muslim boyfriend

mantrouble

I am in a serious relationship at the moment and both of us are deeply in love. It has not been a problem so far in the relationship but he is a muslim and I am a catholic. He does not practice and from what I gather his family dont seem very religious.

If we were to get married, does this mean that i have to convert to islam. Do our children have to grow up according to islam? I do not want to be left in a terrible situation, say 10 years down the line. I have no intention in converting.

please help, should i end this now before its too late?

C_Breeze

heres a crazy suggestion, how about he convertes from that delightful religion instead of you having to convert. And if children are gonna be raised in a roman ctaholic country they should be raised as catholics.

Hobbes

C_Breeze your new here so I am going to cut you some slack. Read the forum charter and stick to it.

To the OP, this has been discussed here before and the answer is no you do not need to convert to Islam to marry him. However there are things you should be aware of. more on the discussion here..

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054954443

T-1111111111111

C_Breeze wrote:

heres a crazy suggestion, how about he convertes from that delightful religion instead of you having to convert. And if children are gonna be raised in a roman ctaholic country they should be raised as catholics.

Why is that exactly?!
They should be raised as Muslims. Period.
Can I say that the pope should also become a Muslim?
Is that allowed to say?
I mean, if posts like the above one can be tolerated that I see no problems with my post and nobody else should.

And just because I'm curious - how do you define a roman catholic country?
Just because the majority are either cahtolics (or maybe not, maybe the majority are atheists, I don't have the stats) they you are free to say that?

BTW, the country law is not the catholic law at the same time, so this is simply not a catholic country. Another period.

Hobbes

ease up there. I Don't want this degrading into a flame war.

T-1111111111111

Hobbes wrote:

ease up there. I Don't want this degrading into a flame war.

si. agreed. people shud watch what they say.

Medina

Mantrouble,
I am in your situation. Or was, mine has moved a long a bit since then.

I had 'no intention' of converting either having been raised by deeply spiritual catholic parents and having a good faith myself.

However I am now considering converting but its a long process of consideration and my mind is nowhere near made up.

At least you have the advantage if it can be called that , that your man is not a practising Muslim. Mine is very much a practising Muslim and believe me, there are difficulties!

I have had to agree to the children being Muslim, he wouldn't allow it any other way so I had to choose him and his way or else lose him. You may say its selfish of him, but to be fair, Muslims believe they are committing a huge sin if they allow their children to be any other religion as the biggest sin for them is to associate a partner with God and thats what they view Christians as doing with Jesus and the Holy Spirit (I have already discussed the three=1 theory many times on the Christian board).

Christians on the other hand are not told they are condemned to hell if their children are not Christians/Catholic...at least not that I know of.

The Catholic church will not recognise a marriage between our faiths unless we agree to sign a document stating that children will be Christians. We didn't want to lie so I have had to forgo the 'white wedding' at the church. Your man may not be bothered...but we warned..one day he might become a serious Muslim.

Also if you intend to stay together, do you intend to stay in this country or another country where Islam is not the legal system? I would advise it for your own peace of mind...not that I have experience but I've read lots of books by Muslim women.

My advice would be to get to know Islam thoroughly, there are lots of rules you wouldn't know. Thats what I'm doing. Or PM me and we can exchange our experiences, I've been looking to talk to someone else in my position.

Also from personal experience, if he becomes serious there are a lot of things you might not like, so how much is he worth to you? I thought it would be easy, but it hasn't been, we've been through a lot but still together, trying to find a common understanding and tolerance of each other's beliefs. I make most of the sacrifices though without a doubt in terms of religious issues.

All my family and friends are against us getting married. So I haven't told them that we are married according to Islamic law just not legally. And they would flip if I became a Muslim. Life eh?

the_new_mr

Seems Medina and Hobbes have already given excellent answers.

I pray that everything works out for the best for both Medina and Mantrouble and their respective partners.

aman

I have been married to my Muslim husband for over 18 years - I was brought up Catholic but don't really practise my faith. My husband would believe strongly in his faith, he prays every morning but would not attend mosque on a regular basis. His family who live abroad are extremely religious.
We had two wedding ceremonies - one in the mosque & one in the catholic church. You do not have to sign any document promising to bring your children up as catholics - the church asks for an undertaking that you will do your best to bring them up as catholics but not at the expense of your marriage.
We have two children & the children are being brought up under no particular faith. We have both made an agreement that we will both do our best to educate them in all the major religions of this world & then leave it to their own judgement as to what faith (if any) they will follow.
For me the key is discussion & compromise - don't leave it until it is too late as you said yourself you do not want to be put in an awkward position years down the line. It's really important you work these things out sooner rather than later - but it can work even if you do not convert.

Good luck

Flying

mantrouble wrote:

I am in a serious relationship at the moment and both of us are deeply in love. It has not been a problem so far in the relationship but he is a muslim and I am a catholic. He does not practice and from what I gather his family dont seem very religious.

If we were to get married, does this mean that i have to convert to islam. Do our children have to grow up according to islam? I do not want to be left in a terrible situation, say 10 years down the line. I have no intention in converting.

please help, should i end this now before its too late?

