R.O.T weigh ins

topdog8

was just wondering when a fighter would have to weigh in for a R.O.T fight. i know the league u have to weigh in on the same day but was just wondering is the R.O.T the same.

Clive

Day before weigh-ins are pretty standard for pro shows and ROT is no different!

topdog8

Clive wrote:

Day before weigh-ins are pretty standard for pro shows and ROT is no different!

Thats sweet cos i was wondering if it would be the same rules as most pro fights. the things is when i entered into the league and rules were that weigh ins were on the same day.
I had alot of hard work to do to get the weight down to fight in it.
I was thinking it would be so much easier to get down 10 to 15 lbs the day befor by dehydrating and the day of the fight u should easily be able to replenish ur electrolytes and be fighting fit although im sure u wouldn be 100% if u had of done it all by dieting

RealJohn

I know it's standard all over the world but day-before weigh-ins really defeat the purpose of weigh-ins at all in my opinion. What's the point in claiming you fight at a certain weight when everyone knows full well that that isn't what you weigh. It becomes more about how much of an advantage you can gain by dropping a crazy amount of weight.

I can't deny I'm as guilty as anyone of it but I still think it's stupid.

(this is not a dig at John or the organisers of any other promotion by the way. I just think the whole situation is stupid)

Budo.Judo.Kev

BJJ competitios are same day weigh in, and in the european open you had to weigh in just before you fought as far as i know.

remember rehydration for most atletes accounts for a kilo or two not a stone or two.

RealJohn

I've done a stone in the past or close to it and I'm not exactly an elite athlete who closely monitors his diet.

(and I'm a 70kg fighter, according to my weigh-in , so it's not like I have a huge amount of bodymass to dehyrate. A heavyweight could easily drop over and stone and put it back on with no ill-effects)

Clive

Budo.Judo.Kev wrote:

remember rehydration for most atletes accounts for a kilo or two not a stone or two.

In Ireland there are guys cutting 5-10kgs, never mind at an international level.

Even at grappling tournaments you see guys dehydrating themselves (often less than an hour before they'll compete) to make weight, so I'd rather see people have a chance to put the fluid back in, especially with striking involved.

I do like the BJJ system of weighing in just before you step on the mat, but it's not practical for MMA.

Dragan

RealJohn wrote:

I know it's standard all over the world but day-before weigh-ins really defeat the purpose of weigh-ins at all in my opinion. What's the point in claiming you fight at a certain weight when everyone knows full well that that isn't what you weigh.

People will always fight in the lowest weightclass they can cut too, this is too there advantage....as such, whether the fight is that day or the day after the weight most fighters will still try and cut the same amount....it is safer to have them weigh in the day before, and have around 24 hours to rehydrate and replace electrolytes to have them weight in and fight that same day depleted and dehydrated.

The advantage of the extra ability to cut weight is there for everyone, as is the added safety of day before weight ins.

Budo.Judo.Kev

Clive,

My point was the difference in weight between 7pm on the Friday and 12pm on the Saturday wouldn't be much more than 2kg for a typical ring of truth fighter. Am I actually way off the mark with this?

Clive

Well there's lots of different levels and weights in every promotion, so I don't know about a "typical" guy, but as I say there are plenty of guys dropping 5-10kgs and putting it back on before they hit the ring.

I don't think that there's many people stupid enough to cut more weight than they can put back on for fight-time.

cavedave

A quick google revealed this
http://www.dca.ca.gov/csac/press_releases/1223_weightstudy.pdf

Basically it says that in boxing day before weigh ins might be a bad idea because
1. Full rehydration can take three days
2. Glove thicknesses are based on a particular weight if you gain 10kg the gloves may not be thck enough.
3. Putting your body through the stress of dehdration/rehydration may not be ideal for people trying to knock each other unconscious.

I am dubious as to the advantage of thin gloves in reducing serious injury.

Tim_Murphy

I think some people are going to cut weight no matter what, a same day weigh in won't change that. I really don't see the problem with cutting anyway.

When reasonably fit I weigh about 69kgs, down to 67/68 if I'm training a bit harder. When I started competing in MMA it was at 70kgs and was reluctant to go back to 65kgs (found it really hard to do when I competed in TKD/kickboxing), but it just doesn't make sense for me to fight at 70 as there are some relatively huge guys at that weight.

