[article]'fascist fanaticism and radicalism is now rife amoung our young'

mike65

The Sunday Tribune has a couple of pieces on the "threat from within" the bulk of the articles is based around the thoughts of Sheikh Dr Shaheed Satardien, the chief religous leader to the Supreme Muslim Council of Ireland.

He paints a very gloomy not to say worring portrait of Muslims in thier twenties living two lives one here and one in Pakistan, unfortunatly it the latter which is dominating attitudes.

ONE of Ireland's most senior Islamic clerics has warned of an "ocean of extremism" spreading through young Irish Muslims. Sheikh Dr Shaheed Satardien, the chief religous leader to the Supreme Muslim Council of Ireland, said that Ireland is now a "haven for fundamentalism" and warned that moderate leaders are fighting a battle to contain the spread of extremist teachings here.

Satardien blamed poor leadership by Islamic leaders and Irish government inaction for the radicalisation of young Muslims here. Speaking to the Sunday Tribune this weekend from his Dublin home, the wellrespected moderate cleric warned that a significant number of young Islamic men are now spending lengthy periods of the year travelling to and from the homelands of their parents, including Pakistan, where young western Muslims are dragged into al-Qaeda paramilitary training regimes.

"Irish Muslim leaders are failing our young people who are embracing fundamentalism. It is happening at a remarkable speed before our eyes. . . fascist fanaticism and radicalism is now rife amoung our young, " Satardien said.

The full articles can be acessed by registering at www.tribune.ie

Mike.

Hobbes

Post has been moved to humanities. You can discuss it there. The Islam forum is not for these kinds of posts.

InFront

Im not sure what to think of that...

I would never have described anti-westernism as being 'rife' among young Muslims here. I wonder what is causing him to say so? Sheikh Shaheed Satardien was an important man behind the Danish caricature peaceful protest march earlier on in the year and I know is a man who many Muslims have great respect for, myself included.
There is a definite bad feeling about military decisions towards the Middle East, and that brings with it resentment. I for one resent deeply the American government and the elements if the British administration that have been instrumental in the perpetuation of this conflict. However, I feel a similiar level of resentment towards the extremists, and so do most Muslims as far as I am concerned. I don't think this sets us grossly apart from the wider population.

I mentioned it in another thread recently the emergence of young Muslims here (Ireland) now, around the agres of 11 upwards, who are almost heroifying (sp?) the militants, or at least defending their actions. I often think of this as being like the Junior Cert Students we see wearing Celtic jerseys and singing interrupting The Fields of Athenry with "IRA!". It's petty and childish. When they grow up, they will come to learn about reality and the reality of injustices like every other boy.
Im 20, and I can safely say that none of my Muslim friends of this age are of an opinion that Sheikh Shaheed Satardien outlines.

Young people [should not] go to foreign places where they are being brainwashed and where they are told to reject moderate Islam,

Again, I have a great deal of respect for this man, but I think this statement should is not very supportive of individual, strong minds that do exist amongst us and are very well capable of dismissing notions of radicalism. I've been to Pakistan, and will be there again in a few months, and so have a great many of Irish Muslims been to their 'homelands' or parents' homelands.

I understand his advice that we should be careful of the comapny we keep, that goes for everybody, and Im sure we all would gladly take that advice, Muslim or Christian or Jew. However, I dont think that nestling here in North western Europe, and cowering from extremism is any good for us. Discovering our deeper cultural and historical roots as Asian/ Middle Eastern Muslims, should not be thwarted by the actions of militants. To stay away from such communities is to almost blacklist them as posionous or dangerous to the mind, when we all understand such an antagonistic viewpoint is what has been alienating the good people of the Middle East from the West to begin with.
Finally, i dislike the term 'moderate Islam'. It almost suggests that to be a rational and ethical human being, you must only be half-interested in your faith, or not be fully committed to it. I think that the terms 'radical Islam' or 'Islamic Militancy' are more appropriate to describe the actions of those who misinterpret the faith to fit in with their own assumptions and evil theories.
Like many young Muslims I have been educated entirely, and raised in the west and would probably feel more at home in Portlaoise than Pakistan. I am intending to go to Karachi in October and travel around Pakistan with a friend of mine who is foing TEFL there, please God all going well. I think that the Cleric's recommendations of tightening restrictions on foreign travel are not called for.

lostexpectation

hmm he seems to say something but says nothing....

I think that when these young guys go over, they probably don't go to the nice parts or the middle class parts? so they go see poverty strife and war? and then they come home and translate it to here. Which is sorta a mistake and sorta correct.
Is muslim teacher suggesting young people shouldn't travel. I thought broadening minds. opening eyes was a good thing. Does he stop these people seeing the poverty incase they also meet people who misuse the situation for their own gains too. Better they get mortgage and a doctorate and keep to themselves.

They can do things here that will have greater impact here then they would in Pakistan. whether that be politcal move or an attack.

wes

Why anyone would want to go to Pakistan is beyone me. My mother has been trying to convince me to visit for years....

Anyway, I don't know if the man has a point. I have not bothered to go to a Mosque in a while so I don't know if young Mulims are holding extremist views. I agree that if they do that there views are unacceptable. Simply put, we have it very very nice here. We can practive our faith in peace and not have anyone one bother us. Many of the countries in the middle east don't allow this. A lot of them violate Islamic principles and don't allow there people basic freedoms. I am of the opinion that the middle east needs to sort its own problems out and we should leave them to it.

Jackie laughlin

It would be a mistake to assume that the puerile shouting of IRA slogans will disappear with age. Similarly youthful Islamic devotion can mature into something nasty.

Schuhart

InFront wrote:

I would never have described anti-westernism as being 'rife' among young Muslims here. I wonder what is causing him to say so? Sheikh Shaheed Satardien was an important man behind the Danish caricature peaceful protest march earlier on in the year and I know is a man who many Muslims have great respect for, myself included.

In fairness, I doubt if he pictured his views being presented in quite that way, and I'm sure they have been edited so as to make the best copy. I would be willing to believe that the man might have simply acknowledged the existance of an issue with European youths adopting extremist views, and maybe even acknowledged that young Irish Muslims were not immune to this. That would easily be spun into saying these views were 'rife' in Ireland.

lostexpectation

strong reaction from other Irish muslims, as ever who speeks for muslims... who is the equivalent of the archbishop for muslims in ireland? if there is such a thing.

It is bit wierd these people asking who is he, Im sure they know who he is.

Irish Muslims reject fundamentalist allegations
http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/8687931?view=Eircomnet
A joint statement issued by 14 different Irish Islamic groups and senior members of the Irish Muslim community said: "We vehemently condemn all the claims made in the articles by Dr Shaheen Satardien and accordingly conclude that this is evidently his own opinion and without evidence cannot prove otherwise".

anybody know where this statement was published?



also
From High Wycombe to Nazareth
How I Found Myself with the Islamic Fascists

By JONATHAN COOK
http://www.counterpunch.org/cook08112006.html

Jackie laughlin

An Irish muslim medical Doctor said on Newstalk 106 (Orla Barry Show) this morning that militant anti-Western views are now commonplace among his patients.

wes

lostexpectation wrote:

strong reaction from other Irish muslims, as ever who speeks for muslims... who is the equivalent of the archbishop for muslims in ireland? if there is such a thing.

It is bit wierd these people asking who is he, Im sure they know who he is.

Irish Muslims reject fundamentalist allegations
http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/8687931?view=Eircomnet
A joint statement issued by 14 different Irish Islamic groups and senior members of the Irish Muslim community said: "We vehemently condemn all the claims made in the articles by Dr Shaheen Satardien and accordingly conclude that this is evidently his own opinion and without evidence cannot prove otherwise".

anybody know where this statement was published?

