Over 80 Mowag personel carriers procured, whats next?

darkman2

Im sure alot of you are darn nigh fed up looking at the new Mowags by now but thankfully their procurement is nearing completion. So what do we need, require or would want next. Should we be looking to aquire medium strength armoured tanks to add a bit of back-bone to our ground compliment? Given that the Mowag APCs were bought using funds from the sale of lands are we going to see procurment on a similar scale again?? Also was the defence department right to buy the APC's in the first place or could they have spread the wealth a bit more?

Also whats the Mowag's capibility. What weapons are mounted etc etc. I imagine its just light machine guns???:rolleyes:

punchdrunk

just .50 cal's/GPMG's on the majority of them,i think about twelve or so of the new ones will have 25/30mm chaingun fitted like the bradley/scimitar etc...

next up a recon tank to replace the scorpion,but i'd say go for the chaingun on these( preferably the same as fitted to the newer mowag's(,for ease of training/spares etc)
a 90mm gun ain't much use against tanks anymore
might be nice to fit it with an ATWG system like TOW for extra fire power

a few more recovery trucks for the mowags/bigger units (apparently they were sweating it one would breakdown on paddy's day!)
about twenty mortar carrier versions of the mowag would be good too

i suppose if we were getting more involved with EU battlegroup stuff a squadron of leopard II's would be nice,but otherwise they wouldn't see much work

Maskhadov

The cav need some of these (105mm mowag)



The DF need some of these (mowag eagles) as an armoured replacement for the nissans overseas.




We could do with some of these (leopard 2) and actually have a tank for the tank squadron (not a recce vehicle)



the scorpion needs to be either upgraded or replaced. I would personally go with the Fennek

muletide

darkman2 wrote:

Im sure alot of you are darn nigh fed up looking at the new Mowags by now but thankfully their procurement is nearing completion. So what do we need, require or would want next. Should we be looking to aquire medium strength armoured tanks to add a bit of back-bone to our ground compliment? Given that the Mowag APCs were bought using funds from the sale of lands are we going to see procurment on a similar scale again?? Also was the defence department right to buy the APC's in the first place or could they have spread the wealth a bit more?

Also whats the Mowag's capibility. What weapons are mounted etc etc. I imagine its just light machine guns???:rolleyes:

Who is sick of looking at Mowags, I guarantee you no one in the infantry is sick of looking at them apart from maybe the guys running the courses. They are an excellent machine and a godsend

punchdrunk

last i heard DF were testing up armoured hummers/mowag variant in the curragh

Clare gunner

Errr,not trying to rain on the parade.But is it practible to have a squradron of Leo 2's in Ireland????Or any MBT for that matter,we are not exactly tank country.[Open plains,desert,etc] Apart from possibly Lenister and the Curragh plains?We have narrow roads,bogs,rocky outcrops,boreens,etc.And even good grassland or arable land can be wet for six months of the year,and it will even bog down agricultural equipment,what will it do to a sixty ton MBT?Not only do you need the tanks you need heavy recovery equipment and transporters to shift if stuck or move quickly on the road. More expense.What is it ,three ancilary service vechicles for two tanks?Wheeld armour seems to be the way to go in Ireland.We did have INMHO an exellent maid of all work,albeit expensive and stupidly converted to ambulances.The Mercedes G wagon.wonder what ever happened to those two ambulance G wagons ?

IrishAirCorps

punchdrunk wrote:

just .50 cal's/GPMG's on the majority of them,i think about twelve or so of the new ones will have 25/30mm chaingun fitted like the bradley/scimitar etc...

In all honesty i was just going to ask this as i havent seen many Mowags lately with any type of armament on them at all...

