claiming maintenance from abroad

Trinity

Hi everyone,

new here.

my sons father moved abroad over a year ago. before he left he said the money would always be there.

well he hasnt given me a penny since last august (2005) and i am really struggling at the moment. I never hassled him, said i would wait til he had it etc but now he is ignoring my messages etc so i have gone the legal route.

it is extreme but i do feel he has a legal obligation to contribute to the upbringing of our son (if not a moral obligation). Hes going back to school in september and it is just sooo expensive never mind the general daily upbringing of him, food, clothes, bills etc.

I have been told its a slow process. Anyone had any experience of this?

Thanks

brown*eyed*girl

Hi Trinity,

Fellow single parent here and I get zero at the moment too but not going to persue it (long story) but I read a lot on www.rollercoaster.ie website. There is lots of info on the single parenting section. You could also try www.solo.ie. It is so expensive this time of year isn't it. You'd nearly need a credit union loan to get them back to school. Best of luck.

Trinity

Hey

thanks for the reply! He used to throw me some money voluntarily when he lived here thats why we didnt have a court order

it wasnt much but i guess every little helps and i was grateful for it!

You would need a loan alright and hes only 6 god forbid when he goes into secondary!

I've always gotten loans to get me out of a tight spot but i have maxed everything out and they wont give me anymore!

thats the only reason i am bothering going this route otherwise i wouldnt bother. its a sad sad day when you have to force them to help feed and clothe their children isnt it....:mad:

brown*eyed*girl

Trinity1 wrote:

Hey

thanks for the reply! He used to throw me some money voluntarily when he lived here thats why we didnt have a court order

it wasnt much but i guess every little helps and i was grateful for it!

You would need a loan alright and hes only 6 god forbid when he goes into secondary!

I've always gotten loans to get me out of a tight spot but i have maxed everything out and they wont give me anymore!

thats the only reason i am bothering going this route otherwise i wouldnt bother. its a sad sad day when you have to force them to help feed and clothe their children isnt it....:mad:

Been there done that with the loans, thankfully at long last I'm somewhat financially secure but its been a long road and lots of sacrifices. If you're on lower income check if you're entitled to FIS or you could also be entitled to some of your One Parent Family Allowance. Check out the site www.welfare.ie and you might be entitled to something. The rates went up in June for both FIS and OPFA. I'm over the limit for One Parent Family Allowance but might get some FIS as I have two kids and a mortgage. Think I might get €20 a week if I'm lucky. FIS is also available to couples on lower income and is a great stepping stone until you can get onto a higher income.

Also afaik you can get free legal aid. Check out your local citizens advice bureau or health board as you may be entitled to it. Again I wasn't entitled to it but its worth a try. I was going to go down the court route (wont go into my story way too long) and to see the solicitor is was €60 and before she would send out the letter / summons ?? she wanted €400 or 500. You will need a current address for your son's Dad. I'm not great on all this as I've never properly pursued it but the guys on rollercoaster are brilliant.

As for secondary school - thankfully my daughter who's going into 2nd year get her books on the rental scheme. Last year it cost €60 and this year €20. This is a great help but its all the add on stuff like arts and crafts, school bag, shoes, uniform that add up.

Well I've rambled on but PM me if you want any more advice or info. If I can help you I will.

Nevyn

Have you not looked at the back to school alloances to see if you qualify ?
If the Dad of your child is in the EU I am sure there has to be some way of tracking him down but you will most likely need a solicitor.
I would suggest calling or calling into your local Citizens Advice Bureau may be a good place to start.

Trinity

awh thanks guys the advice is great.

hes in the EU alright and the central authority for recovering maintenance (aegis of dept of justice) has sent out the forms, all i have to do is fill them in and they will hunt him down lol

i dont actually qualify for the back to school. i am working but had to cut down my hours to part time cos the creche was working out too expensive for after school.

i do get other benefits though so i am actually making more money by working less hours! Dont like to scrounge of the government but working fulltime i couldnt afford to eat and was paying 250 a week in rent and 125 on his creche and i only earned 350 per week and was entitled to nothing!!!

go figure huh

frobisher

It's a very tricky situation. I'm in the exact same boat. My child's mother moved abroad and hasn't paid a penny in over a year and has now offered €130 a month :eek: The price of renting his room alone is several times that. I didn't want to go the legal route but the money doesn't appear out of thin air so I might have to do it.

I'd be very interested in sharing our expereinces as we go through this thread, we could possibly be able to give each other advice as we go?

Nevyn

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/S/0141/S.0141.199411160004.html

Section 15 deals with the case of an Irish claimant who wishes to recover maintenance from a person residing in a designated jurisdiction. It provides that such a claimant may give evidence on sworn deposition before the District Court as to the facts of the claim. The [857] court may then certify that the claim sets out facts from which it may be determined that the respondent owes a duty to maintain the claimant.

The object of this provision is to ensure that the most convincing evidence is given on behalf of the Irish claimant to the foreign court or tribunal. If a maintenance order has already been made in Ireland in favour of the claimant, the registrar or clerk of the court will give the claimant a copy of the order and a certificate of other particulars relating to it. A similar provision is not included in Part II of the Bill because it is already covered by section 12 of the 1988 Act. The type of evidence provided for in this section should be of great assistance to Irish claimants in pursuing their applications before foreign courts.

Section 18 empowers the High Court to grant provisional, including protective, measures upon the application of the central authority arising from a request for the recovery of maintenance under Part III. The 1988 Act contains similar provisions which would apply to applications under Part II. Such measures could include an injunction to restrain a defendant from disposing of goods or from removing them out of the jurisdiction with the object of defeating any future maintenance order that might be made.

Part IV of the Bill applies to both reciprocating and designated jurisdictions. Section 20 empowers the central authority to obtain information about a defendant's whereabouts or his or her assets. The Rome Convention imposes this obligation on central authorities.

IT seems that you have to have court ordered maintenace order to pursue a parent who lives out side of the country.

http://www.welfare.ie/foi/liabmainfam.html

frobisher if you have currently sole custody of your child, have you applied for child benifit and single parents allownaces and there may be help advailible for your rent as well.