Dieting and cutting weight is just a part of the fight game, I don't think its a problem or is harmful, provided people know what they are doing. I can get down to featherweight now relatively easy compared to maybe three years ago, because back then I hadn't a clue how to do it and I was getting some seriously bad advice (i.e. coach telling us to be at fight weight a week before a day before weight in! )

john kavanagh

Tim_Murphy wrote:

(i.e. coach telling us to be at fight weight a week before a day before weight in! )

lol:D

Tim_Murphy

lol

I know! I laugh now but we really didn't have a clue then. The last kickboxing WC I competed in, I ended up weighing at at 62.5 kgs for the 65kg division. Had a relatively easy first round match and was still f^&ked after it. I'm better at 'cheating' to make weight now, so long as the promotors don't find out about it I should be ok! Oh wait...:)

Dragan

cavedave wrote:

I am dubious as to the advantage of thin gloves in reducing serious injury.

Thats a different kettle of fish to the weighs ins.....and it can take 3 days for the body to rehydrate from a state of total dehyrdration. Fighters are not, or at least should not, be cutting water to the point where it can affect body function, merely body weight. If the former is happeneing then they are cutting too much, and there coach should be spotting this.

As for the thinner gloves, just look at the injury history in Licencse MMA orgs and the rule set.......it's a far safer set up than boxing. For example :

Boxing Match :
FIghter A delivers uppercut to Fighter B, fighter B goes down, ref starts counting....fighter B stands up at 4, is given to 8, fighter resumes. Fighter A drops fighter B again, fighter B manages to stand at 6, is given to 8, fighter resumes........


MMA Match
Fighter A delivers a sweet over hand right to Fighter B, fighter B goes down. Fighter A follows him, lands 2 more shots and the ref ends the fight.

cavedave

Fighters are not, or at least should not, be cutting water to the point where it can affect body function,

I googled "dehydration effect human performance" and most of the papers give a 2-3% body weight loss as effecting performance. This puts it at about 2kg loss of weight which most fighters would be cutting.

it can take 3 days for the body to rehydrate from a state of total dehyrdration.

Do you have evidence for this? The article I posted gave the three day figure for moderate dehydration.

As for the thinner gloves I agree with you based on the theory that a small number of hard hits is less damaging then a larger number of padded hits.

Dragan

cavedave wrote:

I googled "dehydration effect human performance" and most of the papers give a 2-3% body weight loss as effecting performance. This puts it at about 2kg loss of weight which most fighters would be cutting.

You confusing action performed while dehyrated and actions performed while rehydrated. The difference is massive. Once again, if a fighter is dehydrating to a point where they cannot rehydrate effectively for there fight then they are cutting to the wrong weight class.

A fighter does not dehydrate and fight dehydrated.

cavedave wrote:

Do you have evidence for this? The article I posted gave the three day figure for moderate dehydration.

The below is a good paper on the effect of a simple 3 hour rehydration scheme......remember that it is JUST 3 hours and see the results given. This also points out the importance of rehydrating with a decent electrolyte replacement formula.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3042742&dopt=Abstract

Roper

Dragan wrote:

This also points out the importance of rehydrating with a decent electrolyte replacement formula.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3042742&dopt=Abstract

The bestest drink for rehydration is Coke. All the essential sugars and caffeine you need to get you buzzing again...:D

I'm a bit of an avid reader of boxing books and novels, and I once came across a weight cutting tale (alledged) involving "The Hands of Stone" Roberto Duran. He was defending his title in a rematch against Sugar Ray Leonard, pound for pound one of the greatest boxers of all time, certainly of the last 25 years. Anyway, Duran had lived the high life since winning the title, and as a result was way overweight in the weeks before the fight. He had a none too helpful entourage, many of whom knew little about boxing, and his training camp in the run in was something of a circus. With a few days to go, he was way above the welterweight poundage he was aiming for.
According to one journalist, one of his training camp recommended diuretics to help him cut, which Duran used in conjunction with starvation and dehydration. Once he stepped off the scales having made weight, he immediately scoffed oranges! His diet then consisted of large dinners, big steaks etc.
The fight happens and its in boxing history as the "no mas" incident. According to the same journalist, Duran went back to the dressing room in some discomfort, went to the toilet (!) and came out looking ready to fight again! The journalists version is that Duran was suffering from extreme indigestion!!!
Anyway, he probably shedded the entourage after that as he went on to claim another title at middleweight, and again a few years ago at super-middleweight.