IrishAirCorps

punchdrunk wrote:

last i heard DF were testing up armoured hummers/mowag variant in the curragh

Ya thats true AFAIK

Stimpyone

punchdrunk wrote:

last i heard DF were testing up armoured hummers/mowag variant in the curragh

It's the URO VAMTAC, the Spanish version of the Hummer that's undergoing trials.


http://www.parque4x4.com.ar/recibidos/uro/

Clare gunner

Stimpyone wrote:

It's the URO VAMTAC, the Spanish version of the Hummer that's undergoing trials.


http://www.parque4x4.com.ar/recibidos/uro/

Looks good ,a cheaper version of the Hummer or what??About the only difference I can see is the dash board layout?? Next question.When are they making a civvie version??:D

Stimpyone

Clare gunner wrote:

Looks good ,a cheaper version of the Hummer or what??About the only difference I can see is the dash board layout?? Next question.When are they making a civvie version??:D

Word is they are better that the Hummer ( standard version and marine )which was trialed earlier this year AFSIK. Standard roof ring for weapons mount too.

babybundy

punchdrunk wrote:

last i heard DF were testing up armoured hummers/mowag variant in the curragh

i thought they looked at hummers a few years ago and said no because of size and running cost think of it back roads , old forestry roads

Dub13

The hummer does something like 11-13 miles per gallon.This is simple unsustainable.

Maskhadov

Stimpyone wrote:

Word is they are better that the Hummer ( standard version and marine )which was trialed earlier this year AFSIK. Standard roof ring for weapons mount too.

Hummer ??? oh my god, where is Homer and Bart ??? Its humvee... driving around in a hummer sounds like a simpsons episode.

I would rather go for the Humvee or Eagle than the spanish vehicle.

Stimpyone

Maskhadov wrote:

Hummer ??? oh my god, where is Homer and Bart ??? Its humvee... driving around in a hummer sounds like a simpsons episode..

Yeah sorry Humvee... Apparently the lads trialing it are calling the Spanish version the Euro Jeep.

Maskhadov wrote:

I would rather go for the Humvee or Eagle than the spanish vehicle.

Why so? Do you know some thing we don't. discussion about it on IMO. Those lads would know more about it than I.

piraka

Dub13 wrote:

The hummer does something like 11-13 miles per gallon.This is simple unsustainable.

I'm sure that these beasts would be able to use biofuels.

Clare gunner

Dub13 wrote:

The hummer does something like 11-13 miles per gallon.This is simple unsustainable.

Hmm the civvie version does somthing like 20/22 mpg.Why would the military version do less?Also it is diesel.so yes it should be able to run on with the proper modifications to the engine .diesel,bio diesel,veg oil,veg waste oil,eth/diesel.That is at least the plan with the US forces by the year 2012,that their transport and tanks,etc should be 90% multi fuel capable.
Trouble with the Humvee/hummer in civvie speak is it's size.It is the width of an m1a1 Abrams MBT.It is supposedly designed to ride in the m1a1s tracks to keep up with them or somthing like that.Which would make it a tad large for here.

Stimpyone

Clare gunner wrote:

Hmm the civvie version does somthing like 20/22 mpg.Why would the military version do less?Also it is diesel.so yes it should be able to run on with the proper modifications to the engine .diesel,bio diesel,veg oil,veg waste oil,eth/diesel.That is at least the plan with the US forces by the year 2012,that their transport and tanks,etc should be 90% multi fuel capable.
Trouble with the Humvee/hummer in civvie speak is it's size.It is the width of an m1a1 Abrams MBT.It is supposedly designed to ride in the m1a1s tracks to keep up with them or somthing like that.Which would make it a tad large for here.

Apparently the Humvee is the same width as the Mowag Piranha. The "Euro Jeep" is smaller. There's a picture of it ( on IMO ) taken from the top deck of a Dublin Bus driving around Christchurch, seems to fit nicely into the lanes.

FiSe

I still don't know what you have against both, Hummer and HUMVEE

But Defender is choice of light vehicle of many armed forces on the continent /as first named vehicle is little bit "too" american/. I am not saying it's bad. Together with some heavier stuff ofcourse.