Trinity

I'd be more than happy to keep you updated! It took several phone calls before i was put onto the right place but they were very helpful and sent the forms out immediately.

i just have to fill them in and send them back enclosing the childs birth cert.

i didnt want to go this road (legal) either but its looking like i have no other choice he doesnt seem to have any intention of paying me. I let it slide for a year, how long does it take to get a job?

There are other issues and he may feel its out of bitterness but its not. I can do no more than i have been doing i need some help and its his responsibility too. He always gave me 50 per week which i thought was fair, i never questioned it. But a friend of mine felt i should be quite insulted, as he put it - i spend more feeding my dog each week!

He promised to resume payment in april. Then he came over end of may, promised to start payments then. He even took my bank accoiunt details but now he wont answer any of my messages. It was our sons 6th Birthday in June and he told my son when he was over here (in May) to watch the post and that he would send his pressie over in the mail.

2 months later my baby is still watching the post, it never arrived. my son text him a couple of weeks ago wondering when his present would arrive and he never replied.

It boggles the mind how people can hurt their own children and just walk away. I could never hurt my son.

If you dont mind me saying it is less heard of for a mother to walk away from her child/children.


edited to add just seen other post - i dont have a court order in ireland but the dept of justice said that was not a problem. If he refuses voluntarily to main his dependant then he will be taken to court in the country he is in and i do not have to attend. I think perhaps it is probably quicker and more efficient IF you already have a court ordered maintenance certificate but i do believe you dont need one.

brown*eyed*girl

Trinity that is so sad. You're poor son. To cut a long story short the main reason I'm not pursueing my ex is because in the two years we split up he has let us down both on access and maintenace sooooooooo many times its unreal. I've let him have access without taking a penny from him as he was out on disability yet I'd see him out drinking - actually he was so drunk he didn't remember seeing me. I could go on and on about it but basically I just said I want it regular i.e. maintenace and access or else you can bring me to court (this was about the 20th chance) but guess he chose to just let it be. He often went 2 months without seeing his son and then expect to have him for the weekend. I'm still worrying that I'm making the wrong decision but if he can let his son down so many times in the last two years it would've gotten worse when he is older and can be hurt like your son. My son hasn't seen his Dad since March. If he did pursue me properly and brought me to court I would be willing to be very reasonable. It is so frustrating when you do 99% of the rearing and financially look after your child and then the other parent comes along when it suits them. Hey sorry I'm rambling but you're story hit a nerve.

Trinity

Hey

I'm sorry to hear that about your son too, isnt it heartbreaking. I'm glad you shared that with me as i dont know anyone else in the same boat.

when he came and visited this may he hadnt seen our son in TWO YEARS! He would come visit and say he would be over the following week and disappear for 6 months. Two years was the longest.

My son adores him, i dont know why. i could probably count the number of times he has met him. Isnt it awful when they are sitting looking out the window waiting on daddy and he never shows. My sons dad has done that more times than he has seen him. He'd say i will be over on wednesday and he wouldnt show and wouldnt answer our calls or texts for months.

Hes not a drinker, had a good job, from a very respectable family etc.

I never wanted to say he couldnt see our son cos everytime he would say i swear it will be regular i would think this time hes telling the truth but.

Hes living abroad since april of last year. He contacted us adn sent some photos via email. I almost died when the photos he sent were of him playing on the beach with two kids. Turns out his girlfriend has two and he lives with them, they actually moved abroad together. It was a shock to me but what hurt more was sending those pics to a 5 year old who naturally wanted to know who they were. guess that was His way of telling us.

sorry i'm the one who is rambling!!

brown*eyed*girl

Trinity1 wrote:

Hey

I'm sorry to hear that about your son too, isnt it heartbreaking. I'm glad you shared that with me as i dont know anyone else in the same boat.

when he came and visited this may he hadnt seen our son in TWO YEARS! He would come visit and say he would be over the following week and disappear for 6 months. Two years was the longest.

My son adores him, i dont know why. i could probably count the number of times he has met him. Isnt it awful when they are sitting looking out the window waiting on daddy and he never shows. My sons dad has done that more times than he has seen him. He'd say i will be over on wednesday and he wouldnt show and wouldnt answer our calls or texts for months.

Hes not a drinker, had a good job, from a very respectable family etc.

I never wanted to say he couldnt see our son cos everytime he would say i swear it will be regular i would think this time hes telling the truth but.

Hes living abroad since april of last year. He contacted us adn sent some photos via email. I almost died when the photos he sent were of him playing on the beach with two kids. Turns out his girlfriend has two and he lives with them, they actually moved abroad together. It was a shock to me but what hurt more was sending those pics to a 5 year old who naturally wanted to know who they were. guess that was His way of telling us.

sorry i'm the one who is rambling!!

Hey I will send you a pm tomorrow as I can only log on in work at the moment and I'm going home now.

But this line struck a cord with me

"I never wanted to say he couldnt see our son cos everytime he would say i swear it will be regular i would think this time hes telling the truth but."

I've been there lots and lots of times and its like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. I never knew my Dad and my Mam reared me on her own. I know someone who had a "irregular" Dad and was let down and that person told me they'd prefer no Dad at all than all the let downs. Thats why I made the decision that before my son gets too old I want it sorted to regular or else nothing at all. Sorry this is a bit rambled as I'm rushing out the door for 5:30. I will pm you tomorrow.

frobisher

Trinity1 wrote:

I'd be more than happy to keep you updated! It took several phone calls before i was put onto the right place but they were very helpful and sent the forms out immediately.

2 months later my baby is still watching the post, it never arrived. my son text him a couple of weeks ago wondering when his present would arrive and he never replied.

It boggles the mind how people can hurt their own children and just walk away. I could never hurt my son.

If you dont mind me saying it is less heard of for a mother to walk away from her child/children..

Great so, hopefully we can learn from each others experiences. I guess even having someone in the same boat to share them with is even a good thing.

I'm really sorry to hear your son had to go through that. I don't want to tell you what to do or sound like I have any answers but I think you should defintiely take something like that in the most serious terms possible. I grew up without my father and I know that it's things like that that make a very big difference. Make sure your son knows that it's not his fault that this is happening but be careful not villify his father either. Kids can quietly assume far more responsibilty for things we wouldn't even think of and as a result their self esteem can become a little tender. That said, they are far more resilient than us adults and once they know they are loved and cared for they can deal with incredible situations. I'd consider writing a letter to your ex (letters carry far more weight than emails or the phone) that is about nothing other than him know how bad doing that was. Don't get angry, it won't help, but make him feel the guilt he deserves for it. Then maybe next time your son won't have to go through that.