I have no idea who the hell Dr Shaheed Satardien is. Never heard of him.
Nor have I heard of the Supreme Muslim Council of Ireland. I haven't been to a mosque in years I admit, but don't remember any such organisation existing. Maybe they should you know tell us about themselves. Might help I reckon they you know make themselves known to us maybe?!?

There is no web site for this group either or one for the good Doctor Satardien (well ones that I could find). I know he organised the protest against the Mohamed cartoons which were peaceful and I have to give the man credit for that, but I only found out about this due to his comments over the last couple days. So there is a good chance these people might not know about the guy. I don't know about there being extremisim among Muslim youths here, maybe there is, but maybe Dr Satardien should try and find more solid details. I am not denying there probably are some extremists, but I think we need hard facts if the problem is to be tackled.

Also I find it bizare all these Muslim leaders, I sure as hell don't remember voting for them and the only leaders I recognise as any sort of leader for me is one I voted for.

InFront

strong reaction from other Irish muslims, as ever who speeks for muslims... who is the equivalent of the archbishop for muslims in ireland? if there is such a thing.

I dont think there is really an equivalent in the way you mean. The President of the Islamic Foundation is the Imam of the Dublin Mosque Sth Circular Rd; I suppose he would be an authority figure in that regard.
As regards their asking what the Muslim council is, I presumed it was Majils ash-shura of the islamic foundation?
Then again Dr Gamati would know that.. so now I am confused as well It must be something different...

This man seems to get a certain amount of stick from amonst our community but he spoke at a march in dublin earlier on in the year and I for one agreed with the sentiments he expressed in that.
Admittedly his current statements are a bit excessive I think. I have heard people say bad things about him, but I also know people who have a lot of respect for him and were very happy to hear him speak on radio about the bombings in London last year. Overall, I think that there is welcome truth in what he says, but like the people in the link that was posted by lostexpectation, his statement on foreign travel and rife extremism are a bit surprising.

InFront

wes wrote:

Also I find it bizare all these Muslim leaders, I sure as hell don't remember voting for them and the only leaders I recognise as any sort of leader for me is one I voted for.

Salaam, Wes. If you become an ordinary member of the IFI, you do have the option of voting at the meetings

wes

InFront wrote:

Salaam, Wes. If you become an ordinary member of the IFI, you do have the option of voting at the meetings

Ah cheers for the information!

DadaKopf

I think the Tribune article reeked of something. It reeked of a power struggle between Islamic associations/councils and within them in Ireland. But also frustration with not being taken seriously by the government when they make submissions expressing concern.

The article was also funny in its use of the word 'moderate' and contradicted itself in 1 paragraph. In one sentence, it says how Muslims in Ireland feel a sense of oppression at what's happening to the freedoms of their fellow Muslims in Britain, America and Europe. But then a quote by a Muslim recommended that the Irish Government get serious and restrict Muslim kids from travelling to Pakistan etc.

Even worse was the "How to spot a Muslim" article. Man.

Obviously, there's an issue with extremist Islamist ideology, and it has to be dealt with. And it's also true that non-Muslims in Ireland have a responsibility to understand Islam and Islamic culture. We have to understand how and why Muslims would be angered and upset by what they see and experience. Muslims have a responsibility to understand how and why we would (mis)understand and react to what Islamist terrorists are doing.

All sides need to take joint action, as human beings, not discreet 'civilisations' , to oppose all oppression and violence by establishing a common ground.

These articles don't help the situation, but if it happened, it happened.

Jackie laughlin

Face it. There is a problem with Islam in its mildest manifestation. For example, they want the implementation of blasphemy laws which is inconsistent with freedom of speech and tolerance.

eddyc

I'm sure the catholic church would want that too, doesnt mean its ever gonna happen.

Jackie laughlin

EddyC,
They had it and they had to be defeated. The problem today is that in the light of a misunderstood view of tolerance, it is almost unacceptable to criticise "ordinary" Islam. We must make sure that we are irreverent so as to guarantee that we may continue to be irreverent.

wes

I have no problems with people critising Islam, I do it all the time .

Jackie laughlin

Wes,
Would you be scared if you had published a cartoon depicting and mocking the prophet?

This must be done time and time again until everyone especially muslims tire of it and let it pass as a normal part of an open society.

wes

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Wes,
Would you be scared if you had published a cartoon depicting and mocking the prophet?

This must be done time and time again until everyone especially muslims tire of it and let it pass as a normal part of an open society.

Well I said I don't mind people critising Islam and I seem to be in a tiny minority. I wan't saying all Muslims feel that way. Also in fairness I wouldn't be what you would call a practicing Muslim. Religion = too much effort.

Yes, I would be scared, there are enough violent Muslims out there who need to learn that violence is not the answer.

InFront

This must be done time and time again until everyone especially muslims tire of it and let it pass as a normal part of an open society.

Why would you even want to do that? I mean, what's your motivation to go out there and insult something that is at the heart of Muslims in your community, who if I remember from another thread in the past, you say know and you encounter on a regular basis?

wes

I don't like anyone insulting the prophet, but everyone has the right to say whatever they want in my opinion. I think most Muslims need to recognise this and respons to any insults in a peaceful manner. Thankfully the protest in Ireland was peaceful, but in other places the people just went nuts. People who reacted violently need some perspective. It ain't the dark ages, we don't need to solve our problems with violence.

InFront

Agreed, wes.

But I for one am not happy that my faith should be disregarded, or my familiy's faith be disregarded, just because Jackie Laughlin feels he wants to have the last word with extremists in some sort of slagging match.

As you said, the Dublin march, along with all of the Irish protests were 100% peaceful. So why antagonise the 20,000+ Irish Muslims if all that we want to do is get along with our lives and our faith?

wes

InFront wrote:

Agreed, wes.

But I for one am not happy that my faith should be disregarded, or my familiy's faith be disregarded, just because Jackie Laughlin feels he wants to have the last word with extremists in some sort of slagging match.

As you said, the Dublin march, along with all of the Irish protests were 100% peaceful. So why antagonise the 20,000+ Irish Muslims if all that we want to do is get along with our lives and our faith?

The problem isn't the peaceful Muslims, the problem is people like Osama Bin Laden who are corrupting young Muslims. As long as we have people within our faith are willing to use violence to achieve there aim we are all in danger. Osama and people of his ilk have no problem killing other Muslims to further there aims. We should take any warning of potential radicalistion of young Irish Muslims seriously and show them there is a better way to air there grievances that don't involve killing innocent people.

Look people who insult our faith I ignore, they shouldn't say those things, but we shouldn't give them the reaction there looking for either. Simply put ignore them and they will go away. Also the actions of terrorist element of Islam are making people afraid and when people are afraid they express it and I saw these cartoons as a reaction to that.

I think understanding to the people who made these cartoons is far also very important here. Tell them there are peaceful Muslims out there and that we can not control the psychopaths who use religion as an excuse to murder people and that we will do our best to help get rid of these men so we can all live in peace.

niencat

Hi Mike and others

I am acquainted with Dr. Sheikh Shaheed Satardien. That article in the Tribune puts some words in Sheikh Satardiens' mouth.

Dr. Sheikh Satardien does not know I am responding to you on this board by the way.

He is worried about the trend he has noticed in Ireland among Muslims towards extremism and violence.

However, he never mentioned a particular nationality nor did he mention that young people should not be allowed to visit the country of their ancestors.

He never classified himself as a chief muslim leader in Ireland nor did he mention that he founded the Supreme Muslim Council of Ireland to the Sunday Tribune. This information and his photographs the Sunday Tribune got from the internet.

