such a lock hand that seeing a single ace has greatly dissapointed him.

jem

I have done it where two apsolute rocks went all in before me, thought a long long time and folded , one had kk the other aa, drawing dead except for a hail mary or 4 in a row.

mdwexford

anyone who passes as a 70% fav is not playing to win the tournament
i dont care if the money is going up or whatever, you cannot pass up that advantage, no matter how good you are

accensi0n

imalegend wrote:

simple way 2 solve it...put your cash where your mouth is...im finished here...same user name on ppp at 2/4 3/6 u will find me and ill play any of yous for any amount heads up!!!if i am a "****ING RETARD" as so many of yous have called me put your money up kids!!!

I think thats the third time you've said that in this thread.....