Let him convert to being a christian, you should not convert for anyone,stick to your guns and from past experiences a woman marrying a muslim is not a good idea, my girlfriend was married to a muslim and she was very heavily oppressed until I met her and got rid of the "shackles" she had.

He was Bosnian Muslim and to be honest a Fantic

Rev Hellfire

Its a non-issue if he is a non-practising muslim.

If you are a practising catholic then you do have a duty to raise your children in the christian family. Merdina is actually wrong about the catholic churches stance on the matter. Its is a sin and a serious one at that.

Then again as had been stated before if your partner does practice islam, they too have duty under there religion also to raise their children has muslims. Bit of a deadlock there.

It may be worth your while taking this post (a new one) to the christian forum as well and getting the view from the other camp so to speak.

T-1111111111111

Flying wrote:

Let him convert to being a christian, you should not convert for anyone,stick to your guns and from past experiences a woman marrying a muslim is not a good idea, my girlfriend was married to a muslim and she was very heavily oppressed until I met her and got rid of the "shackles" she had.

He was Bosnian Muslim and to be honest a Fantic

Why are u suggesting such a thing? Is that not against the rules of the forum?
Here is some material for u and for others who want to hear the truth.

And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leurders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrongdoers.

2:124


And when We made the House (at Mecca) a resort for mankind and a sanctuary, (saying): Take as your place of worship the place where Abraham stood (to pray). And We imposed a duty upon Abraham and Ishmael, (saying): Purify My house for those who go around and those who meditate therein and those who bow down and prostrate themselves (in worship).

2:125


And when Abraham prayed: My Lord! Make this a region of security and bestow upon its people fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day, He answered: As for him who disbelieveth, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the doom of fire a hapless journey's end!

2:126


And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House, (Abraham prayed): Our Lord! Accept from us (this duty). Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Nearer, the Knower.

2:127


Our Lord! And make us submissive unto Thee and of our seed a nation submissive unto Thee, and show us our ways of worship, and relent toward us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Relenting, the Merciful.

2:128


Our Lord! And raise up in their midst a messenger from among them who shall recite unto them Thy revelations, and shall instruct them in the Scripture and in wisdom and shall make them grow. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Mighty, Wise.

2:129


And who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself? Verily We chose him in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he is among the righteous.

2:130


When his Lord said unto him: Surrender! he said: I have surrendered to the Lord of the Worlds.

2:131


The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

2:132


Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.

2:133


Those are a people who have passed away. Theirs is that which they earned, and yours is that which ye earn. And ye will not be asked of what they used to do.

2:134


And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters.

2:135


Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto Us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob. and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, add that which the Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

2:136


And if they believe in the like of that which ye believe, then are they rightly guided. But if they turn away, then are they in schism, and Allah will suffice thee (for defence) against them. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

Hobbes

Moving this to Spiritality forum as its covering two religons and before I start banning people.

Flying

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Why are u suggesting such a thing? Is that not against the rules of the forum?
Here is some material for u and for others who want to hear the truth.

And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leurders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrongdoers.

2:124


And when We made the House (at Mecca) a resort for mankind and a sanctuary, (saying): Take as your place of worship the place where Abraham stood (to pray). And We imposed a duty upon Abraham and Ishmael, (saying): Purify My house for those who go around and those who meditate therein and those who bow down and prostrate themselves (in worship).

2:125


And when Abraham prayed: My Lord! Make this a region of security and bestow upon its people fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day, He answered: As for him who disbelieveth, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the doom of fire a hapless journey's end!

2:126


And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House, (Abraham prayed): Our Lord! Accept from us (this duty). Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Nearer, the Knower.

2:127


Our Lord! And make us submissive unto Thee and of our seed a nation submissive unto Thee, and show us our ways of worship, and relent toward us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Relenting, the Merciful.

2:128


Our Lord! And raise up in their midst a messenger from among them who shall recite unto them Thy revelations, and shall instruct them in the Scripture and in wisdom and shall make them grow. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Mighty, Wise.

2:129


And who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself? Verily We chose him in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he is among the righteous.

2:130


When his Lord said unto him: Surrender! he said: I have surrendered to the Lord of the Worlds.

2:131


The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

2:132


Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.

2:133


Those are a people who have passed away. Theirs is that which they earned, and yours is that which ye earn. And ye will not be asked of what they used to do.

2:134


And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters.

2:135


Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto Us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob. and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, add that which the Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

2:136


And if they believe in the like of that which ye believe, then are they rightly guided. But if they turn away, then are they in schism, and Allah will suffice thee (for defence) against them. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

You think Quoting the Koran will make a difference, why is it Muslims are so hell bent on converting people to Islam, weither it be by force or other non-subtle means.

Why should a woman change her religion weither practising or Not.
Why should she change her life, her dress,be oppressed in a Christian Society by a Muslim(s) who are in the minority.

There is no such thing as a non practicing Muslim but in chrisitian a person has the choice to do so.

Muslims think it is fine to force there opinions and way of life down peoples throat, well its not and my advice to any woman is to steer clear for the sake of their own sanity and their Life.

Hobbes

Flying wrote:

Why should a woman change her religion weither practising or Not. Why should she change her life, her dress,be oppressed in a Christian Society by a Muslim(s) who are in the minority.