I know what you mean by how it's mind boggling that people can hurt their own children. My theory is that these people are actually hurt themselves and are all over the place inside. But then I guess sometimes people are just plain old selfsh too.

You're right that it is odd for a woman to leave her son but every situation is different. He is 13 and we get on extremely well. She wanted to move back to her home country and agreed to let him stay here. At the last moment she changed her mind. If you think it would be difficult to be faced with your partner wanting to take your child from you imagine how it is to also know that your countries legal system is completely against you and there's nothing you can do about. That's what a lot of people in my situation face just because they're men. It's profoundly difficult. In the end it worked out, but only because I played the situation very delicately and swallowed my anger. When he was going to live with her we agreed terms for my maintenance but now she is refusing to give the same to me. I'm still hoping to avoid the legal route for the sake of my son. Fingers crossed!!

Trinity

Sorry to hear about your situation. 13 is a very tender age as well.

for 6 years i have always told my son, daddy loves you and misses you and he would be with you if he could. I never said a bad word about him until the birthday incident.

all said was daddy loves you but some people just find it hard to keep promises. because they get busy or they forget. i told him it was nothing to do with him that he was a great son and a good boy and that it was his daddys problem not his. It killed me to tell him but i felt i had no choice. at least if he doesnt expect anything from his father, he cant be disappointed or hurt and i just want his disappointment to stop.

i have spoken calmly to his father about the impact this is having on our son, and how hurt the child was by his actions, he always say the same thing 'he'll be fine'. this is one man with serious issues. i did mail him recently as i didnt have his address but he never replied.

my son knows i love him madly, would never let him down and would never leave him. I only hope thats enough.

shoegirl

Its worth pursuing in principle, however the court can only order that your ex [ays up, they cannot actually force him to pay it. It could be slow, but worth pursuing so good luck. I have one acquaintance whose ex-husband "disappears" every time they find out even roughly where he is living or working and that is in Ireland, so she's had no luck getting a single penny out of him to support his children, even with all the court orders in the world. They can stop it out of his wages, but if he keeps changing job, or as many fellas do, deliberately go on the dole to evade having to pay up, its really impossible to track.

As for elsewhere, another friend basically didn't bother after her boyfriend and father of child absconded back to the UK before his son was even born. He had such an unsteady income anyway it was unlikely he'd be able to pay up. However if he is in the UK, you might be in luck, I think the courts would probably apply provisions like those of the Child Support Agency (see http://www.csa.gov.uk/new/index.asp).

If he's in the UK this might be relevant:

"If one of the parents lives abroad and does not fall into one of the categories above then the parent with care can apply to the courts for child maintenance. If the parent with care needs help in collecting the money awarded under the court order for maintenance they can contact the Reciprocal Enforcement of Maintenance Orders section at the Official Solicitor & Public Trustee. Reciprocal Enforcement of Maintenance Orders - or REMO - is the process by which maintenance orders made by UK courts on behalf of UK residents can be registered and enforced by the courts or other authorities in other countries.

This is a reciprocal arrangement which means that foreign maintenance orders in favour of individuals abroad can be registered and enforced by UK courts against UK residents.

More information on REMO - http://www.csa.gov.uk/new/contact/remo.asp"

It certainly would look as if technically it would be a possibility if the father resides in the EU in a REMO juristriction. A solicitor would help - and don't forget to apply for legal aid.

I personally think there should be a flat rate "absent parent tax" which was automatically charged to the absent parent. In the UK if you don't pay your council tax but live elsewhere you're still liable so I don't see why emigrating should get anybody off the hook for supporting their own children. Its not fair on the child, its mother and everybody who has to either pay taxes or has to arrange all these complicated systems for making these people pay up.

Trinity

Thanks for all that info shoegirl, i'm sure it will come in very handy.

was willing to let it slide, told myself he wasnt worth chasing but last week was sat at the kitchen table looking at all the bills and all the things coming up to pay for and wondering where i am going to get this money from and i thought of him. Living it up in spain and there are days here when i have to borrow money for basics like bread and milk.

it makes the blood boil and more to the point i am doing it on principal. i'll prob lose my other benefits but i'd would rather be getting it off him than the state. I've always worked and paid my taxes but HE should do the RIGHT thing by his son.

Its a pity they have to be forced.

sullivk

I recieve the OPFP of 180 euro each week and my sons father gives me 50 euro. I cant work because im in college full-time.
I have never told the social welfare that my ex is giving me money because they would deduct it from my payments (dishonest I know, but I really need every penny I can get!).
Anyway, my ex earns about 500 a week.
My son is due to start playschool in 2 weeks and I know its going to be a real struggle. Ive asked his father if he could give me an extra 25 a week to pay half the playschool costs but he says he hasnt got the money (he pays 500 euro a month for his brand new '06 car!! ):mad:

I have threatened him with court before but then he threatens me saying he'll tell the social welfare ive been lying to them and then ill be in BIG trouble...
He has no proof that he has been giving me money as hes always given it straight into my hand.
We get on well, I always encourage him to see his son but he'll only take him on a saturday night because hes sooooooooo busy (he finishes work at 2 everyday and lives a 5 minute drive away!)

Money is so tight, should I bring him to court?

Nevyn

sullivk you should still be eligible for FIS
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/pay_and_employment/family_income_supplement.html
Go talk to someone in your local welfare office or http://www.comhairle.ie/citizens/ for your local office or you can ring them an enquire.

Trinity

Hey

sorry i just saw this now.

as far as i know - legal aid told me. If he is giving you money into the hand without a court order it is classed as a gift.

If you bring him to court, you will most likely have to tell social if they dont find out themselves.

Your book will be deducted once you start receiving maintence so why dont you go see citizens advice and find out who to talk to.

financially you may not be any better off cos what he gives you they may take away. I think they disregard the first 25 euro.

best to check these things thoroughtly first though!!

Gillo

It's only when you read a thread like this that you realise that there's a lot of w@&kers out there.

Having been on and off with my daughters mother since she was born, I've always given her maintaince, ok some months it's been hard but I've always made sure that she gets the money.