If you thinking about overseas operations, wheeled APC, like Mowag, does grand. Some larger calibre gun on top of few of them is the right question to ask, though...

And, let's be honest, for money transports, Nissan is the way to go.

babybundy

Clare gunner wrote:

It is supposedly designed to ride in the m1a1s tracks to keep up with them or somthing like that.Which would make it a tad large for here.

thats to do with land mines
we need 2 types 4x4's here one heavily armoured like the hummer or eagle and one like the defender because of the irish roads

Clare gunner

What would you folks think of the Mercedes G wagon as a replacement for Nissans?I am not talking of the pansified chips with everything movie star model.But say a 80s style,all mechanical,rubber matted,stripped down to milspec with a non chipped big diesel and auto/ir manual box.Comes std with independant lockable fnt/rear diffs,low range on the fly selector box.In and all appx 16 gear selections,from low low crawler to 140kph on road?
Just that INMHO mercedes built the ultimate 4wd about 20 years ago,and due to its cost no one was intrested!Also do you prefer in a military sit a chips with everything engine or somthing that can be fixed with a hammer and socket set?

Maskhadov

we need this as a replacement for the nissans

punchdrunk

true...would be handy for the finglas ATM run alright...

babybundy

ya i can see it now the atm hanging out the back after being ripped out of the wall with a jcb:D

Maskhadov

Currently the Defence Forces operate 1 GPMG at section level (9 soldiers). Military thinking is to have far more fire teams with smaller calibre weapons. So hopefully the DF will follow suit and acquire a new 5.56mm squad automatic weapon at section level. Two per section level (moving the GPMG to platoon level)

babybundy

thats some thing i have always said in a section there should be 1 gpmg 1 saw various styres and the 2icshould have a long barreled weapon

cushtac

Maskhadov wrote:

Currently the Defence Forces operate 1 GPMG at section level (9 soldiers). Military thinking is to have far more fire teams with smaller calibre weapons. So hopefully the DF will follow suit and acquire a new 5.56mm squad automatic weapon at section level. Two per section level (moving the GPMG to platoon level)

This may happen for units deploying overseas, they're also looking at various ways to improve & lighten the GPMG.

babybundy

thats easy get rid of it from the section

cushtac

babybundy wrote:

thats easy get rid of it from the section

How does that improve the weapon itself?

They're looking at ways to make the weapon more effective and easier to carry, changing it's role in the platoon won't do that.

babybundy

it means i dont have to listen to the ptes complain when carrying it

cushtac

So they'll complain about something else instead.

Maskhadov

There is nothing wrong with the GPMG. But its not very light and easy to carry when doing Fighting in Built up Areas. The Minimi is an excellent weapon.

Dub13

Maskhadov wrote:

There is nothing wrong with the GPMG.But its not very light and easy to carry when doing Fighting in Built up Areas.

As the GPMG man in my old section I have the agree with the above 100%.

cushtac

Maskhadov wrote:

There is nothing wrong with the GPMG. But its not very light and easy to carry when doing Fighting in Built up Areas.

Which is why they're looking at ways to lighten it - collapsing buttstocks, fluted barrels, use of lighter materials etc. They're also mulling over putting a sight on it.

Who said there was anything wrong with the Mag? If the DF thought so they would have replaced it by now.

Maskhadov

Most western armies have the Minimi at section level. They obviously reckon its a better option

cushtac

As I've said, the Army is considering getting a 5.56mm machine gun for overseas deployments. This is down to the fact that troops are more likely to be using APC's when overseas.

Manic Moran

A Hummer's width is more of an end result than a design goal. It just came out that way.

Why?

Look under a Hummer. Then look under any other 4x4. All that stuff related to powering the wheels, (the transmission, differential, clutch, whatever) has to go somewhere. To get the massive ground clearance, it all had to go up, which meant either making the whole vehicle higher, with accompanying stability problems, or making a gap in the middle by moving the sides outwards. This is why the vehicle is massive on the outside, but incredibly cramped on the inside.