Please bother to read the everything before engaging mouth. If you bothered to check the woman does not have to change her religon at all. Neither does she have to change what she dresses as.

There is no such thing as a non practicing Muslim.

Actually there is.

Muslims think it is fine to force there opinions and way of life down peoples throat, well its not and my advice to any woman is to steer clear for the sake of their own sanity and their Life.

Ironically your post is the same.

esperanza

C_Breeze wrote:

heres a crazy suggestion, how about he convertes from that delightful religion instead of you having to convert. And if children are gonna be raised in a roman ctaholic country they should be raised as catholics.

In Islam, unlike in Judaism, the woman is not obliged to convert to her husband's religion. However, if you decide to have children, they have to be raised in the Muslim faith until the age of 18 when they are then free to choose their own faith. Thus, if you have a boy he will have to be circumcised and so on.

In order to marry a Muslim, a Christian woman should be chaste and practice her religion on a regular basis. But how can you prove this?

One thing about non-practicing Muslims:
They claim not to be religious until the topic of kids is raised, at which point they get fanatical about their being raised in the Muslim faith. And that is a but hypocritical, I find (obviously, I'm speaking from personal experience here).

stevenmu

Flying wrote:

Muslims think it is fine to force there opinions and way of life down peoples throat, well its not and my advice to any woman is to steer clear for the sake of their own sanity and their Life.

To be fair this was orginially started on the Islam forum, where there is only one correct way of life and the Koran is accepted as the the truth. People should be advised that on this forum there is no 'the truth' and no one right answer for everyone. People should have a quick read of the charter just to make sure they understand it.

Now, back to business. As I understand it, there's many issues at stake here. There's both the religious aspect, and the cultural aspects that normally go a long with it. Any particular Muslim may either not practise the religion and not practise the culture, may practise the religion but not the culture, may not practise the religion but will practise the culture, may practice both religion and culture but not expect others around them to do the same, or may practice both and expect others around them to do the same, with many other variations in between.

Medina and Aman provide two good contrasting scenarios showing the different ways a Muslim/Christian union can go. In Amen's case both are obviously very open to each others beliefs and respect each others beliefs a lot. They are also willing to raise their children non-denomonationally and let them choose their own path. In Medinas case, religion is already a devisive issue between them, and it seems like it always will be. While many relationships may be able to survive such a devisive issue, many other will not. It would take a lot of hard work and dedication to make such a relationship work, Medina does appear to be very dedicated to her relationship, but you have ask yourself, if you're already asking people should you end it, are you ?

Ultimately, the best person to advise you on all this is your partner himself, and his family. Ask them about all what will be expected of you and try to get an idea of how they think your future life will be.

esperanza

stevenmu wrote:

There's both the religious aspect, and the cultural aspects that normally go a long with it. Any particular Muslim may either not practise the religion and not practise the culture, may practise the religion but not the culture, may not practise the religion but will practise the culture, may practice both religion and culture but not expect others around them to do the same, or may practice both and expect others around them to do the same, with many other variations in between.

And the Christian wife is expected to respect these cultural values, such as not having alcohol in the house and not eating pork. Even if the woman has not converted to his religion, the man still has some power.

Flying

esperanza wrote:

In Islam, unlike in Judaism, the woman is not obliged to convert to her husband's religion. However, if you decide to have children, they have to be raised in the Muslim faith until the age of 18 when they are then free to choose their own faith. Thus, if you have a boy he will have to be circumcised and so on.

In order to marry a Muslim, a Christian woman should be chaste and practice her religion on a regular basis. But how can you prove this?

One thing about non-practicing Muslims:
They claim not to be religious until the topic of kids is raised, at which point they get fanatical about their being raised in the Muslim faith. And that is a but hypocritical, I find (obviously, I'm speaking from personal experience here).

I am a Jew as a matter of a fact and a woman is not obliged to convert to Juadism, unlike Islam where they clearly are, again I will state my Girlfriend was forced to convert to Islam (which she stood hard against) and subsequently left the marraige.

The Last post her also is correct, in a Muslim (male) to non-muslim marraige the woman does not have the power and also children should not be brought up as Muslims if the mother is christian unless she chooses again, I stress Islam putting more oppresive energy into marriages to oppress women.

To the Orginial Poster IMHO, get out of the relationship as misery is what is in store and there is no such thing as a non-practicing muslim they all have their alternate agenda's and it is not one of peace,compassion,love or equality.


<please try to stick to the issue at hand and keep political commentaries for somewhere else - thanks, Steve>

Hobbes

esperanza wrote:

And the Christian wife is expected to respect these cultural values, such as not having alcohol in the house and not eating pork. Even if the woman has not converted to his religion, the man still has some power.

Actually they are allowed eat pork thier husbands can't. Likewise with alcohol. However it is normally common curtesty not to have it in the house.


... Flying you have absoluty no clue what-so-ever about a womans rights in regarding marrying a muslim.

esperanza

Hobbes wrote:

Actually they are allowed eat pork thier husbands can't. Likewise with alcohol. However it is normally common curtesty not to have it in the house.