He was approached by the Sunday Tribune after journalists visited his Friday service which he recently started in Dublin 15, and which takes place in a hall his congregation rents for that purpose. He did not know those journalists would be there. He is very concerned about extremism and terrorism which is done by people who claim to be Muslims, as this is not at all in line with the teachings nor the spirit of Islam, as anybody will agree who has studied Islam.

I am not a Muslim by the way. I grew up in a very secular west European country (not Ireland) and my family were practicing Christians as well as socialists, and thoroughly caucasian.

Satardien was expressing a concern he had. Sunday Tribune took their own spiel on his words. Satardien calls muslim leaders up to come together and develop a strategy together to minimalise radicalism and extremism among Muslims, especially young ones.

From things I hear from most countries in Western Europe there is cause for concern. The extremists and terrorists among Muslims are few, but they are there and they have some powerful leaders. Any injury or death caused by an extremist who says he is Muslim is one too many in my view.

Most Muslims I know are very nice people, albeit that they can be complacent about their religion and even arrogant, and not therefore interested in real dialogue with other religions. But many Muslims I know are kind, friendly, have integrity, are courteous and truthful.
As I said, the group who are terrorist and extremists are small.

Islam however is demonised in the western world nowadays. The recent events in the Middle East are very painful to many Muslims. They feel these events are another example of Islamophobia. We can wonder why there is an upsurge in the west of Islamophobia.... spin doctors can be very clever and the big oil reserves are in countries which have a large Muslim population.

Muslims are grieving because of the demonisation of Islam, and especially young Muslims want action to be taken. How would you feel if your culture and your worldview and what you had learned to value and respect was under attack? You would get angry and you would want to put a stop to it.

The leaders of extremism and terrorism target young people. This has been done for centuries.... the leaders of these ideologies, whether they are IRA or Muslim or Nazis, or Stalinists, or whatever, have but one motive and that is to have power. They are not really interested in their religion or ideology. They only want power cause power will give them influence and money.

Dr. Sheikh Satardien has contact with many Muslims from all kinds of backgrounds. He hears about things journalists do not hear about that easily. He sees tendencies and trends.

Oh yes. The remarks by Clonskeagh Mosque. I wonder why they are attacking Dr. Sheikh Satardien so vehemently. They seem to deny there is a problem, yet are they willing to take responsibility for any death or injury caused by an extremist who says he is a Muslim?

Did you know that all the organisations they mentioned in the article in the Irish times are closely associated or even founded by the leaders inthe Clonskeagh Mosque?

What is Clonskeagh Mosque doing? They make a libellous remark: that dr. Sheikh Satardien is pulling a publicity stunt. He was and is not. He is a concerned Muslim, concerned about the tendencies he sees. He is a man of peace. He is the only Muslim I know (and I met quite a few in my life) who is actively involved in helping dialogue to happen between religions and who actively helps people of different cultures and religions to understand one another and to become friendly with one another.

He expressed concerns. The media jumped on that. He did not approach the media, they all approached him. Because of the sunday Tribune making such a big deal out of his interview with them, many other media followed and he got one interview after another. Which might be a bit worriesome for those Muslim leaders who like to be seen as the major spokespeople for the Muslims in Ireland.

The way Clonskeag Mosque approached the issue is not helping the Muslims at all. It is helping to divide Muslims and to cause disunity in the Muslim community.

Dr. Sheikh Shaheed Satardien's message is simple: There is also among Muslims in Ireland a small group which is growing in number, which is geared towards extremism and radicalism. Lets get together, leaders of the Muslims in Ireland, to discuss this problem and to develop a strategy so that the progress of this tendency is halted.
He is not saying that all Muslims or most Muslims are radicals or extremists. He is simply noticing that there is a trend and that this trend is growing. And he is worried and concerned about this.

Clonskeagh Mosque has acknowledged in an article in the Irish Times of Monday 14 August that there is radicalism also among the Muslims of Ireland. They do not deny that. So what are they doing to prevent it from growing? All I know is that they are attacking a fellow Muslim, doubting his background and his organisation.
And I wonder why they are doing this, instead of simply refuting his statements, which they cannot do, cause there IS radicalism to be found among Muslims in western Europe, we cannot deny that. It would be like denying that the IRA had supporters in Dublin or the Republic of Ireland, who would be willing to resort to violence when asked to do so. Does that mean that all Irish are terrorists? No. But to deny that there are members of the IRA living in the Republic and that they are recruiting others would be stupid.

Dr. Sheikh Satardien is not interested in being seen as a major leader or a minor leader or have loads of publicity. What he is interested in is that Muslims are examples of the virtues the Quran and the hadith and the life of the prophet Muhammad promote. That is his main interest. And he will do his utmost to help Muslims understand better what Islam is about. And it is not about anger or violence.

He gave a sermon. Journalists heard his sermon and asked for an interview. He gave the interview. A lot of what is in that initial interview is journalists putting words in his mouth. This happens a lot in newspapers.

I challenge everybody to get to know Dr. Sheikh Satardien, to listen to his views and to find out what he has done in his life, starting with what he has done since he came to Ireland. He has a weekly service in a sportshall every Friday at 1.10 pm in Verona sportshall in Blanchardstown, Dublin 15.
He is the founder of the Interfaith Round table, which is a multifaith organisation geared towards promoting dialogue and understanding between people of different faiths. The email address is interfaithrt@gmail.com. And no, they have not yet a website....

He is a sincere Muslim, who wants to serve God as best as he can, by promoting what Islam is really about, and that is not extremism nor violence. He is an exemplar of the virtues of tolerance and peace which Islam promotes. Anybody who questions his deep knowledge and learning of Islam as well as his commitment and selflessness with regard to serving Islam should be ashamed of themselves, and obviously do not take the effort to get to know him and ask him about his views.

As I said, I am not a Muslim, and was born and raised in a totally caucasian christian/socialist family in a west European country which has a very secular approach to things.
I just don't like slander and people trying to create disunity.

I am really appalled at this lack of willingness on the side of the Clonskeagh Mosque to acknowledge that there is a problem in the Muslim community. What would you say here in ireland if the politicians would say: yes there is radicalism with regard to the issue of Northern Ireland here in Ireland but we should not worry about it, and at the same time there is no proof that measures were in place to monitor and halt this kind of radicalism?
Would people not think that anyone who has been found to have extremist tendencies could be regarded as a danger to society? Would you not be disturbed if nothing was done cause politicians and the police said oh it is but a small percentage of the population?

That is in effect what Clonskeagh Mosque is saying. And I am appalled at that. They do not embrace the idea of organising a meeting where all Muslim leaders in ireland have a say and where the issue is discussed and solutions are found and developed.
All Clonskeagh Mosque did was attacking the background of Dr. Sheikh Satardien, which is foolish as he can prove he is well versed in Islam and is a qualified Sheikh and was a major leader in Islam with a large following in his home country of South Africa.

Clonskeagh Mosque never promoted dialogue with other religons as far as I know or are so focussed on furthering peace between people as Dr. Sheikh Satardien is. It is through the actions that we can get to know the true purpose and motive of people.

wes

niencat thank you for clearing up who Dr. Sheikh Shaheed Satardien is. I found it bizare all these people who should be in the know not knowing who the man was. I have seen the media make many an errors in other stories, so this is probably the case here.

He sounds like a good man and the sad thing is that Irish Muslim leaders seem to be ignoring him when he has a very valid point. Extremism exists and if we ignore it I am sure we will suffer for it.

InFront

niencat wrote:

Did you know that all the organisations they mentioned in the article in the Irish times are closely associated or even founded by the leaders inthe Clonskeagh Mosque?

What is the point? The Clonskeagh Mosque and cultural centre and school is a valid and excellent amenity to the surrounding Muslim communites. I would consider that being allied with the Msoque is an endoresement of someone's character and standing.