Just a weight cutting anecdote (one version of the story) to show that even the pros get it wrong!:)

cavedave

We measured plasma renin activity (PRA) and aldosterone levels (PA)

Is this a good measure for fight sports where rehydration has to take place in the tissues that act as padding rather then just the blood?

You confusing action performed while dehyrated and actions performed while rehydrated.

I am querying the ability to rehydrate your tissues, particulalry those that protect the brain rapidly.

Put it this way, a large amount of hangover is dehydration. You can wake up with a dehydration feeling hangover drink lots of water until your peeing clear again and still have a hangover. This implies that osmoregulation kicks in before water gets into all the brains tissues. That is a very sketchy argument but we have all experienced it.

So how long does it take for the all the bodies tissues to fully rehydrate after losing say 5% to dehydration?

Dragan

cavedave wrote:

Put it this way, a large amount of hangover is dehydration. You can wake up with a dehydration feeling hangover drink lots of water until your peeing clear again and still have a hangover. This implies that osmoregulation kicks in before water gets into all the brains tissues. That is a very sketchy argument but we have all experienced it.

The hangover argument is moot.....you can't argue a hangover as being "dehydration", or the effects the next day as being "dehydration effects". Thats ignoring the effects of alchohol on the nervous and endocrinal system, and also the other chemicals contained with the beverage dranks......so yes, it is a hugely sketchy argument.

cavedave wrote:

So how long does it take for the all the bodies tissues to fully rehydrate after losing say 5% to dehydration?

I am unsure where you are getting

a) The overt depletion of tissues due to dehydrating for a fight
b) that plasma hydration levels and tissue hydration levels are somehow independant?

With respect to a), most fighters would not be cutting to the point of affect tissue hydration levels to a huge degree....the majority of water lost during a dehyrating cut is subcutaneous. Sure, a percentage would come from tissue, but nothing major....once again, if this is occuring to get a fighter into a certain weight range it is the job of that persons coach or fight prep consultant to spot this and ensure they are not fighting in the wrong weight class.

A clever diet plan would have a fighter close enough to contest weight anyway....by spending a few days cutting down on carbs, and watching sodium intake the ammount of water stored within the muscle tissue would drop considerably....a final stage of heat and water deprivation dehydration should get you the rest of the way to fight weight.

After weigh in you would then have your sodium/electrolyte replacement and follow this with a controlled High GI carb up to replenish lost muscle glycogen and water and then away you go.

I am not disagreeing with you that excessive water cutting is not bad for fighters, i am simply saying that excessive water cutting should not be occuring, ya see????

b) Plasma hydration levels and tissue hydration levels would be very closely linked imo opinion....so given the breakout of point a, yes, imo blood hydration levels would be a good indicator for sports.

This is only my opinion, and i am not a doctor, so take it as you will

Clive

Dave,

Most dehydration/rehydration studies involve children, I can't give exact figure, but on an anecdotal side, when I've cut weight, I've been peeing clear the night of the weigh-in, so that's 20+ hours before fight time.

Tim_Murphy

was just wondering when a fighter would have to weigh in for a R.O.T fight. i know the league u have to weigh in on the same day but was just wondering is the R.O.T the same.

So anyway, are we going to see some CHKD guys competing in future ROTs so???

john kavanagh

Clive wrote:

Dave,

Most dehydration/rehydration studies involve children, I can't give exact figure, but on an anecdotal side, when I've cut weight, I've been peeing clear the night of the weigh-in, so that's 20+ hours before fight time.

so they've done studies where they dehydrate children??

cavedave

so they've done studies where they dehydrate children??

A major cause of death in the third world in children is diarrhea leading to dehydration and death. I would guess the studies were on the ability to rehydrate these sick children once they come in.

In relation to weight ins in boxing

Barry McGuigan: Same day weigh-ins 'Weigh-ins should be put back so fighters can't cheat the scales. At the moment they take place at 2pm the Friday before a fight, which gives boxers more than 24hours to binge and put weight back on. A boxer who weighs in at 9st 13lb could easily be as heavy as 11st 4lb at fight time. This can make contests uneven and there are also health issues.' Barry McGuigan is a former featherweight world champ.

a really interesting article on weighins and dehydration is at http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/1109776.stm

Clive

john kavanagh wrote:

so they've done studies where they dehydrate children??

LOL, no they study kids with diarrhea, that's what oral electrolyte solutions are generally meant to be used for apparently - and here was me thinking they were just for people who wanted to bash each other!