Yes, of course they are allowed! I never said they weren't (I said they were EXPECTED TO RESPECT)! Indeed, it is only out of courtesy that one should not have pork foodstuffs and alcohol in the house.

Here is my post again:
And the Christian wife is expected to respect these cultural values, such as not having alcohol in the house and not eating pork. Even if the woman has not converted to his religion, the man still has some power.

May I point out something: If the wife does choose consume goods containing pork and alcohol, then her children - who must be raised in the Muslim faith up to 18 - is showing a bad example in doing this, isn't she? Therefore, most Muslim men do actually prefer women to abstain from these out of respect. It may not be written clearly in the Qoran but it's common sense really!

(pork tastes horrible anyway!!!)

Hobbes

esperanza wrote:

Therefore, most Muslim men do actually prefer women to abstain from these out of respect. It may not be written clearly in the Qoran but it's common sense really.

Regardless it is clearly written in the Quran that he cannot force her to follow the way of Islam, even if it means she is setting a bad example (as you say) to the children.

esperanza

Flying wrote:

I am a Jew as a matter of a fact and a woman is not obliged to convert to Juadism, unlike Islam where they clearly are, again I will state my Girlfriend was forced to convert to Islam (which she stood hard against) and subsequently left the marraige.

I'd advise you check your facts, mate!

Flying wrote:

To the Orginial Poster IMHO, get out of the relationship as misery is what is in store and there is no such thing as a non-practicing muslim they all have their alternate agenda's and it is not one of peace,compassion,love or equality.

There is no more misery in interfaith marriages than there are in other marriages! Divorce is always a possibility, isn't it?

esperanza

Hobbes wrote:

Regardless it is clearly written in the Quran that he cannot force her to follow the way of Islam, even if it means she is setting a bad example (as you say) to the children.

That's all fine and good. But we all know how many different interpretations the Quran has. I also never said that he cannot force her to respect these values, but she is expected to do so. In the long run, it is a lot easier to do this than swim against the tide. Marriage does involve some degree of compromise, don't you agree? (sadly, yet again it is the woman who has to do so)

esperanza

Is Pork Forbidden to Muslims Only?

The Jews and Christians are also forbidden from eating pork. Here is a quote from the Old Testament to that effect: "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase." Deuteronomy 14:8

Many Christians believe that this verse was directed only at the Jews. But Jesus himself says during the Sermon on the Mount; "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

for more see here: http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/hh/pork.html

As for alcohol (well, we all know its dangers):
See http://www.themodernreligion.com/index2.html

InFront

Originally Posted by esperanza
One thing about non-practicing Muslims:
They claim not to be religious until the topic of kids is raised, at which point they get fanatical about their being raised in the Muslim faith. And that is a but hypocritical, I find (obviously, I'm speaking from personal experience here).

Personal experience of what? All Muslims? No. Wanting to raise the kids in Islam is not fanatical. There is an unbelievable amount of exaggeration in this thread.

I'm also speaking from personal experience, when I tell you that I have two friends whose Mothers are both Christians (Catholics?). They are just the same as any other woman who isn't married to a Muslim as far as I can see. The 2 religions seem to get along just fine in both houses and I think Muslims and Christians and Jews could learn a lot by that sort of example.

OP, I think Medina is the best person who could advise you here, all I can do as a man who is particularly crap at relationship advice is wish you and your husband a very long and happy and successful marriage. Don't listen to the cynics:)

UU

Well, my auntie's neighbour, she married a Muslim guy and it was okay at the beginning. Of course they didn't discuss children etc. then. She was raised Catholic but is moreso secular in that she doesn't care too much about religion. But her Muslim husband was clever - it was the small things he started at doing. Like buying only Hallal meat so that she wouldn't need to buy pork. She accepted. Then, he was refusing to allow her best friend who is lesbian into the house due to his opinions. The last time I saw the woman, she was wearing a headscarf. What's next? Will she be wearing the berqua? She is not a very strong person and gives in very easily. I wonder what the faith and fate of the children will be?

To be honest, I don't think a "moderate Muslim" really exists for very long in an inter-faith marriage especially when power, children, sex, dress, food, etc. become involved and two very different cultures finally clash. I'm not saying that it isn't possible but for the most I've witnessed the consequences have been dire for the most part.

stevenmu

Well I think that all most of us can do is generalise based on our limited knowledge and experiences. The fact is none of us (probably) know the OP's partner personally and can't say for sure what type of person he is or what type of Muslim he is (or will become). The best thing is for the OP to dicuss it in detail with him and his family, which she seems to have done.

de lioncourt

well... Very interesting topic.
as i grew up in KSA, although im not an Arab, i somewhat understand Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc. because i grew up in a society of mixed religions, cultures, races and nations.

One thing i can say for sure is that we do have a very negetive image of Women in Islam.