There is also among Muslims in Ireland a small group which is growing in number, which is geared towards extremism and radicalism. Lets get together, leaders of the Muslims in Ireland, to discuss this problem and to develop a strategy so that the progress of this tendency is halted.

He is right there.
I'm not sure it is growing, but I know that 8 years ago, when I was a boy beginning secondary school, Islam meant nothing more to me than what my parents, family, community and teachers had shown it to be - peace, love, God and fairness. I did not equate it with aeroplanes bombing into buildings, terrorism or violence. Those things were completely alien to me, Al-hamdulillah.:)

Today, boys are being shown a perverted version of Islam in their youth, society pushes a distorted faith into the Spotlight and doesn't acknowledge the beautiful, peaceful religion most of us were lucky to have grown up with. And I think that is spoiling their relationship with God. So yes, Muslims must work together to overcome this trend and be sure to show young people what Islam means.

I am relieved to know that the Sheikh was not saying that extremism is rife amongst Ireland's young Muslims. This is why we must be more careful of the media.

However, I don't think the best approach here is to criticise the Clonskeagh Mosque or the IFI or any other Muslim body. Wouldn't it be better to approach them and iron out the differences if they exist. I'm sure all of us Muslims agree on our own responsibility to guide young boys INTO Islam, and not out of Islam as extremists would do. So everyone must pull together insha'Allah.

You have articulated your position quite well. You seem genuinely concerned, and maybe if you wrote so articulately to Muslim leaders you would strike a chord and encourage them to approach Sheikh Dr Satardien. Either way I don't think that blame and division is the best policy.

wes

I agree that we very simply need to work together to fight extremism and that we should all discuss this as a community.

lostexpectation

InFront wrote:

What is the point? The Clonskeagh Mosque and cultural centre and school is a valid and excellent amenity to the surrounding Muslim communites. I would consider that being allied with the Msoque is an endoresement of someone's character and standing.

well is really 28 different orgs if they all gravitate round the same people/place.

He is right there.
I'm not sure it is growing, but I know that 8 years ago, when I was a boy beginning secondary school, Islam meant nothing more to me than what my parents, family, community and teachers had shown it to be - peace, love, God and fairness. I did not equate it with aeroplanes bombing into buildings, terrorism or violence. Those things were completely alien to me, Al-hamdulillah.:)

I bet your parents told you everything was ok, and shielded you from war and poverty and the systems that perpetuait this (beyond human falibilites) elsewhere?

niencat

InFront wrote:

What is the point? The Clonskeagh Mosque and cultural centre and school is a valid and excellent amenity to the surrounding Muslim communites. I would consider that being allied with the Msoque is an endoresement of someone's character and standing.

The point is that Clonskeagh Mosque is claiming that they have contacted all these organisations. This creates the impression that they have contact with many different Muslim organisations, but they only check their own community. That is not giving a fair picture of Muslims in Ireland, and yet they base their remarks on this. While at the same time trying to discredit the reputation and background of Dr. Sheikh Shaheed Satardien. And that is what I am protesting again. They pretend to represent the Muslims in Ireland by listing these organisations, which are all actually related to the Clonskeagh Mosque.

There is a large Nigerian Muslim population here for example. They are not mentioned by Clonskeagh Mosque. They only mention their own organisations without mentioning that these are their own organisations. That is creating a false picture.

Remember, they called together a press conference. And they did not invite Dr. Sheikh Satardien nor anybody else of other Muslim congregations in Ireland. I wonder why they did not at least consult with other Muslim congregations.

I am very annoyed. If I was a Buddhist and somebody said that there was extremism among Buddhists and I felt that was not true, I would contact as many Buddhist congregations as I could to make a stand. I can only see Clonskeagh mosque trying to make an issue of concern into a quest for power. I am sorry if that offends anybody, but this is what I see.

And it is only a reinforcement of the impression i have already of Muslims world wide: that only something happens in their midst when people are attacking Islam, and that they do not know how to work together.
It may be that Muslim organisations have been promoting peaceful relationships in the Middle East for years and the media never really paid attention to that in the west, at the same time I still have this prejudice that Muslims do all their own thing and do not work together, the different communities do not work together anymore, and the brotherhood and sisterhood in Islam is just all talk.

The words of Clonskeagh mosque and the fact that there were very few Muslims on the last conference of the Interfaith Round Table do nothing to help me get rid of that opinion. People like Dr. Sheikh Satardien who put his hands where his mouth is, do.

He is right there.
I'm not sure it is growing, but I know that 8 years ago, when I was a boy beginning secondary school, Islam meant nothing more to me than what my parents, family, community and teachers had shown it to be - peace, love, God and fairness. I did not equate it with aeroplanes bombing into buildings, terrorism or violence. Those things were completely alien to me, Al-hamdulillah.:)

As they should be.... it is not part of islam at all.

Today, boys are being shown a perverted version of Islam in their youth, society pushes a distorted faith into the Spotlight and doesn't acknowledge the beautiful, peaceful religion most of us were lucky to have grown up with. And I think that is spoiling their relationship with God. So yes, Muslims must work together to overcome this trend and be sure to show young people what Islam means.

I am relieved to know that the Sheikh was not saying that extremism is rife amongst Ireland's young Muslims. This is why we must be more careful of the media.

However, I don't think the best approach here is to criticise the Clonskeagh Mosque or the IFI or any other Muslim body. Wouldn't it be better to approach them and iron out the differences if they exist. I'm sure all of us Muslims agree on our own responsibility to guide young boys INTO Islam, and not out of Islam as extremists would do. So everyone must pull together insha'Allah.

You have articulated your position quite well. You seem genuinely concerned, and maybe if you wrote so articulately to Muslim leaders you would strike a chord and encourage them to approach Sheikh Dr Satardien. Either way I don't think that blame and division is the best policy.

Dr. Sheikh Satardien has very often approached the Clonskeagh Mosque. They know him quite welll there. He makes a point of being in touch with as many Muslim congregations as he can. They boycotted the Interfaith conference, and they do have a problem with him.

I might write to them and see if they will respond to me. I have also written to the Irish Times, an open letter to the editor. Cause this is about discrediting a person and coming very close to libel. If they feel that there is nothing to worry about, they should have held a press conference with all the other Muslim leaders present there. But I tell you, even one extremist is already a danger. Cause one person willing to apply violence to make a point will damage the image Islam and Muslims have in Ireland even further, is letting Muslims down tremendously, in a way that most people who claim to be Muslims and are terrorists do not realise. As well as bringing pain to Muhammads heart, could they but know.

God does not want us to kill one another for religion. He wants us to live together in peace. He wants us to treat others as we ourselves would be treated. The golden rule can be found in all major world religions. Also in Islam and I am waiting for Muslims all over the world to live up to this. They are almost treated as badly as the Jews were in the world before world war II. There is a similar hype against them as in the 1930s in Europe against Jews. And if Muslims stick to the virtues of their religions and learn again to work together instead of discrediting one another just because a person voices a concern then the world will see how wrong they are in villifying Muslims.

Clonskeagh mosque never contacted Dr. Sheikh Shaheed Satardien about what was written in the Sunday Tribune. They took that what was written there was his view totally. They never asked him his true position about Muslim youth and whether he felt that people should be prevented going to the country of their ancestors.
They just called a press conference and said what they said. Is that how one should treat a fellow Muslim? i do not get that from the Quran. The Quran promotes consultation and verification of facts before you start accusing. Justice is a virtue highly promoted in the Quran and the Hadith.

For me, their actions have done more damage to my image of the gross majority of Muslims. I like very much reading the Quran and learn about Islam through the Hadith and the life of Muhammad. I get a wonderful picture of Islam there. And when I look what the Muslim community is about nowadays I find the same disillusionment that I found when I looked at the Christian community world wide. A lot just go through the motions, are complacent and think by going through the motions they will be saved. Cultural biases have crept in and been seen as true Islam.