NTM

Morpheus

minimi fires 5.56
MAG (GPMG) fires 7.62

personal preference in a fire fight is 7.62, you hit someone with that they wont get up and walk away, they may hop carrying their leg under their arm though. GPMG fired 7.62 makes most armour look like swiss cheese.

Having been on target ranges, raising and lowering the targets, believe me when i tell you that you know when someone is throwing rocks instead of pebbles.

I can see the choice of minimi though, for covering fire, it doesnt really matter if your firing a minimi or gpmg as with that many rounds snapping over an enemys head, he doesnt care what the round is being shot from and admittedly I would definitely prefer a much lighter version of the MAG if it was possible, as it is a biatch to carry.

cushtac

This has been mentioned more than once:



It's a lightened MAG that the Swedes have been experimenting with, details of which can be found at http://www.bellum.nu/armoury/Ksp58DF.html

babybundy

plus if you use the minimi at section level you can carry more ammo as the 5.56 is lighter and you only carry one type of ammo

Maskhadov

babybundy wrote:

plus if you use the minimi at section level you can carry more ammo as the 5.56 is lighter and you only carry one type of ammo

Lighter ammo just means you will carry more of it

The thing

The Defence Forces bought 500 new FN Mag's some while ago, so I don't think they are in a hurry to replace them. The US army want their Mag's back in service as the Minimi doesn't pack the same punch. The US army built their version of the FN Mag under licence from Belguim and included many upgrades including new gas plugs, plastic barrel grips, sights and folding stocks.
What is needed for the Army is more medical equipment and field hospitals. I don't think the one in Liberia will come home! They could do with about 3 for training and deployment purposes.
The Engineers should have some proper armoured vehicles and proper engineering vehicles for long range patrolling abroad. They currently have none.
The DFTC should have a proper FIBUA village. When you consider you can build a basic house shell for as little as 10,000 Euros, a complete village could be built for under one million Euro's.
The new Nissan GR's are fine for Ireland but should not be deployed overseas. The army should be looking for a small utility truck like the Steyr Pinnzucher vehicle (spelling?) it's not only troops that have to be protected but stores and equipment also.
I know this isn't army equipment but the Air Corps need to paint the Aluettes the same colour of the Eurocopters and Agustas.

armchairninja

The thing wrote:

I know this isn't army equipment but the Air Corps need to paint the Aluettes the same colour of the Eurocopters and Agustas.

I was actually thinking last night when i saw a pic of a Dauphin, an Alouette and a Gazelle flying in formation, why they decided to paint the Eurocopter and AW 139 Green

All the other aircraft bar the CASA and the AW 139 are a silver or white, just wondering why they newer airdraft are painted this colour, is it because they are primarily going to be used for Army Co-op or what?

EDIT: Sorry for being slightly off topic!

cushtac

The thing wrote:

The DFTC should have a proper FIBUA village. When you consider you can build a basic house shell for as little as 10,000 Euros, a complete village could be built for under one million Euro's.

The Civil Defence's 'Ballybruscar' training area in the Pheonix Park would be ideal, it's up for sale too.

The thing wrote:

The army should be looking for a small utility truck like the Steyr Pinnzucher vehicle (spelling?) it's not only troops that have to be protected but stores and equipment also.

Pinzgauers (aptly named after an Austrian mountain cow) are indeed great little movers, was fortunate enough to have a jaunt in a privately-held one in the UK & can testify it lives up to the name. The Brits are getting an armoured version of the 6 x 6.