Unfortunatly, I can't give any advice here, but definetly think you should keep the pressure up. Good luck with it.

hshortt

"Any man can be a father, but it takes someone special to be a daddy."

I am ashamed that this man will not face his responsibilities. I was an unmarried father and I was the one to do the chasing to get the court orders. Thankfully, all worked out well and I see my daughter very regularly and all is above board with her mom too.

With the unmarried fathers association fighting for fathers to have greater access, I can see the battle the face in the posts above. Any man that can walk away from his child deserves to be castrated. There is simply no excuse.

Good luck,
Howard

Trinity

I said i'd give an update and here it is!

Having sent off the forms in August to Dept of Justice I have just this morning received a letter from them saying the SPanish Authorities cannot persue it without his full address and also proof that he is the father of the child or at least proof that he believed that he was the father of the child.

so i am back to square one.

Looks like hes going to get away with it

dame

Hi Trinity1, I've just read this thread and I really feel for all the single parents struggling here. I don't know if you know his family at all but if you do would they be willing to give you his address? I'm sure they know that you and your son exist and have met your son in the past when you were still together. Perhaps a visit to his parents or a quick note, just to remind them that their garndson still exists and that his father has not been paying any maintenance for him. They've probably been wondering how their grand-child is and possibly (hopefully) don't approve of the fact that their son has cut contact and refused maintenance. Maybe they would tell you his address at least, even if they don't want to get involved and speak to their son about the matter. Maybe guilt would get to them and you could convince them to give you his address and assure them that you will never reveal how you got his address. Failing that, do you know any of his siblings or close friends? I know you don't want to go bothering people or turning up with a sob story but if getting his address is what's necessary then maybe you could think of a way to get it?

Trinity

Thanks Dame.

unfortunately it is out of the question. they have no interest in the child either and when he first moved abroad 2 years ago they wouldnt give me his phone number just said they would pass on a message.

God knows what he told them about me probably a load of crap. They are a strange bunch mind you. He didnt lick it off a stone.

But thanks for reply!

Nevyn

If you were not married to him when the birht of your child was registered and if his name is on the birth cert then he would have had to go to the register of births and deaths aclaim the child as his and sign the register to have his name on the birth certs and that certainly is saying he tought the child is his.

Trinity

No he is not on the birth cert. The only things i have are photos of him holding him at the christening a a couple of recent ones.

My son is the spitting image of his Dad.

Anyway i have decided to leave it. He is out of our lives now, we heard nothing over the xmas, not even a text for my son.

I have a new partner now and my son calls him Dad. My son has what he wants to an extent and thats a man in his life he loves and can depend on who is always there for him.

thats something his own dad could/would never do so best leave well enough alone.

Carrigart Exile

Trinity1 wrote:

Hi everyone,

new here.

my sons father moved abroad over a year ago. before he left he said the money would always be there.

well he hasnt given me a penny since last august (2005) and i am really struggling at the moment. I never hassled him, said i would wait til he had it etc but now he is ignoring my messages etc so i have gone the legal route.

it is extreme but i do feel he has a legal obligation to contribute to the upbringing of our son (if not a moral obligation). Hes going back to school in september and it is just sooo expensive never mind the general daily upbringing of him, food, clothes, bills etc.

I have been told its a slow process. Anyone had any experience of this?

Thanks

Just one 'non legal' thought but does he have family in Ireland. If his parents and your child's grandparents knew he had abandoned his child they may be able to bring pressure that no lawyer could (and a lot cheaper).

Oops just read Dame's post, ignore this one.

The Corinthian

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here if I may because it touches upon a wider topic with regard to parenthood. Apologies for kind of hijacking the thread and if the Mods wish to spin this off into another thread, please feel free.

While we don't have a full picture of the OP's situation and their past with the father of the child, it does appear that the father was an involuntary one. Let me put it this way: He's not on the birth cert. By extension it may well be assumed that he has not sought (and/or the OP has given) joint guardianship. It would appear that once the OP was pregnant, the father was presented a fait accompli - he was going to become a father and he was going to have to financially (assist) support the child because the mother had not only chosen to bring the child to term, but also to keep it. The best he can do is grin and bare it and make the best of a situation not of his choosing.

Of course, the above conclusions may be wrong, but I'm really only basing it upon the information in this thread. Additionally I do sympathise with the financial and social situation of the mother now. However, my point actually goes beyond this and asks whether it is right for someone to choose a lifestyle for themselves and then expect another to be responsible for it too, even though they never had a choice in the matter themselves.

Ultimately, it does seem bizarre that one party ultimately has sole rights to choose the future of both parties (all three if you include the child) while still expecting responsibility to be shared. I don't think anyone can be forced to be a parent - either they are ready and willing to do so or they won't be - I don't think anyone will argue with that, but is it just either that someone is forced to pay for another's lifestyle choice?

If it was not his choice to be a father, if ultimately the mother chose to keep and raise the child, then - outside of a traditional assumption that "a father should be responsible no matter what", which is probably from the same school as "a mother should bring a child to term no matter what" - the buck, like the choice, stops with her.

Thoughts?

Carrigart Exile

The Corinthian wrote:

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here if I may because it touches upon a wider topic with regard to parenthood. Apologies for kind of hijacking the thread and if the Mods wish to spin this off into another thread, please feel free.

While we don't have a full picture of the OP's situation and their past with the father of the child, it does appear that the father was an involuntary one. Let me put it this way: He's not on the birth cert. By extension it may well be assumed that he has not sought (and/or the OP has given) joint guardianship. It would appear that once the OP was pregnant, the father was presented a fait accompli - he was going to become a father and he was going to have to financially (assist) support the child because the mother had not only chosen to bring the child to term, but also to keep it. The best he can do is grin and bare it and make the best of a situation not of his choosing.

Of course, the above conclusions may be wrong, but I'm really only basing it upon the information in this thread. Additionally I do sympathise with the financial and social situation of the mother now. However, my point actually goes beyond this and asks whether it is right for someone to choose a lifestyle for themselves and then expect another to be responsible for it too, even though they never had a choice in the matter themselves.

Ultimately, it does seem bizarre that one party ultimately has sole rights to choose the future of both parties (all three if you include the child) while still expecting responsibility to be shared. I don't think anyone can be forced to be a parent - either they are ready and willing to do so or they won't be - I don't think anyone will argue with that, but is it just either that someone is forced to pay for another's lifestyle choice?