Religion should be felt in the heart, should lead a person closer to God, should create love for humans and love for God in the hearts of people. Not being complacent.

Muslims, get your act together and work together more... show the world the virtue and truth of Islam by your actions. Study your religion, don't just listen to the sermon on Friday and don't think just memorising the Quran is enough. Think about what you memorised. Study Islam.... that is why you were given directly the Words of God. Do not bother in attacking one of your brothers or sisters. Leave them to God and concentrate on working together, on making the Ummah a real Ummah, not little bits of ummah. Forget your racism, your prejudices because someone can or cannot recite the Quran, forget all of your differences.

wes

I have to agree with you in the disillusionment. Most of the Muslim leaders that I know of seem to be horrible examples to the rest of us. At the rate we are going I am sure people will start to turn away from the religion if things don't change for the better.

Perhaps a central world wide authority may be the answer? A way to show the world the majority of us are against the violent fanatics? This is one thing Islam has been missing for a long time and so we are split between so very many communties and we can never present a voice of unity.

Schuhart

niencat wrote:

Satardien was expressing a concern he had. Sunday Tribune took their own spiel on his words.

I suspected that he was the victim of journalistic spin. It's interesting to have some confirmation of that.

niencat

wes wrote:

Perhaps a central world wide authority may be the answer? A way to show the world the majority of us are against the violent fanatics? This is one thing Islam has been missing for a long time and so we are split between so very many communties and we can never present a voice of unity.

i would agree provided that this authority is elected by the majority of the muslims in the world and consists of a group of people whose all have an equal share (i.e. nobody's opinion, vote or words bears more weight than another person's), both men and women, instead of one person. I believe that there are allusions to this kind of thing, let us call it a council, to be found in the quran or in the hadith. Clear specifications are not given, apparently (I have heard about this, never truly investigated it in the hadith or quran, but muslims have told me there are allusions to such a council).

wes

1 vote per person would be the way to go, but it would be a mess to organise, apparently there is between 1.3 and 1.7 billion Muslims in the world so it could get complicated.

Bottle_of_Smoke

It's really good to see a Muslim on boards who doesn't interpret attacks on Islamic terrorism/radicalism as attcks on Islam.(Wes)

And Niencats I'm really glad you posted about the distortion of what Dr Satardien actually said. Journalist should be given sentences in mountjoy for articles like this. I'd be so upset if one did that to something I'd said.

Face it. There is a problem with Islam in its mildest manifestation. For example, they want the implementation of blasphemy laws which is inconsistent with freedom of speech and tolerance.

Hi Jackie,

Could you indicate the exact body of people "they" represents? It's not entirely clear. From what you said it's almost as if you think "they" represents every Muslim in the world.

However assuming you had the intelligence to set up a boards.ie account by yourself you surely cannot mean this. I must have misread something.

The recent events in the Middle East are very painful to many Muslims.

The events in the Middle East pain everyone who has compassion for other human beings, not just Muslims. I cannot entertain anyone cononing violence with this claim. I mean you didn't see Irish Americans rioting in the 80s because we were getting a raw deal. Not entirely comparable I accept.

Muslims are grieving because of the demonisation of Islam, and especially young Muslims want action to be taken. How would you feel if your culture and your worldview and what you had learned to value and respect was under attack? You would get angry and you would want to put a stop to it.

I'd be confident in the knowledge that people who demonise Islam intentionally are full of sh|t. And no one of any worth pays attention to it.

Cartoons are not by any stretch of the imagination as demonisation of Islam.

Comedy central wouldn't broadcast an image of Muhammed handing Peter Griffin a hat. But they were willing to broadcast an image of Jesus Christ daking a dump on George Bush - See South Park Episode "Cartoon Wars"

Why didn't Christians around the world riot at US embassy - because its a phucking cartoon!

Being fanatical about religion is proof to me you doubt any of it is actually true, see

"You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt."
-Robert M. Pirsig

The upsetting thing about all this is I can't help but think about the scene in Malcolm X where he gets shot. I hope as many Muslims as possible openly support Dr S's views. I'm gonna go to one of his sermons as soon as I get a chance. Sounds like a great man.

Why would you even want to do that? I mean, what's your motivation to go out there and insult something that is at the heart of Muslims in your community, who if I remember from another thread in the past, you say know and you encounter on a regular basis?

It's a bad method but I think she's trying to say freedom of speech is more important than Muslim's feeings - which it is.

That south park episode I referenced explains it very well - EVERYONE should watch it. If they dont I'm gonna shove a box semtex up my ass & blow up the server for boards. Now do it!

Anyone else notice Ride Satanis an anagram of Satardien?

InFront

niencat wrote:

i would agree provided that this authority is elected by the majority of the muslims in the world and consists of a group of people whose all have an equal share (i.e. nobody's opinion, vote or words bears more weight than another person's), both men and women, instead of one person. I believe that there are allusions to this kind of thing, let us call it a council, to be found in the quran or in the hadith. Clear specifications are not given, apparently (I have heard about this, never truly investigated it in the hadith or quran, but muslims have told me there are allusions to such a council).

We do have one world authority, and that is The Qur'an.

I for one would not welcome the idea of a central governor for Islam or a 'Muslim Pope' or revived Caliphate. We already have ulema representing the ijma, and that is all that we need.
The heroic image of one human man leading the religious flock through his own faith, and not being under God's direction, unleashed in the West a relentless quest for domination and possesive claims on God betwen minorities. It never took root in the Muslim psyche. Thank god.
For all of its outward manifestations - we observe Hijab, are circumcised, may have grown a beard... Islam is actually an intensely private religion.

Muslims today are at the receiving end of Western domination. As an Ummah, we are living through the darkest hour of our history - the genocide in Bosnia, dispossession in Palestine, brutality in Kashmir, butchery in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Lebanon, international suspicion and Islam-o-phobia, abject poverty in Muslim Africa, and political repression across Muslim lands.
Al-hamdulillah 'ala kool ahal.

This undoubtedly makes us want to look to one leader to unite us.

But we shouldnt forget that Allah is with us always, and his word is with us in physical form with The Qur'an and elaborated in Sunnah.

InFront

lostexpectation wrote:

I bet your parents told you everything was ok, and shielded you from war and poverty and the systems that perpetuait this (beyond human falibilites) elsewhere?

Yes, actually, doesn't everybody's?

My point is that I had a happy and unapologetically Muslim childhood, and indeed adolescence (just like most people). I had a basic grip on wars and conflicts - but watching the news and thinking about problems in the Kashmir or terrorism in Lockerbie or a war in the ME wasnt something I felt related to, or moved by, nor did I feel guilty for Islam.

8 or 9 years later, it is unavoidable that boys are experiencing a direct relationship to the extremism just because they are Muslim, and I think that is a tragedy.

wes

InFront wrote:

We do have one world authority, and that is The Qur'an.

Its sad that so many ignore it. I am not talking about a Caliphate, I am talking about a purely religous thing to guide people on there understanding on the concepts presented in the Qur'an, there are so many different interpretations.

I think an authority that clearly for example says that suicide bombing are wrong and against the very nature of Islam. This would make it so much harder for the psychopaths to lie to Muslims and say they will be martyrs when the Qur'an clearly says suicide is wrong and that you will go to hell. Its is a disgusting preversion of our religion and the people who support such acts also disgust me.

A group of spiritual leaders with some authority to tell the radicals and the murderers they are wrong would be a great thing for us. It would help seperate us from them.

lostexpectation

wes wrote:

Its sad that so many ignore it. I am not talking about a Caliphate, I am talking about a purely religous thing to guide people on there understanding on the concepts presented in the Qur'an, there are so many different interpretations.