An alternative would be the Mowag Duro, which the EOD are currently using.

babybundy

The thing wrote:

The DFTC should have a proper FIBUA village. When you consider you can build a basic house shell for as little as 10,000 Euros, a complete village could be built for under one million Euro's.
QUOTE]
to my knowlage there is talks of building one in kilworth co. cork as fort davis is to small and not enough buildings fun tunnels tho:D

cushtac

Apart from the new HK pistols (which I'm surpised no-one's mentioned here) the PDF is to get ESS Profile goggles and Lowe Alpine rucksacks on personal issue.

Nice to see the money is being spent on kit for the individual soldier as well as vehicles and equipment.

muletide

cushtac wrote:

Apart from the new HK pistols (which I'm surpised no-one's mentioned here) the PDF is to get ESS Profile goggles and Lowe Alpine rucksacks on personal issue.

Nice to see the money is being spent on kit for the individual soldier as well as vehicles and equipment.

In fairness to the DF money has always, last 12 years, been prioritised to the individual soldiers kit. This is nothing new. Every time Irish soldiers go overseas or on foreign courses they are the envy of many armies for the standard of their personal kit.And I dont mean third world countries I mean the British, French Austrailians and many other professional armies.

cushtac

They have bought some muck though, like the crap Matterhorns & cheapo Chinese webbing.

If the Lowe Alpine stuff is of the same quality as their commercial bags then the DF have chosen well.

EDITED TO ADD: You are right about overseas issue & the envy factor. I remember a friend of mine going to Cyprus some years ago and getting issued the lightweight greens. Over there they were serving alongside Brits who were wearing second-hand tropical combats. The Brits were indeed envious of the Irish kit & scale of issue.

Mick86

cushtac wrote:

They have bought some muck though, like the crap Matterhorns & cheapo Chinese webbing.

I thought the Matterhorns excellent. The Chinese webbing was on test and failed. The DF has a problem in that it awards contracts to Irish companies who sub contract to eastern sweatshops and so we get crap gear.

HST

Clare gunner wrote:

Errr,not trying to rain on the parade.But is it practible to have a squradron of Leo 2's in Ireland????Or any MBT for that matter,we are not exactly tank country.[Open plains,desert,etc] Apart from possibly Lenister and the Curragh plains?We have narrow roads,bogs,rocky outcrops,boreens,etc.And even good grassland or arable land can be wet for six months of the year,and it will even bog down agricultural equipment,what will it do to a sixty ton MBT?Not only do you need the tanks you need heavy recovery equipment and transporters to shift if stuck or move quickly on the road. More expense.What is it ,three ancilary service vechicles for two tanks?Wheeld armour seems to be the way to go in Ireland.We did have INMHO an exellent maid of all work,albeit expensive and stupidly converted to ambulances.The Mercedes G wagon.wonder what ever happened to those two ambulance G wagons ?

Thank you someone with a bit of sense.

The MOWAGS are a great vehicle no one here should be saying anything bad about them. Sure it can be crap when your overseas and sitting in one for five hours as part of a convoy but they get you there in one piece and are a reliable piece of equipment.

Manic Moran

HST wrote:

Thank you someone with a bit of sense.

As a tanker, I actually disagree with him on the operational/tactical side. I think MBTs can have a very arguable purpose in Ireland, both for domestic defense and foreign (UN etc) operations. For example, Farmer Bob's tractor sinking in the field doesn't really say very much about tankability when his 1.5-ton tractor's exerting about a 30PSI ground pressure footprint vs 15PSI for the heaviest 70-ton M1 Abrams variant. (Figures found after a little Googling). Bridges would be another issue, but how many of Ireland's rivers aren't fordable? Bowling-green 4km ranges such as the desert are not going to happen, obviously, but most modern tanks were designed for Germany which is kindof obstructed as well.

I agree with him on the practical side of cost, however: A squadron of tanks really wouldn't be enough, you'd need a regiment for any tangible benefit, splitting one squadron between each of the Brigades, leaving one for either training or foreign ops. For that many vehicles, you're talking serious amounts of cash which Ireland isn't in a position to spend given the current budget and priorities.

NTM