Absolute Oneness of Almighty vs x + y + z = 1 ~ 3

T-1111111111111

1 = ?
1 + 1 + 1 = ?

The basic belief or basic misconception? The pillar of faith or an illusive delusion? Actual or just grammatic contradictions?

There are so many Biblical passages teaching God is only One and without any partners. This is a basic premise throughout the entire teaching of the Bible. The many explicit passages clearly declare this as a cardinal truth.
Each of the following 27 passages explicitly teach that there is one — and only one — true and living God. Interesting is that word Lord does not always represent The Almighty, however word LORD does.

I would like to find the best definition of the trinity to shed some light on this absolute mystery - if possible. A few important verses on oneness of God are quoted below.


1. DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightiest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
2. DEUTERONOMY 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]
3. DEUTERONOMY 32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
4. 2 SAMUEL 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
5. 1 KINGS 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
6. 2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.
7. 2 KINGS 19:15 — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwells between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
8. NEHEMIAH 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preserves them all; and the host of heaven worship thee.
9. PSALM 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
10. PSALM 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.
11. ISAIAH 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwells between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.
12. ISAIAH 43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.
13. ISAIAH 44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
14. ISAIAH 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.
15. ISAIAH 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.
16. HOSEA 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.
17. JOEL 2:27 — And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
18. ZECHARIAH 14:9 — And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
19. MARK 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
20. JOHN 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
21. ROMANS 3:30 — Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcised through faith.
22. 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6 — As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
23. GALATIANS 3:20 — Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
24. EPHESIANS 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
25. 1 TIMOTHY 1:17 — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be Honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
26. 1 TIMOTHY 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
27. JAMES 2:19 — Thou believes that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Asiaprod

T-1111111111111 wrote:

I would like to find the best definition of the trinity to shed some light on this absolute mystery - if possible. A few important verses on oneness of God are quoted below.

Hum, I bet this question gets asked more times. Well here is a little insight I found to the importance associated with the number three.
The number three has always been a favorite of humans. The triangle has three sides and is one of the most pleasing shapes to the human mind. We need at least three points for triangulation so that you GPS system works in your car. Sometimes three can be considered a not so good a thing such as; “two is company; three is a crowd!” But generally all cultures hold the number three in very high regard.
In Christianity there is the Holly Trinity and those three wise men in the story. In the Hindu Faith we have Trimurti or Hindu Trinity, telling of the parts of God; The Creator Brahma, The Preserver Vishmu and the Detroyer Shiva. One could say “three” is a number of balance. In binary code 3 = 11 and one is universally significant to all cultures. In Greek mythology three is also known well for instance many of the mythological creatures indeed had three heads or had multiples of three. There was Cerberus, a dog with three heads and Scylla, which was a vicious sea monster with six heads.
In Chinese culture the number three holds significance too. The Mayans had three calendars that they used. Three is significant in Culture, Religion, Math and art; for instance three primary colors. Gemini is the third astrology sign and it represents many positive attributes. In politics we often speak of the “third way” or an alternate choice or solution, one which makes our minds think for a more fitting answer which is fair for all concerned.

Slav

T-1111111111111 wrote:

The many explicit passages clearly declare this as a cardinal truth. Each of the following 27 passages explicitly teach that there is one — and only one — true and living God.

None of these contradicts with the Christian dogmatic theology. Moreover, all of them were carefully studied and considered by Christians in the first few centuries AC when teachings about the Trinity were formalised.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Interesting is that word Lord does not always represent The Almighty, however word LORD does.

I’m terribly sorry but I did not get this point. Is the upper/lower case is the only difference? The majority of verses you quoting were written in Hebrew and Greek. Were Hebrew and Greek case-sensitive or case-insensitive languages?

T-1111111111111 wrote:

1 = ?
1 + 1 + 1 = ?

As far as the Holy Trinity dispute is concerned, these formulae (1+1+1=something) are as old as the hills. In those ancient times Christians used to say to masters of arithmetic that not 1+1+1=3 and not 1+1+1=1 but 1*1*1=1. Sometimes they used certain allegories to explain what they meant by Trinity (very simple therefore not perfect but ok as a starting point). For example they used to say that there is one Sun. It emits the light that we can see and the warmth that we can feel. The warmth and the sunlight cannot exist without Sun and Sun cannot exist without producing light and warmth.
The source of the confusion is that the Bible just names these 3 entities but does not explicitly tell Christians the nature of their relationships. It took a lot of effort for the scholars to do their research and to defend their position in theological disputes. We can say that by 381 AC the Christians formalised the concept of Trinity (actually with one exception that came up later but still can be seen as an open issue, see the filioque dispute between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholics). Practically any information about the first two Councils (325 and 381) will shed more light on the topic.

T-1111111111111

Slav wrote:

None of these contradicts with the Christian dogmatic theology. Moreover, all of them were carefully studied and considered by Christians in the first few centuries AC when teachings about the Trinity were formalised.


I’m terribly sorry but I did not get this point. Is the upper/lower case is the only difference? The majority of verses you quoting were written in Hebrew and Greek. Were Hebrew and Greek case-sensitive or case-insensitive languages?