I think an authority that clearly for example says that suicide bombing are wrong and against the very nature of Islam. This would make it so much harder for the psychopaths to lie to Muslims and say they will be martyrs when the Qur'an clearly says suicide is wrong and that you will go to hell. Its is a disgusting preversion of our religion and the people who support such acts also disgust me.

A group of spiritual leaders with some authority to tell the radicals and the murderers they are wrong would be a great thing for us. It would help seperate us from them.

are suicide bombings really the problem?

Bottle_of_Smoke

InFront wrote:

We do have one world authority, and that is The Qur'an.

Sense this is gonna go off topic but I mean come on - a book written hundreds of years ago is an authority?
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article812661.ece
Reminds me of

The heroic image of one human man leading the religious flock through his own faith, and not being under God's direction, unleashed in the West a relentless quest for domination and possesive claims on God betwen minorities."

I hope you're not implying that's how the Pope is seen - he simply isn't. Of course he's under his God's direction, or at least supposed to be - my point is Catholic's don't worship him as a god - they worship their God.

It never took root in the Muslim psyche. Thank god.
For all of its outward manifestations - we observe Hijab, are circumcised, may have grown a beard... Islam is actually an intensely private religion.

Yet not so private that the entire world's right to free speech is held hostage to how Muslims might react. Though it can't last, sooner or later it's gonna be treated like the hot tempered guy in school who everyone made fun of because they knew they'd always get a reaction.

What's the connection between privacy & circumcision? not saying there's none I just dont see it. Note time of post.

Muslims today are at the receiving end of Western domination. As an Ummah, we are living through the darkest hour of our history - the genocide in Bosnia, dispossession in Palestine, brutality in Kashmir, butchery in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Lebanon, international suspicion and Islam-o-phobia, abject poverty in Muslim Africa, and political repression across Muslim lands.
Al-hamdulillah 'ala kool ahal.

Yeah dude - everyone hates Muslims - just natural hatred really, in our genes. Spend all our time ensuring their hour is as dark as possible.

Your attitude is just depressing, seems like you enjoy going on about how Muslims have a hard time. You're right about the inhumanity in those locations listed but open your eyes for five minutes & you'll reaslise these places are not being raped because they're Islamic but rather for politically motivated reason. Whatever you say about "international suspicion" & "Islam-o-phobia" you know as well as I do Muslims living here have it just as good as anyone else. And I know a lot of Muslim's who'll agree.

Why do you think you care more than non-Muslims about bombings in Lebanon? You should really get over the "us vs them" attitude - that causes more racism than any media demonisation.

mike65

To bring this back firmly on topic here's a follow up article from the Tribune.

Extract

TENSIONS continue among the Irish Islamic community following last week's claims by a leading religious leader that young Muslims here have become increasingly radicalised.

The claims, made by South African-born Sheikh Dr Shaheed Satardien, were rejected by other Muslim leaders here, including Dr Nooh Al Kaddo, the director of the Islamic cultural centre of Ireland.

However, last week, Khalid Kelly, an Irish Muslim who was a leading member of the UKbased fundamentalist Islamic group Al Muhajiroun told the Sunday Tribune that there was "remarkable interest" shown by young Irish Muslims when the group conducted an information campaign in Dublin. Al Muhajiroun was banned in the UK in 2004. Its founder and leader, the controversial Muslim cleric Sheihk Omar Bakri, is currently in hiding in Lebanon, but remains in contact via emails with his followers, including Kelly.

Kelly told the Sunday Tribune that Irish Muslim teenagers, including some as young as 12, expressed an interest in the group's pro-jihadist teachings when they initially travelled to Ireland in October 2003. Both Kelly and other members of the London-based group have returned several times to Dublin to meet with persons interested in the group's activities, he said.

Mike.

InFront

Not sure what kind of credibility the Tribune should be afforded if the Sheikh's comments really were totally misrepresented as they appear to have been.

They're following up this topic on a very similar line to last week, which is to try and give Joe Public something to worry about here as terrorism rears its ugly head abroad against the US et al. It is August, after all, it's silly season.

wes

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Sense this is gonna go off topic but I mean come on - a book written hundreds of years ago is an authority?
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article812661.ece
Reminds me of




I hope you're not implying that's how the Pope is seen - he simply isn't. Of course he's under his God's direction, or at least supposed to be - my point is Catholic's don't worship him as a god - they worship their God.



Yet not so private that the entire world's right to free speech is held hostage to how Muslims might react. Though it can't last, sooner or later it's gonna be treated like the hot tempered guy in school who everyone made fun of because they knew they'd always get a reaction.

What's the connection between privacy & circumcision? not saying there's none I just dont see it. Note time of post.



Yeah dude - everyone hates Muslims - just natural hatred really, in our genes. Spend all our time ensuring their hour is as dark as possible.

Your attitude is just depressing, seems like you enjoy going on about how Muslims have a hard time. You're right about the inhumanity in those locations listed but open your eyes for five minutes & you'll reaslise these places are not being raped because they're Islamic but rather for politically motivated reason. Whatever you say about "international suspicion" & "Islam-o-phobia" you know as well as I do Muslims living here have it just as good as anyone else. And I know a lot of Muslim's who'll agree.

Why do you think you care more than non-Muslims about bombings in Lebanon? You should really get over the "us vs them" attitude - that causes more racism than any media demonisation.

I agree that any racism is a few small incidents from people who probably already felt that way using the current climate as an excuse. The majority of people in the west are very good people. There are member of every race that are racist and they always wait for something to rear there ugly head, but they are thankfully in the minority nowadays.

Jackie laughlin

InFront,
I've been away. Sorry for taking so long to get back to your point.

It is essential that the achievement of defeating blasphemy laws be copperfastened. It is not acceptable to me that because Muslims generally are under unjustified attack over extremism, progressive voices should be sympathetic to Islam itself. Islam at its mildest - and if there were never any violence - is a theocratic challenge to the open society. In the short term it would be sensible to mock the prophet regularly until Muslims adapt - like Catholics - to the hard won freedoms of our society and come to ignore jokes about religion.

Yes, I do know a small number of muslims but not very well. I know them well enough to talk to.

InFront

Jackie laughlin wrote:

It is essential that the achievement of defeating blasphemy laws be copperfastened.

AFAIK there are no blasphemy laws in this country, nor have there since its inception, is that not correct?

Islam at its mildest - and if there were never any violence - is a theocratic challenge to the open society.

That is complete rubbish. I would suggest you learn more about Islam if you genuinely think that way. Whilst of course, Muslims are always open to welcoming new members into the community, there is to be no compulsion in Islam. I really don't know where you're getting the notion that we are a theocratic threat to society - our own society.
By default you are saying that the 20, 000+ Irish Muslims are a threat to the state? Give me a break.

In the short term it would be sensible to mock the prophet regularly until Muslims adapt - like Catholics - to the hard won freedoms of our society and come to ignore jokes about religion.

You seem to be attributing the freedoms of society to atheists in history. You must know that is an incredibly wrong suggestion. More often that not, it was deeply religious people themselves who established the constitutions of the western countries - Ireland included.

Re: ignoring jokes about religion, I presume you are referring to the Danish cartoons.
The portrayal of Muhammad pbuh in those pictures is not comparable to a Christian prophet in terms of offense cause. Portrayal of Christian characters is not an offense in their religion, it is to Islam.
As I think I said somewhere else, it is more equivalent to defacing something that Christians and jews do find sacred - like, for example, a Christian chuch or for jews, the star of David.
Your explanation of the need to constantly pick out normal peaceful Muslims and offend them is absurd. You seem to think of it as some sort of crusade or holy war on behalf of democracy. That is the antagonism practiced by the likes of GWB.