'Why should a woman convert but not a man?' is a very interesting debate and as i read in Quran, there are certain explanations that make alot of sense to me.
A muslim man can marry a christian,muslim or jew.
A msulim woman, in general, has greater rights than a man and she can not be forced to marry someone she doesnt like by anyone. just like no one should ever force anyone to convert to any religion.

to vote in, there ARE many 'non-practicing' muslims in the world. infact i have seen and met hundreds of them. Muslims who drink, sex before marriage, dance, listen to music, consume non-kosher etc.
a good girl friend of mine was a muslim and she married a non-muslim guy.
infact, it is much more common these days for muslim women to marry a non-muslim guys than we can imagine.
my really close friend who is turkish and a muslim is married to a german non-muslim guy. she does pray but believes that she should not be forced by anyone. her family supports her decission and respect it.

one thing, no one should pass a judgement or make non-sense statements unless they are educated about the subject they are discussing.

to discuss Christianity/islam/religion in general, one must educated themselves before saying things that may cause arguements and bashing.

Islam is a Peaceful religion! infact, all religions are peaceful, its the people who lack tolerance and literacy!

Hobbes and Medina made some good points.
and others too, sorry cant remember all names.

the_new_mr

Great post there de lioncourt!

Actually, this thread has been a mix of great posts with good understanding and a good number of posts where the poster is clearly ignorant of the teachings of Islam. Once again, ignorance is beating down the possibility for people to live peacefully together as different people have different understandings of other people's religions without ever bothering to check up to see if what they think is true.

It should be stressed very clearly that the actions of a specific Muslim does not necessarily reflect actions required by Islam. God (if you believe in Him) knows that we are not perfect so how can a religion be judged based on the actions of an imperfect being such as a human?

I'd like to straighten out a few points here that some people seem to be quite ignorant of. One is that forcing someone to become Muslim is completely forbidden in Islam. The famous verse:

Al-Baqara:256
"There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower."

And here's the reason for revelation for the above verse. Pagans in Mecca who may have worshipped God but also falsely worshipped idols alongside God largely favoured having boys instead of girls to the extent that they used to perform the disgusting act of burying baby girls alive!! An act completely forbidden in Islam of course.

Anyway, some of these pagans used to say to God "Oh God! If you let us have a boy, we will make him a Jew". So, what happened is that several pagan families had Jewish boys in their families. Later, when some of these pagans rejected their false worships and embraced Islam, they began to put pressure on their Jewish children to embrace Islam as well. Verse number 256 from chapter 2 was revealed protecting the decision taken by the Jewish youth showing that you cannot force someone to become a Muslim. Islam after all, like any religion, is an action of the heart.

Flying wrote:

To the Orginial Poster IMHO, get out of the relationship as misery is what is in store and there is no such thing as a non-practicing muslim they all have their alternate agenda's and it is not one of peace,compassion,love or equality.

With respect Flying, you need to read up a bit before making such blind comments with no basis at all. Your ignorance is potentially very destructive to mutual understanding. Please don't make such statements when you're not sure about them. Thanks.

Have to say also, there are a few statements here that suggest that Muslims are sly etc. A very serious implication and a most unfair one at that.

de lioncourt, your post is a great one and shows that understanding, tolerance and peace can come out a bit of knowledge and respect. There is one small thing in your post that I'd like to comment on however if I may?

de lioncourt wrote:

Muslims who drink, sex before marriage, dance, listen to music, consume non-kosher etc.

Strictly speaking, the dancing and listening to music issues are very debatable in Islam. I am of the opinion that they are both okay. Also, Islamically prepared meat is called halal (not kosher) although Muslims can eat kosher too.

I hope that the OP wasn't too confused by all the posts since. As has been said here, talking to the other half is the way forward to understanding. Let us know how things go.

de lioncourt

the_new_mr wrote:

Great post there de lioncourt!

Actually, this thread has been a mix of great posts with good understanding and a good number of posts where the poster is clearly ignorant of the teachings of Islam. Once again, ignorance is beating down the possibility for people to live peacefully together as different people have different understandings of other people's religions without ever bothering to check up to see if what they think is true.

It should be stressed very clearly that the actions of a specific Muslim does not necessarily reflect actions required by Islam. God (if you believe in Him) knows that we are not perfect so how can a religion be judged based on the actions of an imperfect being such as a human?

I'd like to straighten out a few points here that some people seem to be quite ignorant of. One is that forcing someone to become Muslim is completely forbidden in Islam. The famous verse:

Al-Baqara:256
"There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower."

And here's the reason for revelation for the above verse. Pagans in Mecca who may have worshipped God but also falsely worshipped idols alongside God largely favoured having boys instead of girls to the extent that they used to perform the disgusting act of burying baby girls alive!! An act completely forbidden in Islam of course.

Anyway, some of these pagans used to say to God "Oh God! If you let us have a boy, we will make him a Jew". So, what happened is that several pagan families had Jewish boys in their families. Later, when some of these pagans rejected their false worships and embraced Islam, they began to put pressure on their Jewish children to embrace Islam as well. Verse number 256 from chapter 2 was revealed protecting the decision taken by the Jewish youth showing that you cannot force someone to become a Muslim. Islam after all, like any religion, is an action of the heart.

With respect Flying, you need to read up a bit before making such blind comments with no basis at all. Your ignorance is potentially very destructive to mutual understanding. Please don't make such statements when you're not sure about them. Thanks.

Have to say also, there are a few statements here that suggest that Muslims are sly etc. A very serious implication and a most unfair one at that.

I am of the opinion that they are both okay. Also, Islamically prepared meat is called halal (not kosher) although Muslims can eat kosher too.