As far as the Holy Trinity dispute is concerned, these formulae (1+1+1=something) are as old as the hills. In those ancient times Christians used to say to masters of arithmetic that not 1+1+1=3 and not 1+1+1=1 but 1*1*1=1. Sometimes they used certain allegories to explain what they meant by Trinity (very simple therefore not perfect but ok as a starting point). For example they used to say that there is one Sun. It emits the light that we can see and the warmth that we can feel. The warmth and the sunlight cannot exist without Sun and Sun cannot exist without producing light and warmth.
The source of the confusion is that the Bible just names these 3 entities but does not explicitly tell Christians the nature of their relationships. It took a lot of effort for the scholars to do their research and to defend their position in theological disputes. We can say that by 381 AC the Christians formalised the concept of Trinity (actually with one exception that came up later but still can be seen as an open issue, see the filioque dispute between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholics). Practically any information about the first two Councils (325 and 381) will shed more light on the topic.

I see....so its not 1+1+1=? but 1*1*1=?. How bout usin' a triple integral and we might see then what we get?

About the word L/l-ord. iF IT WAS TRANSLATED AS LORD (as capital letters in english or probably also in other non-original bible languages, THEN THEY MEANT GOD, HOWEVER IF IT WAS lord THEN IT MEANT A LOFTY TITLE AND NOT GOD.
but since u use english Bible then of course you don't really have the original and can't use it.

Matthew 18:23-34, Luke 19:11-21, and John 20:26-29
Many of Jesus' disciples referred to Jesus as "Lord". Even Jesus himself said that he is their lord. But does this mean that he is their God? If you read the three short stories above then you will realize that back in the Biblical time period most servants referred to their masters as "lord". This was a common practice because it showed honor and respect for a person of such high stature.

Also, even today in many countries around the world such as England, "lord" is used in referring to kings, princes, and others who "deserve" such a lofty title. The disciples and followers of Jesus viewed him as their earthy master and themselves as his servants. He was a man from God who brought them God's message of truth, justice, and peace.

Schuhart

T-1111111111111 wrote:

I see....so its not 1+1+1=? but 1*1*1=?. How bout usin' a triple integral and we might see then what we get?

You'll understand this isn't really my gig, as in this context my view is 1=1+1+1=1*1*1=0.

But I thought that theists typically saw God as all powerful, hence any contradiction could be explained away on the basis that we could not possibly understand the full majesty of divine intention.

Are you saying that God is subject to the rules of the material universe, and hence a Trinity is especially unbelieveable? Clearly, you are open to believe what you like. I'm just interested in knowing where you are coming from on this.

aidan24326

Asiaprod wrote:

Hum, I bet this question gets asked more times. Well here is a little insight I found to the importance associated with the number three.
The number three has always been a favorite of humans. The triangle has three sides and is one of the most pleasing shapes to the human mind. We need at least three points for triangulation so that you GPS system works in your car. Sometimes three can be considered a not so good a thing such as; “two is company; three is a crowd!” But generally all cultures hold the number three in very high regard.
In Christianity there is the Holly Trinity and those three wise men in the story. In the Hindu Faith we have Trimurti or Hindu Trinity, telling of the parts of God; The Creator Brahma, The Preserver Vishmu and the Detroyer Shiva. One could say “three” is a number of balance. In binary code 3 = 11 and one is universally significant to all cultures. In Greek mythology three is also known well for instance many of the mythological creatures indeed had three heads or had multiples of three. There was Cerberus, a dog with three heads and Scylla, which was a vicious sea monster with six heads.
In Chinese culture the number three holds significance too. The Mayans had three calendars that they used. Three is significant in Culture, Religion, Math and art; for instance three primary colors. Gemini is the third astrology sign and it represents many positive attributes. In politics we often speak of the “third way” or an alternate choice or solution, one which makes our minds think for a more fitting answer which is fair for all concerned.

All very nice. But what does any of this have to do with the OP's question? You've listed a few little coincidences of where 3 is seen to have some importance within a limited context. The same could be done for other numbers. What relevance does this have to the idea of a holy trinity? (which personally I've always though to be one of the more bizarre ideas in christian doctrine). It is contradictory to the idea of God as supreme being.

Slav

T-1111111111111 wrote:

I see....so its not 1+1+1=? but 1*1*1=?. How bout usin' a triple integral and we might see then what we get?

Err.. I can’t see a smilie here so I’m not sure are serious here or just kidding. What do you mean by triple integral, how would you use it in this context? Where is/are the function(s)?
Anyway, let me explain it, just to be on a safe side. What 1*1*1=1 really shows is that you won’t go very far in math modelling of Trinity especially with such a primitive mathematical apparatus as arithmetic.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

About the word L/l-ord. iF IT WAS TRANSLATED AS LORD (as capital letters in english or probably also in other non-original bible languages, THEN THEY MEANT GOD, HOWEVER IF IT WAS lord THEN IT MEANT A LOFTY TITLE AND NOT GOD.

Obviously it has been introduced during translation to help the reader. Millions of Christians never saw it and were never concerned about it.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

since u use english Bible then of course you don't really have the original and can't use it

It’s not that hard to get them if desired.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Many of Jesus' disciples referred to Jesus as "Lord". Even Jesus himself said that he is their lord. But does this mean that he is their God?

No, not really, but at the same time it does not mean the opposite. After all, Christians believe that He was a Human; this is one of the fundamentals of their faith.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

He was a man from God who brought them God's message of truth, justice, and peace.

This is not the full story according to the Bible. For example check the very verse you mentioned above, John 20:28. Thomas called Him "my God" and Jesus accepted that. Not to mention John 1, the theological explanation of who is Jesus. One can spot a lot of similar places in New Testament (or even Old Testament) if reads them carefully.