Schuhart

InFront wrote:

AFAIK there are no blasphemy laws in this country, nor have there since its inception, is that not correct?

Article 40 (6) (1) (i) of the Constitution, inter alia, says “The publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law.” Doolan’s ‘Principles of Irish Law’ comments that blasphemy “consists of indecent or offensive attacks on Christianity, or the Scriptures, or sacred persons or objects calculated to outrage the feelings of the community. The mere denial of Christian teaching is not enough.” (page 111 of the 2nd edition). (I’m not a lawyer, and I can’t definitively answer the obvious question of whether blasphemy includes attacks on other faiths – but it would appear not.) We haven’t had much occasion to enforce it, and I’m not even clear if there is a ‘law’ that defines how to punish it. But that’s a theoretical consideration as, up until the 1970s, we had a a heavy censorship regime It was a bit like that line in Ulysses saying the reason the Irish never persecuted the Jews was because we never let them in. We never prosecuted people for publishing blasphemy because it never got past the Censor.
In recent times, just picking one example, it would be hard to see the ‘Holy Stone of Clanricard’ episode of Father Ted, which ends with a religious relic being stuck up a Bishop’s rectum, as being anything other than offensive to Catholicism. The off hand manner in which the Vatican is depicted as upgrading the relic is clearly laughing at the Church’s contention that, say, things like the apparitions at Knock are only granted status after rigorous investigation. But no-one bats an eyelid.

By default you are saying that the 20, 000+ Irish Muslims are a threat to the state? Give me a break.

I think you are correct to introduce a sense of proportion to the context.

You seem to be attributing the freedoms of society to atheists in history. You must know that is an incredibly wrong suggestion. More often that not, it was deeply religious people themselves who established the constitutions of the western countries - Ireland included.

They gave us a deeply religious Constitution, that we’re gradually rolling out of, which gave scant regard to Wolfe Tone’s conception of the Republic uniting ‘Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter under the common name of Irishmen’. But we’re getting there and, yes, this process involved liberal Christians, atheists and agnostics questioning the right of any faith to use the State to impose its will on the people.

The portrayal of Muhammad pbuh in those pictures is not comparable to a Christian prophet in terms of offense cause. Portrayal of Christian characters is not an offense in their religion, it is to Islam.

I think we’ve touched on this elsewhere. It’s really not possible to deal with this issue other than by comparing like to like. Challenges to cherished beliefs of Islam equates to challenges to cherished beliefs of Christians, and we’ve seen lots of them right up to the Da Vinci Code. An attack on a Church equates to an attack on a Mosque or any other place of public worship and is more serious than a challenge to cherished beliefs as it actually amounts to an attempt to prevent people from practicing their faith.

Your explanation of the need to constantly pick out normal peaceful Muslims and offend them is absurd. You seem to think of it as some sort of crusade or holy war on behalf of democracy. That is the antagonism practiced by the likes of GWB.

There is no reason for Muslims to find themselves barraged by comment, comic or otherwise. However, I think behind the concerns that a few of us seem to have is our memory of fear to enquire masquerading as respect for religion. Islam may be able to stifle comment in countries where it is the dominant religion, just as the Catholic Church used its position to stifle any debate that might ‘disturb’ the faithful here. It’s an attitude well described by one novelist in the lines

… but these voices were silenced before they had finished their questions, kicked on the shins under tables, for their own sakes, because there are things that cannot be said. No, it’s more than that: there are things that cannot be permitted to be true.

There may well be figures in Islam who fear free enquiry for what it will reveal. And they’re right – it won’t be possible to answer the challenges that will be raised with the sort of half-truths that serve under censorship. Hence the need to stoke up the faithful to believe that these are sacred beliefs and any improper reference is insulting, offensive, hateful and so on.

InFront

Schuhart wrote:

Article 40 (6) (1) (i) of the Constitution, inter alia, says “The publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law.”

That's an interesting fact, thanks for clearing it up, I was more genuinely curious as opposed to disagreeing with JL on that one.

In recent times, just picking one example, it would be hard to see the ‘Holy Stone of Clanricard’ episode of Father Ted, which ends with a religious relic being stuck up a Bishop’s rectum, as being anything other than offensive to Catholicism. The off hand manner in which the Vatican is depicted as upgrading the relic is clearly laughing at the Church’s contention that, say, things like the apparitions at Knock are only granted status after rigorous investigation. But no-one bats an eyelid.

I'm not familiar with that I'm afraid, but I know it is a comedy and is probably not intended with any malice. In general however, I don't necessarily see it as a success that avid Christians feel they must just put up with an affront to their faith, or feel so apathetic that it isn't worth complaining.
If someone insults even your cricket team, you will complain, and may get very passionate about it. Same with Islam - it's not about religious arrogance, or assuming we are above others, it's local affections, and in this case, love of God. I do think that society here has undermined Christianity in many respects, and for Christians that is a shame.

There is the formal religious intolerance we see in Iran and old Iraq, and old Ireland, and then there is the new wave of religious intolerance - an intolerance of all religion instead of some. It's not much better, you know. There can possibly be a middle ground.

While we are on the topic of insulting religions to welcome them into the west, where do we draw the line? Should one start burning US flags to numb Americans to anti-americanism in the name of free speech, in Ireland we have that right. Should we burn the Nigerian flag, 'because we can'? Extreme patriotism is just as dangerous as extreme islam. Except of course, that extreme patriotism has caused more war and more destruction.

I doubt you would be in favour of that sort of pointless vilifaction, but Jackie Laughlin certainly seems to believe in the paralysis of submission.

Challenges to cherished beliefs of Islam equates to challenges to cherished beliefs of Christians, and we’ve seen lots of them right up to the Da Vinci Code.

I'm just arguing the mistake that is so common, people saying 'why do they find a few cartoons so upsetting, the pope appeared in x show and nobody complained, etc". The fact is that people ought to be making fairer comparisons and taking into account that certain religions have been weakened by their environment, which is all I'm saying.

Islam may be able to stifle comment in countries where it is the dominant religion, just as the Catholic Church used its position to stifle any debate that might ‘disturb’ the faithful here.

I think people should be careful about comparing people seperated by thousands of miles that only have Islam as the common denominator. All sorts of factors come into play in these societies, like culture and local traditions and legislation, etc.

In these countries, it is Muslim leaders that stifle comment, not Islam itself. They can only act in what they perceive as the faith, we can't say they are followers of Allah without qualification, just because they are Muslim. So it would be wrong to attribute actions to Islam when an act must pass through the hands of man first.

There may well be figures in Islam who fear free enquiry for what it will reveal. And they’re right – it won’t be possible to answer the challenges that will be raised with the sort of half-truths that serve under censorship.

That mirrors GWB's line 'They hate our freedom'. I personally never understood that one...
I do agree that some leaders fear the embaressment and openness that freedom brings. However, most people who hate the Danish cartoons fear the collapsed sort of society that complete and unquestioned freedom ruins.
I believe in freedom of speech, so long as real good can come of it and it isn't just there to offend people

Cartoonists and journalists in the Western press tend to pride themselves on their independence, and so they consider protests from their victims as attacks upon their own integrity. They have not recognised that their success depends on their ability to pander to the prejudices of their readership, the kind of guy who gets a kick out of offense for the sake of it.

A 20th century Punch-like caricature of a bog Irishman or long-nosed Jew, or Norman Lindsay's grotesque Huns or "Chinamen" now seem repugnant. Why si the stereotyping acceptable for Muslims? It strikes me as jumping on the bandwagon. Nothing good comes from it.


Apologies if that was incoherent Im off to bed...