I hope that the OP wasn't too confused by all the posts since. As has been said here, talking to the other half is the way forward to understanding. Let us know how things go.

Once again, Thank you and Good post!

de lioncourt, your post is a great one and shows that understanding, tolerance and peace can come out a bit of knowledge and respect. There is one small thing in your post that I'd like to comment on however if I may?

Thanks ... Its always a pleasure to see nice broad minded people

dancing and listening to music issues are very debatable in Islam.

True! i agree! i was told by a scholar that one should believe what one reads in Koran and follow the teachings of Prophets. but if something isnt mentioned clearly in the Koran or is there any evidence of Prophet's teachings on the particular topic, then one should follow his/her heart and decide for themselves. thats one of the best things about Islam i found.
Everything is clear and ready for you to put some light on!


sorry i wasnt quite clear, what i meant by that statement was that people expect each and every muslim person to be religious and 'extremist'.... BUT muslims are PEOPLE! they might be of stronger beliefs but doesnt mean all are the same. just like all 10 of your fingers & thumbs are different from eachother, each indivisual is different from another, let them be muslims. yes, there are some people who give Islam a bad name, but like you said i would very much like to stress that a whole nation shouldnt be judged by the minority!
i was in india on vacation as a kid and came to know about a very sad fact that some women are burnt to death because of dowry, will it be fair to say that ‘Indians burn women because they don’t bring stuff from their homes when getting married’?
No, that’s judging a minority.
On Oprah, she had this Saudi Arabian girl as a guest to represent Saudi Arabia who told that she was beaten by her husband and all which created quite a stir, please note that i havent watched the show myself but read the transcripts on oprah's website. She was like saying ‘all Saudis and Muslims are cruel’ indirectly. Which again isn’t true as I found Saudi to be one of the most polite,kind and wise nations.

I’ve never heard a single case of discrimination or ‘wife beating’ in my entire life in KSA! Their government is according to Islamic laws therefore they take really quick and satisfying actions when it comes to women.

Also, Islamically prepared meat is called halal (not kosher) although Muslims can eat kosher too.

My bad i know about Halal food Thanks for correcting

GreenDoor

If my sister started to date a muslim the family would have nothing to do with her anymore.

This is a clash of cultures more than anything else. Part of Muslim culture is to force others to become Muslims by brainwashing people or by force.

What I bet won't happen is the muslim boyfriend will become a christian!

Rev Hellfire

The simple fact is there will always be others who attempt to force their opinions on others, this is true of christian's just as much as any other beliefs.
It is unfortunate that the image of Islam has been hijacked by a more fundamentalist ideology, but that does not mean the majority share that view.

Caryatnid

C_Breeze wrote:

heres a crazy suggestion, how about he convertes from that delightful religion instead of you having to convert. And if children are gonna be raised in a roman ctaholic country they should be raised as catholics.

I don't agree with the last sentence, but I do agree with the first (albeit phrased distastefully).

Mantrouble - from reading your post, I got the impression that your religion is more important to you than your boyfriend's religion is to him. Therefore, I would imagine, that he may be more likely to compromise, particularly if his family aren't religious. As far as I am aware, both Islam and Catholism have the same basic 'rule' (not sure if that's the correct term) when it comes to raising your children - you can marry someone of another faith, but must raise the children as your religion.

So on face-value, surely the argument to raise the kids as Catholics instead of Muslims is equal. Have you spoken to your boyfriend about this? You may be pleasantly surprised, and find that a compromise/solution can be easily reached. Inter-faith marriages aren't that unusual, and if both people are willing, they can work.

Good luck.

Wibbs

de lioncourt wrote:

sorry i wasnt quite clear, what i meant by that statement was that people expect each and every muslim person to be religious and 'extremist'.... BUT muslims are PEOPLE! they might be of stronger beliefs but doesnt mean all are the same. just like all 10 of your fingers & thumbs are different from eachother, each indivisual is different from another, let them be muslims.

Agreed each persons situation is different regardless.

i was in india on vacation as a kid and came to know about a very sad fact that some women are burnt to death because of dowry, will it be fair to say that ‘Indians burn women because they don’t bring stuff from their homes when getting married’?

No it would not be fair to say that all Indians are wife burners. It would be equally unfair to say that this doesn't go on with a minority and not speak of it. A balance is needed. Same thing with "islamic" honour killings. It goes on, it's not Islamic at all and needs to be rooted out.

I’ve never heard a single case of discrimination or ‘wife beating’ in my entire life in KSA! Their government is according to Islamic laws therefore they take really quick and satisfying actions when it comes to women.