If it was not his choice to be a father, if ultimately the mother chose to keep and raise the child, then - outside of a traditional assumption that "a father should be responsible no matter what", which is probably from the same school as "a mother should bring a child to term no matter what" - the buck, like the choice, stops with her.

Thoughts?

Whilst not knowing if this is indeed the OP's situation you do raise a fascinating point regarding equality of treatment. A man has absolutely no say over whether his child can be aborted and absolutely no say over whether he becomes a father.

The Corinthian

Carrigart Exile wrote:

Whilst not knowing if this is indeed the OP's situation you do raise a fascinating point regarding equality of treatment. A man has absolutely no say over whether his child can be aborted and absolutely no say over whether he becomes a father.

Actually it goes beyond that. If a parent chooses that they want to have and keep a child, this is naturally a huge life changing decision. However, as things legally stand it is one that can be made unilaterally by one parent and then in part imposed on the other – even if it is only in the shape of maintenance payments.

The father in the OP’s case appears not to be a willing partner in the mother’s choice to have and keep a child, and even if one accepts that she should be able to unilaterally do so, is it then just that he should then have his own life changed because someone else wanted to change hers?

I’m not suggesting that a mother should terminate her pregnancy or even put the child up for adoption if the father wants nothing to do with it, but it is a little morally questionable that she should choose to keep her child and then look for the father to in part fund something that he got no say in.

I would be curious to know how single mothers in this situation justify it outside of financial need (as this alone is hardly a justification for indenturing another human being).

dame

I'm not a single mother but I would say that the father has had a say in it - it takes two after all and surely if you do the business then you accept that there is always a slight risk of pregnancy (birth control measures are not 100% effective). Knowing the risk of something and doing it anyway means that you should be prepared to deal with the consequences, whether you like the consequences or not.

In the OP's case the father was around and acting as a father for at least a while of his child's life. I personally think that in that case he has acknowled that he is a father and should not now be allowed to opt out completely, just because it doesn't suit him any more. You can leave a partner or wife but you should never leave a child. I'm trying to explain this but doing it badly. Even if you are apart from your child you should never leave your child thinking that you don't care. It would be different if you disappeared before the child was even born and didn't know the child existed but I think that once your child has gotten to know you as "daddy" then you have an obligation to show that child some love, even if it is just a birthday card every year. It will ultimately be damaging for the child to grow up believeing that their father could discard them so easily and go off and live with and support another woman's kids (which aren't his own), as the OP's ex has done.

There are also single mothers out there who don't want to have anything to do with their ex, not even maintenance payments.

The Corinthian

dame wrote:

I'm not a single mother but I would say that the father has had a say in it - it takes two after all and surely if you do the business then you accept that there is always a slight risk of pregnancy (birth control measures are not 100% effective). Knowing the risk of something and doing it anyway means that you should be prepared to deal with the consequences, whether you like the consequences or not.

Certainly, but does it make sense then that the consequences for the mother are that she may choose to keep, terminate or put up the child for adoption and those for the father are to essentially be at the mercy of whatever the mother decides? It appears that fathers have little or no choice where it comes to deal with the consequences while mothers can force fathers to share the burden of the consequences of their choices.

I’m not suggesting that a father should have a veto on whether a child is brought to term or adopted or not. But if the choice to keep a child is solely a mother’s, then the consequences of that choice should also be solely hers.

In the OP's case the father was around and acting as a father for at least a while of his child's life. I personally think that in that case he has acknowled that he is a father and should not now be allowed to opt out completely, just because it doesn't suit him any more.

Only the OP can really explain what happened there (and even then it would simply be her side of the story), but it could well have been that he was presented with a fait accompli and given the circumstances was forced into trying to make the best of a bad situation (after all, he might as well get something for what he’s paying). On the other hand it could well have been as you described it in which case he made his choice with both eyes open and is responsible for it.

Given this there are cases where the father is not involved with the child occurring every day. The mother chooses to have and raise the child, regardless of the wishes of the biological father, and then pursues him for maintenance to support this choice. Unless the father wants to pay what is often a fair chunk of his income for the next 18 – 23 years (or the rest of his life if the child is handicapped), his only remaining option is exile.

Surely this is morally and ethically questionable to say the least?

You can leave a partner or wife but you should never leave a child.

That’s true and this is the tragedy of the situation. Fathers who either don’t want to be fathers, are not yet ready or may even be ready but not with the mother in question are told to pay up and shut up. Many then feel obligated to try and become involved and then fail because they simply were not up to the task to begin with and so the child suffers.

There are also single mothers out there who don't want to have anything to do with their ex, not even maintenance payments.

Which is fair enough – they’ve made a choice and they are dealing with the consequences of that choice without forcing anyone else to share that burden.

RainyDay

The Corinthian wrote:

While we don't have a full picture of the OP's situation and their past with the father of the child, it does appear that the father was an involuntary one.

Do you reckon the father was tied up & raped? Other than that, I can't see how his becoming a father could be seen as 'involuntary'?

The Corinthian

RainyDay wrote:

Do you reckon the father was tied up & raped? Other than that, I can't see how his becoming a father could be seen as 'involuntary'?

I assume neither was the mother – yet she has the right to choose whether to keep the child or not, and then to impose what is essentially her lifestyle choice on another individual who had no say in the matter.

So we’re not discussing the consequences of sex, we’re discussing the consequences of what comes after - choosing to keep a child or not. And I’m not even saying that a mother should not have this right alone – only that if she does, she should live with the consequences of this choice without imposing them on those who were not given a say.

Carrigart Exile

RainyDay wrote:

Do you reckon the father was tied up & raped? Other than that, I can't see how his becoming a father could be seen as 'involuntary'?

Following this logic then once a woman is pregnant if the man wants the baby she must have it regardless of her own feelings. The point being made is after conception there are choices the mother can be make, unfortunately, the man appears to have no choice and can either take the internal pain of knowing a child you wanted was aborted or a child the man didn't want was brought into the world and he will be held responsible for it financially.

Trinity

Yes you have a good point and i am sure it happens everyday.

However in this case, he never said he didnt want to be a Dad and when he was around he was quite a good one.