Jackie laughlin

InFront,
Shuhart got there before me and expressed most of what I would feel more eloquently than I might have done.

You are being far too sensitive. Of course I don't regard Irish Muslims as a threat to the state. I welcome them into the open society but I refuse to grant them privilege.

I don't know your age but I suspect you did not live in Catholic Ireland. It was a cold, nasty - perhaps, to borrow a religious term, evil - society.

I want Muslims to BE Irish and laugh at a programme in which Imam Brennan (like Bishop Brennan) is kicked up the arse or Imam Brennan appears in a bath with two women. Mocking piety is fun, good for piety, and good for society.

Irish islam will not become tolerant of blasphemy if Irish liberals pussyfoot around them, confusing unctious niceness with tolerance. It is essential in the short-term for Irish society and for the progress of Irish Islam that we subject Islamic piety to massive doses of Irish slagging until Irish Muslims laugh and fully integrate.

Schuhart

The fact is that people ought to be making fairer comparisons and taking into account that certain religions have been weakened by their environment, which is all I'm saying.

The perception we’d have is not that Christianity has been weakened necessarily, but that Islam needs to develop a thicker skin. It is true that religion has shrunk in importance in Ireland in recent years, but that simply reflects what happens when it is subjected to scrutiny. A person raised in a society where one religion is dominant will accept a lot of stuff that vanishes like the mist when given any real consideration. Fundamentalism still finds its adherents – but in an open society that’s more a case of flight from reality.

In these countries, it is Muslim leaders that stifle comment, not Islam itself.

You are right not to confuse oppressive rulers who happen to be Muslims with Islam. Similarly, the world has seen plenty of Christian and atheist dictators. But what was more on my mind was the controversy over the Satanic Verses and the murder of Theo Van Gogh. There also seems to be a reluctance to study the actual historical origins of the Quran. In fairness, the Spanish Inquisition weren’t short of ideas when it can to dealing with heretics. But these days the most the Church will do is excommunicate you.

However, most people who hate the Danish cartoons fear the collapsed sort of society that complete and unquestioned freedom ruins.

Indeed, that fear is there. But that argument, stripped to its essentials, is saying religious beliefs must be protected even if known to be untrue. My leap of faith is that we have to believe ourselves capable of dealing with reality, because the thought that we can only survive by living in delusion is truly awful.

One way or the other, new attitudes will leak into Islam. I read a discussion about apostasy on islamonline.net, which was exploring that topic of whether a Muslim who decides to leave the faith should be put to death. I know its one of those supreme acts of arrogance, but I could not help noticing that the scholar who took the most liberal position in that debate, saying

In the final analysis, hypocrisy is a greater danger to the community than apostasy in itself.

is based in Canada. Judging from that debate, the idea of freedom of conscience still has a way to go as a considerable amount of conflicting religious text has to be wished away – even my Canadian pal had to coat his message with a thick layer of scripture, and end with what reads to me almost like a plea of ‘I’m not questioning the faith, oh, no way hose’. But there is simply no way a faith can operate in the modern would with even a theoretical notion that people who opt to leave have to be killed. One way or the other, this will change. And the process will hardly stop there.

Why is the stereotyping acceptable for Muslims?

That’s a fair comment and the Danish cartoons involved in the specific case in question are just stupid – there’s no wit, subtlety or insight about them. But surely this is the argument to be made against them - they are a caricature that no other group would have to put up with – rather than an argument that pretends the Islamic faith is more important to Muslims than Christianity is to Christians?

InFront

Schuhart wrote:

Islam needs to develop a thicker skin.

When something is genuinely offensive, it's not fair for bystanders to say 'forget it' or 'get over it'. A lot of people think Muslims are making a big deal over nothing, a lot of people on boards would think that. Islam is very, very personal to most Muslims, and if a person is genuinely offended, in any social or religious or political, or even sporting realm, it is far better that this be voiced as opposed to 'pent up'.

To ask that a Muslim to please not get offended is to give a free rein to people who would distort the face of Islam. The Middle East conflict will continue indefinitely, as will US aggression, as will terrorism. Should Muslims just sit back and let others misrepresent us?

So often when these attacks happen, Muslim leaders are accused of not being vocal enough in condemning it, remember Brendan O'Connor's ''where are all the moderate Muslims?'' article comes particularly to mind. Yet when we complain and protest, Muslims are being too sensitive.
Of course the Muslim reaction to the cartoons was not specifically religious, as it came at a time when Muslims were feeling particularly vulnerable.

This is a cartoon from USA Today. (it isn't one of the Danish or copycat cartoons and doesn't depict The Prophet pbuh.)
I came across much more offensive cartoons while looking for one to make the next point but that was the tamest version I could find. Do you think a newspaper as huge as that would even try to present stereotypical Jews and indeed Judaism in such a bad light because of their affairs in Israel? Of course not. But it's okay to do so with Muslims?
Islam is a safe bet at the moment. It's still acceptable to present Muslims in this way, and growing a thick skin isnt going to make that go away. If the Times presented such a cartoon of an Irish Catholic Priest conspiring with the IRA during the troubles in the early 1980s, would Irish people, and Irish Catholics be best advised to say nothing?

I think Muslims in this country, and in Britain, have already developed a thick skin. Through years of being exposed to Western society, that is completely inevitable. However, turning a blind eye to a susatined prejudice is not something that should be encouraged.

There also seems to be a reluctance to study the actual historical origins of the Quran.

You are probably correct there. There are probably two reasons for that. Firstly, the vast majority of Muslims simply believe it is the direct word of God delivered to the Prophet pbuh, and don't have an interest in delving into the tedious work of tracing it. Secondly: it can't be objectively analysed and ruled on definitively, and there is a danger that any findings would be presented in a negative light, and taken as fact by most people, even if that were not accurate.

One way or the other, new attitudes will leak into Islam. I read a discussion about apostasy on islamonline.net, which was exploring that topic of whether a Muslim who decides to leave the faith should be put to death... had to coat his message with a thick layer of scripture, and end with what reads to me almost like a plea of ‘I’m not questioning the faith, oh, no way hose’.

That was a very interesting read and the author put forward very thought provoking points. I don't think that the niceties at the end are anything but common courtesy but merely an effort at modesty and clarifying that he doesnt wish to cause offense. I would have thought that article was good evidence that calm debate and examination of Islam is welcomed.

niencat

InFront wrote:

We do have one world authority, and that is The Qur'an.

I for one would not welcome the idea of a central governor for Islam or a 'Muslim Pope' or revived Caliphate. We already have ulema representing the ijma, and that is all that we need.
The heroic image of one human man leading the religious flock through his own faith, and not being under God's direction, unleashed in the West a relentless quest for domination and possesive claims on God betwen minorities. It never took root in the Muslim psyche. Thank god.
For all of its outward manifestations - we observe Hijab, are circumcised, may have grown a beard... Islam is actually an intensely private religion.

Muslims today are at the receiving end of Western domination. As an Ummah, we are living through the darkest hour of our history - the genocide in Bosnia, dispossession in Palestine, brutality in Kashmir, butchery in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Lebanon, international suspicion and Islam-o-phobia, abject poverty in Muslim Africa, and political repression across Muslim lands.
Al-hamdulillah 'ala kool ahal.

This undoubtedly makes us want to look to one leader to unite us.

But we shouldnt forget that Allah is with us always, and his word is with us in physical form with The Qur'an and elaborated in Sunnah.

I hope you read my post well... I am not saying one person. I am saying a group of people, elected by Muslims all over the world, should lead Muslims.

I think the same of the Christian churches, including the Roman Catholic church. I think the world as a whole has outgrown the practice of leadership and absolute obedience to one person. It is far better if any governing body consists of a number of people who are elected by people from that religion all over the world.