No discrimination? This is where we differ in opinion. SA has a sometimes appalling record when it comes to various human rights. Discrimination against women (even when taking the Islamic view of women which would differ in many ways from the wests). Even the right to education of women came after that of men(which is against Islam). Slightly more women graduate from University there yet less than 5% of women work. A woman can't even start a business in their own name, they can't drive a car, they can't vote or even be directly involved in politics, they can't travel or go out in public without a male chaperone(family or husband) or written permission of same. The segregation of the sexes is very strong. All the while the "religious" police make sure such conditions are upheld. Now they have made some progress of late and with hopefully more to come. Their own ID cards for a start as opposed to being listed anonymously on their husbands or fathers(though she still needs the permission of a male guardian to get one). "Quick and satisfying actions" indeed.
Now I'm not surprised you haven't heard of wife beating. Wife beating occurs everywhere regardless of faith or culture, but any culture where the women are as restricted or as invisble as in SA this abuse is far more likely to go unnoticed. Put it another way, in this more open society, how many wife beaters do you know presonally? Pretty few I'd warrant, but we know it goes on. It used to go on far more when women had less of a voice here.

the_new_mr

Yes, there is a lot of discrimination against women in Saudi Arabia. It sucks the way that women are oppressed in some countries and it's wrongfully done in the name of Islam. Hopefully, the progress that has been happening will continue and continue fast God willing.

Schuhart

de lioncourt wrote:

a good girl friend of mine was a muslim and she married a non-muslim guy.
infact, it is much more common these days for muslim women to marry a non-muslim guys than we can imagine.

I sure that women raised as Muslims do marry outside the faith, and I don't doubt, like in most things, the average practitioner of the faith is miles ahead of its religious establishment in dealing with the reality of life.

But I thought that a Muslim woman was specifically barred from marrying outside the faith. Does this mean that the women you refer have left the Islamic faith, or how is this reconciled?

The extract below from a post on Islamonline.net gives some background on this.

A Muslim man can marry a Christian or Jewish woman .... There is nothing wrong, from Islam's perspective, if a woman prays, fasts, and carries her religious rituals in front of her Muslim husband. This is simply because the Muslim must show respect to other faiths.

This situation is different when it comes to the Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim man. Marriage would be considered invalid in Islam between a Muslim woman and a non-Muslim man. This would result in living in sin according to Islam since it is outside the sphere of halal (permissible) marriage.

Schuhart

Wibbs wrote:

Put it another way, in this more open society, how many wife beaters do you know presonally? Pretty few I'd warrant, but we know it goes on. It used to go on far more when women had less of a voice here.

I think you are right to stress that wife beating happens everywhere, and in secret. There’s no reason to demonise either men in general or any particular section of society for something that happens at every level in every society.

But, there has to be a but. That’s the old question of Islam establishing within marriage a power relationship that includes a husband chastising a wife.

Fine, so some sources say the wife should only be hit with a miswak or toothstick. What if hubby is buying his miswak from this guy? Can I mildly suggest people regarding a belt from one of them as symbolic are most likely people who don’t expect to be on the receiving end?

I’m not comfortable with the ready acceptance by some that because there’s a Hadith saying don’t give her a dig in the face where the neighbours will see it’s not an issue. If people really think marital violence so easy excused, and so no reason to query the power relationship it represents, all I can say is Goodbye Earl.

aman

UU wrote:

To be honest, I don't think a "moderate Muslim" really exists for very long in an inter-faith marriage especially when power, children, sex, dress, food, etc. become involved and two very different cultures finally clash.

I have been with my husband for 20 years & married to him for 18 - I know at least 5 Irish women married to Muslim men who have stayed Christian, some have Muslim children, some don't but they have all been happily married for from 6 years to over 25 years in two cases. As other posters have said generalisations are not much help to anyone & nobody on this thread knows the OP's partner except her. Compromise is definitely the key (as it is in most marriages regardless of religion).

MeditationMom

on this forum there is no 'the truth'

Love is Truth.

Love and Truth can overcome all that is not Love and Truth - like religions and ideologies, like nagging in-laws, like oppressive husbands or quarrelsome wives. Children are our teachers of Love andTruth.

How does that translate into day to day life of, for example, marrying a Muslim man if you are a western woman?

Study and practice Islam with all your heart and mind for at least five years and talk to as many Muslim women and non-Muslim women about their marriages, before you commit to a marriage of this level of challenge or your future children to a religion you don't understand. This you do out of love, not for the man or his family, but out of love for your future children. Parents need to provide a home of union, love and peace for their children, not one of discord and fighting. Mother and Father both need to be held in equal and high esteem.

Of course this could also be reversed, with the Muslim man studying intensely whatever religion you belong to. Whoever is the wiser one of the two parents will teach love, peace and kindness above all misguided religious concepts to the children, in secret. (Or you can both give up your religions and become Buddhists, Sufis, Jews, Taoists...;) )

Above all, do not underestimate your own ignorance about the level of difficulty you sign up for if marrying, leave alone marrying someone who is, or may become strong and passionate about their religion, no matter which one, but especially, if it is other than yours. Also remember you are not just marrying a man or women, but their families and cultures.

Even Atheists become zealous about "NOT" having a religion when their children start asking the questions: "Who made everything? Is there a God?What does God look like? Where do we go when we die? Where do I come from? Why are there wars? What happens if you kill someone by accident or on purpose? etc, etc." When your children ask these questions they are very serious about having a sincere conversation with you, and they would be well served if you had thought about these things and, preferably somewhat agreed with your answers as parents. These questions can break a marriage or relationship, so start asking them now. With your boyfriend you may be amazed at your level of agreement, or disagreement.
His wisdom, his ignorance or his stupidity, will help you decide. Don't ask yourself "Will I be happy or unhappy?" or "How much of this discrepancy in our upbringing can I handle?" but what will this marriage/home feel like and be like, for my children? When you start thinking as a parent you are starting to grow up enough to make a decision about marrying and who.