Admittedly though if you want my thoughts on the subject, i would have had the baby regardless, this however is a whole other issue and irrelevant in my particular case

Ultimately, i would have known from day one that i would have had to accept full responsibilty for the child and prepared myself for single motherhood, then the sticky subject of having to explain to the child when he was older why he didnt know his father. But thats the choice i would have made personally.

My son knows his father and misses him. Thats even harder i think than if he was just a name.

Anyway the money was never really that important even though i needed it!! it was more a case of trying to stop him hurting the child by coming in and out of his life. i told him time and time again if he didnt want to be part of our sons life that it was ok but begged him to keep it regular, even a phone call. He said of course he wanted to be part of his life. That of course was before he moved abroad.

On the flip side of the coin i cannot by any means make him see the child. I have never refused but if i did he could bring me to court and would get visitation so i am really powerless in this as well while he calls the shots in that department.

Its really a messy situation for everyone involved when parents are not together but that the end of the day the only thing that matters to me is my sons welfare and happiness.

The Corinthian

Trinity1 wrote:

Ultimately, i would have known from day one that i would have had to accept full responsibilty for the child and prepared myself for single motherhood, then the sticky subject of having to explain to the child when he was older why he didnt know his father. But thats the choice i would have made personally.

From what you’re saying he was tepid on the subject of fatherhood.

I would ask though whether you demanded maintenance or whether it was voluntary (and IMHO if you presented him with the option that if you’re willing to be a father you pay maintenance and if not you don’t would be a voluntary choice for him).

It’s just that this thread was predicated on the premise that you were looking to enforce maintenance. Additionally while he was a father, he certainly was not down as one on the birth cert and I assume neither was he a guardian.

If he was able to make that choice, then he made his bed and should sleep in it. Otherwise, that choice was made for him and his half-hearted attempt at fatherhood was based upon him trying to get something in return for the financial responsibility that was foisted upon him. The problem with that is it often fails.

I suppose the question I’m trying to ask is if he had said he didn’t want to be a father or involved, would you have pursued him for maintenance regardless, and if so how can you justify that ethically?

Trinity

No i wouldnt persue it if he had come out straight and said he didnt want the child.

He promised the sun moon and stars - that is the difference. I never tried to force him into anything. He contributed voluntarily i.e. 50 euro per week. That stopped over a year and a half ago i think.

He said he would contribute, i never asked for anything, he even took my bank account number last May. I said if he was in a tight spot that i understood and would wait, if he didnt have it sure he couldnt give it. But then he got a job and he said he would give me something. He told the child to watch the post for a birthday present in June that he would send one with his name on it. Hes still waiting. I did tell him i was in a tight spot and he said he would get the money to me asap - that was June.

Now if this was a case of me chasing this man for money after he had said he didnt want anything to do with us then i would understand people questioning my actions.

Its more that hes making a fool of me. Taking my account number etc. His words when he left was the money would always be there.

We sat down and had heart to hearts about the child and genuinely hand on heart if he had said he didnt want to be a dad i would have let it go.

I'm not the bunny boiler type, i do have my sons best interest at heart. Apart from the odd disagreement over his behaviour i have always been civil and friendly. I cook for him when he visits (past tense) and even let him stay when he came over, we had a few beers etc.

I have not contacted him since august nor he us. I have no intention of doing so again tbh. Its not doing anyone any good and only causing more heartache when he ignores my childs texts/calls.

edited to add having re-read your post i guess looking back it was a half hearted attempt by him at fatherhood. but it wasnt forced upon him i can assure you. He was given the option time and time again to opt out of our lives. I even tried to make it easy for him by saying i know how hard it might be to admit it but i understand.

I was hardly perfect throughout this whole affair either, i made quite a few mistakes and when i last saw him on his visit in May i apologised for everything. he apologised too and said he has never been there for us but he will be. I guess it was just words but like all the other times i believed him and was shocked when he couldnt even keep his promise to send a b'day present or phone our son on a regular basis.

i'm opting out now though. I cant make him do anything but i cant continue to listen to his lies or sweet talk either. After 6 yrs it finally dawned on me that hes never gonna change. The only thing i know is i wouldnt change my son for anything.

I made my bed also and we have managed without him for this long.

Carrigart Exile

Trinity1 wrote:

Yes you have a good point and i am sure it happens everyday.

However in this case, he never said he didnt want to be a Dad and when he was around he was quite a good one.

Admittedly though if you want my thoughts on the subject, i would have had the baby regardless, this however is a whole other issue and irrelevant in my particular case

Ultimately, i would have known from day one that i would have had to accept full responsibilty for the child and prepared myself for single motherhood, then the sticky subject of having to explain to the child when he was older why he didnt know his father. But thats the choice i would have made personally.

My son knows his father and misses him. Thats even harder i think than if he was just a name.

Anyway the money was never really that important even though i needed it!! it was more a case of trying to stop him hurting the child by coming in and out of his life. i told him time and time again if he didnt want to be part of our sons life that it was ok but begged him to keep it regular, even a phone call. He said of course he wanted to be part of his life. That of course was before he moved abroad.

On the flip side of the coin i cannot by any means make him see the child. I have never refused but if i did he could bring me to court and would get visitation so i am really powerless in this as well while he calls the shots in that department.

Its really a messy situation for everyone involved when parents are not together but that the end of the day the only thing that matters to me is my sons welfare and happiness.

Hi Trinity wasn't for a minute suggesting that was your situation. I fail to understand Fathers & Mothers who want no contact with their children when a relationship ends. As you rightly point out some estranged parents go to considerable lengths to get access to children and then there are those where access is offered on a plate and they reject it. Good luck with you and your child's future and I pray 'dad' will get his act together.

Trinity

Carrigart Exile wrote:

Hi Trinity wasn't for a minute suggesting that was your situation. I fail to understand Fathers & Mothers who want no contact with their children when a relationship ends. As you rightly point out some estranged parents go to considerable lengths to get access to children and then there are those where access is offered on a plate and they reject it. Good luck with you and your child's future and I pray 'dad' will get his act together.

Thank you i didnt take your post in that context at all

I think Dad will realise when its too late what hes missing. But by then it will be out of my hands and up to the child if he wants contact. But for now my son is a bit more settled and talking about his dad less and less. But i am here for him anyway.

The Corinthian

Trinity1 wrote:

No i wouldnt persue it if he had come out straight and said he didnt want the child.

He promised the sun moon and stars - that is the difference. I never tried to force him into anything. He contributed voluntarily i.e. 50 euro per week. That stopped over a year and a half ago i think.

Che cafone. He wasn't forced and he made his choice, so really he should live with the consequences of that choice. I'm really sorry for mainly your child in this, but also for you.

Had he been forced into payments and fatherhood, I might have some sympathy for him, but he wasn't. I suggest you make a complaint via legal channels and set up a maintenance order which he will have already transgressed. If for no other reason than he will be forced never to return to Ireland unless he wants a court order against him - this will be the price of his choice.

However, my original question stands to others here.

Trinity

The Corinthian wrote:

Che cafone. He wasn't forced and he made his choice, so really he should live with the consequences of that choice. I'm really sorry for mainly your child in this, but also for you.

Had he been forced into payments and fatherhood, I might have some sympathy for him, but he wasn't. I suggest you make a complaint via legal channels and set up a maintenance order which he will have already transgressed. If for no other reason than he will be forced never to return to Ireland unless he wants a court order against him - this will be the price of his choice.

However, my original question stands to others here.

Thank you. I will most likely just leave it though tbh. As for him not being able to come back to Ireland, well there are 2 other children involved - those of his new partner, they dont deserve to be involved and if they wanted to come back as a family (they moved abroad together she is from here too) - i wouldnt like to be responsible for hurting those children or affecting their lives etc

I have my peace of mind knowing i did the best for my son. No amount of money can buy him that. he has to put his head on the pillow every night knowing what hes doing to a child. (and i dont mean financially)

The child wasnt planned i will give him that much. But not once did he say he didnt want him, he said the opposite - but his actions told a different story.

Live and let live I say, everything happens for a reason.

RainyDay

The Corinthian wrote:

I assume neither was the mother – yet she has the right to choose whether to keep the child or not, and then to impose what is essentially her lifestyle choice on another individual who had no say in the matter.

So we’re not discussing the consequences of sex, we’re discussing the consequences of what comes after - choosing to keep a child or not. And I’m not even saying that a mother should not have this right alone – only that if she does, she should live with the consequences of this choice without imposing them on those who were not given a say.

The other individual had plenty of say in the matter. He had plenty of opportunity to check out the attitude of the mother to pregnancy/parenthood/abortion before he went waving his lad about without protection. If he didn't bother to do his research first, he really can't come back whinging later.

The nature of the decision to keep a baby or not means that there is no room for compromise. The decision is going to go one way or another - no middle ground. Obviously it makes sense for both parties to discuss this decision, but I can't see any other way but to allow the mother to make the final decision. One person needs to have the ultimate right and responsibility for the decision.

Carrigart Exile

RainyDay wrote:

The other individual had plenty of say in the matter. He had plenty of opportunity to check out the attitude of the mother to pregnancy/parenthood/abortion before he went waving his lad about without protection. If he didn't bother to do his research first, he really can't come back whinging later.

The nature of the decision to keep a baby or not means that there is no room for compromise. The decision is going to go one way or another - no middle ground. Obviously it makes sense for both parties to discuss this decision, but I can't see any other way but to allow the mother to make the final decision. One person needs to have the ultimate right and responsibility for the decision.

I suppose we could argue the lady in question had plenty of opportunity to check out his attitude to being a father before she went waving her girl about without protection. If she didn't do her research first she cannot whine if he scarpers. Sorry OP this is not aimed at you but just in response to the points being made.

With regard to your second point about someone has to have the ultimate right and responsibility for the decision; the point under discussion relates to women having all the rights and expecting the man to pick up the tab for the responsibility. Inherently wrong.

Trinity

Thats ok exile i see your point

There are so many case scenarios though arent there. You have one nights stands resulting in pregnancy, unplanned pregnancies or planned pregnancies, either way its not 100% guaranteed that the couple will stay together.

The guy may not want the child but the girl does not want to have an abortion. You cannot force a man to be a father and you cannot force someone to give up the child growing inside them. The girl has to decide if she can do this alone i.e. raise a child and have him grow up not knowing his father.

Its not always as cut and dried as the woman saying well i am having the baby therefore you have to want it, you have no choice.

Then some guys are genuinely not ready and are devastated at the thoughts of walking away and living their life knowing they have a son or daughter out there that they have never even seen.

At the end of the day bringing a child into the world should be a joint decision and not one to be taken lightly.

If a you have unprotected sex you have to know that there may (if not most likely) be consequences. A lot, if not most, of the responsibility falls on the woman who has to go through pregnancy and then child birth and raise the child or else go have an abortion. Men can quite literally walk away, a lot wouldnt be so heartless but quite a few do!

In contrast there are many wonderful dads out there whatever their age that take the responsibility in their stride and do it well.

So therefore imho it really is the woman who should take responsibility for protection because men can and do walk away.

The Corinthian

RainyDay wrote:

The other individual had plenty of say in the matter. He had plenty of opportunity to check out the attitude of the mother to pregnancy/parenthood/abortion before he went waving his lad about without protection. If he didn't bother to do his research first, he really can't come back whinging later.

Let me get this straight, contraception is entirely the man’s responsibility? Are women too feebleminded I suppose to share any responsibility there? And apparently all unplanned pregnancies are simply due to a man “waving his lad about without protection”?

The nature of the decision to keep a baby or not means that there is no room for compromise. The decision is going to go one way or another - no middle ground. Obviously it makes sense for both parties to discuss this decision, but I can't see any other way but to allow the mother to make the final decision. One person needs to have the ultimate right and responsibility for the decision.

You seem to be repeatedly missing the point that is being made which is precisely that if one has the final right then they should also have the final responsibility as Carrigart Exile has explained to you. Twice.

The Corinthian

Trinity1 wrote:

So therefore imho it really is the woman who should take responsibility for protection because men can and do walk away.

I appreciate this, but it's not actually what is really being discussed. The question is if we take as a given that the woman has sole rights to the choice, then can she then morally impose that choice, in the form of seeking maintenance, on the father who has been excluded from the decision.

Trinity

The Corinthian wrote:

I appreciate this, but it's not actually what is really being discussed. The question is if we take as a given that the woman has sole rights to the choice, then can she then morally impose that choice, in the form of seeking maintenance, on the father who has been excluded from the decision.