MeditationMom

about marrying, and whom to marry , sorry for my bad english-

IT Loser

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Why is that exactly?!
They should be raised as Muslims. Period.
Can I say that the pope should also become a Muslim?
Is that allowed to say?
I mean, if posts like the above one can be tolerated that I see no problems with my post and nobody else should.

And just because I'm curious - how do you define a roman catholic country?
Just because the majority are either cahtolics (or maybe not, maybe the majority are atheists, I don't have the stats) they you are free to say that?

BTW, the country law is not the catholic law at the same time, so this is simply not a catholic country. Another period.

I know a man from Mosul, a "Muslim" his name is Walid, he always laughs and makes fun of the fanatics, He returned to Mosul before GWII and told the people there that he had married an Irish woman and they had a family.


Their first question?

How are the children? NO

How many boys? NO

How many girls? NO

How many children? NO

How is your wife? NO


WHAT RELIGION ARE THE CHILDREN: YES.

He told them they are Christians., he was called all sorts of names, a Gafoor, etc.

IT Loser

the_new_mr wrote:

Yes, there is a lot of discrimination against women in Saudi Arabia. It sucks the way that women are oppressed in some countries and it's wrongfully done in the name of Islam. Hopefully, the progress that has been happening will continue and continue fast God willing.

Did you know that up to one fifth of the Saudi state is Roman Catholic?

That there are some 4-5 millin Christians there?

That there are 5 times as many Christians in Egypt as Muslims in Britain?

Islam tries to conceal this...but Christianity is the fastest growing religion in Egypt and Saudi!

the_new_mr

Hi IT Loser, I don't mean any offence but what are your sources for these statistics? I think you'll find that they are quite wrong.

Anyway, even though your numbers are incorrect, it doesn't really matter. Religion is not supposed to be a numbers game.

I fail to see the relevance of your last post to this thread by the way.

IT Loser

Flying wrote:

You think Quoting the Koran will make a difference, why is it Muslims are so hell bent on converting people to Islam, weither it be by force or other non-subtle means.

Why should a woman change her religion weither practising or Not.
Why should she change her life, her dress,be oppressed in a Christian Society by a Muslim(s) who are in the minority.

There is no such thing as a non practicing Muslim but in chrisitian a person has the choice to do so.

Muslims think it is fine to force there opinions and way of life down peoples throat, well its not and my advice to any woman is to steer clear for the sake of their own sanity and their Life.

"I am The Lord your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:2-3 RSV)

One of the Commandments [the 1st, in fact]...Muslims are hell bent on coversion because the female converts are the anvil from which the next generation of little Muslims will be hammered out.

Obviously, from a strictly religious viewpoint, anybody who directly disobeys the Word of God, instructed as it was unto Abraham {as Muslims keep telling you, they recognise Abraham} isn't worth a toss to any religion at all.


Conversion is a social tool. Those who convert are LOST forever, and plainly, in a religious sense, are bereft of conviction to begin with. If Abraham is an agent of Allah, and Abrahams instructions ignored, then the convert is, in the strict religious sense, useless to Islam.

Of course, conversion has nothing to do with religion anyways. It is about demographics.

IT Loser

the_new_mr wrote:

Hi IT Loser, I don't mean any offence but what are your sources for these statistics? I think you'll find that they are quite wrong.

Anyway, even though your numbers are incorrect, it doesn't really matter. Religion is not supposed to be a numbers game.

I fail to see the relevance of your last post to this thread by the way.

CIA, Roman Catholic Church, Orthodoxy of Greece, Kiev, Moscow

The Patriarch of Constantinople

The last Egyptian Census

etc etc etc

My point is as follows: people over here are fretting that we might be stepping on the toes of Islam...while Christian Churches burn in Cairo, and Christian nuns are stabbed in Constantinople.

So, whats your point?

IT Loser

the_new_mr wrote:

Hi IT Loser, I don't mean any offence but what are your sources for these statistics? I think you'll find that they are quite wrong.

Anyway, even though your numbers are incorrect, it doesn't really matter. Religion is not supposed to be a numbers game.

I fail to see the relevance of your last post to this thread by the way.

In saying that my Stats are wrong you are validating my point: Islam is terrified that it will lose the battle of Demographics. The repetitively bleated claim that islam is the "fastest growing" etc is used to weaken the resolve of Christian subjects everywhere.

The Muslims in Nigeria REFUSE a Census...because they KNOW that, for the first time, they are no longer in the majority.

Why do you dispute it: there are millions of Catholic filipinos in Saudi, who are forbidden to carry the Bible, and who have no Rights under the Wahhabi regime?

Do you dare challenge me on this? I would relish the opportunity to smash the fallacy.

stevenmu

IT Loser this thread is about the practicalities of marriage between Muslims and Christians, it's not about who's winning the numbers, and certainly not about dares, challenges or smashing fallacies. Please stick to the topic at hand.

IT Loser

Very well, I will.