I understand the question alright but it is with great difficulty that i try to explain myself here!

I am going to contradict myself and say, if prior to unprotected sex, the man knows the woman has the sole rights to choice and whether or not he wants the responsibility he is going to have to live with the consequences if she chooses to give birth. Not a lot of women are going to go have an abortion just because the man tells her to and he should never assume that just because he doesnt want the baby that the woman will go off and 'take care of things'.

Because whether or not it is morally right or wrong to seek maintenance in this case - on legal grounds the man will be held accountable for his part in making the baby. He may have been excluded from the final decision, but he wasnt excluded in the act of unprotected sex. Unless she lies about being on contraception which is another matter entirely although i am sure it does happen.

Morally - i dont know. As stated before in my case and my circumstances, i personally would not persue it if he had told me he didnt want our son.

But i could probably see another womans point if she did persue it as it does take 2 to tango and everyone must be held responsible for their actions. Each case is different. For example:

Someone i know fell pregnant for a man who for years told her he couldnt have children, she had no reason to doubt him. When she told him she was pregnant, He said he didnt want it, but she didnt want to have an abortion. She was in turmoil for weeks, not knowing what to do, til the stress got so bad that she lost the baby anyway.


Anyway slightly gone off topic there and probably only one line relates to your question.

What is your opinion on it Corinthian?

The Corinthian

Trinity1 wrote:

I am going to contradict myself and say, if prior to unprotected sex, the man knows the woman has the sole rights to choice and whether or not he wants the responsibility he is going to have to live with the consequences if she chooses to give birth. Not a lot of women are going to go have an abortion just because the man tells her to and he should never assume that just because he doesnt want the baby that the woman will go off and 'take care of things'.

It's not uncommon though that couples will have discussed such an eventuality and at the time agreed that they would not keep it only for the mother to unilaterally change her mind. The consiquences are those that come of the decision to keep (or not) the child, not the sex itself. By trying to suggest that the die was cast from the moment of conception is to deny that the mother had any choice thereafter and abdicates her responsibility for that choice.

Because whether or not it is morally right or wrong to seek maintenance in this case - on legal grounds the man will be held accountable for his part in making the baby. He may have been excluded from the final decision, but he wasnt excluded in the act of unprotected sex. Unless she lies about being on contraception which is another matter entirely although i am sure it does happen.

In a case of a woman lying about contraception, then legally it may affect the amount awarded, but not that the father will have to pay in the first place. As a related point, it is interesting to note that a woman can lie about paternity, receive maintenance and if the father later discovers that he is not the father, it is not considered fraud - even though he may well be out of pocket for tens of thousands of Euro.

While the example of unprotected sex has been repeatedly raised, there are numerous other reasons that would not be as ethically straightforward; contraceptive failure, deceit, or even a change of mind. In all of these cases fathers are financially liable and many mothers pursue them for purely financial reasons.

The only logical conclusion to the argument of "you had sex, so tough" then is abstinance for men. Women need not abstain, of course, because they still can choose to terminate or adopt.

But i could probably see another womans point if she did persue it as it does take 2 to tango and everyone must be held responsible for their actions. Each case is different.

I agree, but the action in question is not the sex or conception, but the choice of what comes after and the father has no part in this. If a woman to keeps her child, then this is a choice as there are other options open to her - it is this choice and not the sex (or decision to go on a date, or the decision to ask for a phone number) that came before it that ultimately decides things.

What is your opinion on it Corinthian?

If we accept the premise that the woman has sole rights to decide on the fate of the child, then ultimately she must bare the sole responsibility for this fate, unless the father elects to share that burden. If both are part of that choice, then natrually the burden is one that should be shared because both have freely chosen to do so.

Otherwise you're effectively choosing a lifestyle choice (and raising a child is most definitely a choice that will affect your lifestyle) and indenturing someone to part fund it for you. It's greed with a baby picture glued to the cover.

In short, if you have the right to choose, you should deal with consequences of that choice without trying to pass the buck. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Nevyn

It is not funding the lifestyle of the mother but helping to provide for the offspring.

Many men have not bothered with children they did not want and find ways to bow out of the childs life, this has always happens and indeed contunues to happen and most likely will do until we have better contraception solutions to unexpected pregnacies.

While standard sexual intercourse between hertosexual couples is gratifing it
is still as far as our drives to reproduce is concerned for begetting children.

While surpising or trying to trap a person into being a parent is wrong and not honourible imho ignorig the fact that a child has been created ( despite the circumstances of it's conception and birth and the relationship with the other parent ) is just as wrong.

Until we have 100% contraception for both gender and a huge improvement in sexual education in this country children will be not a matter of lifestyle choice but a fact of life and hetrosexual couplings.

This is straying more into a topic for humanities tbh.

The Corinthian

Thaedydal wrote:

It is not funding the lifestyle of the mother but helping to provide for the offspring.

Choosing to be a parent is a choice and one that irrevocably will change that parent's life and how they live it. If they need financial assistance to do this, then in turn it is funding this choice, no matter how you dress it up.

Many men have not bothered with children they did not want and find ways to bow out of the childs life

Legally there are very few ways of doing this without skipping the country or remaining too poor to afford maintenance, so if a mother is really determined (and the father is a good mark for the money) not really.

While standard sexual intercourse between hertosexual couples is gratifying it is still as far as our drives to reproduce is concerned for begetting children.

While surprising or trying to trap a person into being a parent is wrong and not honourable imho ignorig the fact that a child has been created ( despite the circumstances of it's conception and birth and the relationship with the other parent ) is just as wrong.

So you oppose either termination or adoption as alternatives?

You've put forward two arguments on how it's all about reproduction and the good of the child, yet, unless you then accept the rights of the child and one's duty to reproduction supersede those of the individual - you're really just trying to put forward a double standard that you feel men should abide by and women should not.

Seriously it's actually bizarre how some people can talk about "a woman's right to choose" and then cry "won't someone think of the children" whenever it suits them.

This is straying more into a topic for humanities tbh.

True, but the main reason I brought it up here was I was curious to see if mothers who have done this (chased up fathers who did not want to be fathers) would reply and explain how this was morally justifiable.

So far no one seems to have been able to explain, for example, how it makes sense for someone to have all the choices and then refuse to shoulder the full burden of those choices. Either that choice is shared or you have to accept their consequences.