Leinster's chances..

obrien_pa

What do people think about the new look Leinster pack?!?

I'm personally looking forward to seeing Vermaas in action as hooker/prop and seeing Owen Finegan bring a bit of steel to the second-row/back row. Having Trevor Hogan and Stephen Keogh of Munster also adds to the competition for places and will hopefully instill a bit of fighting spirit into the pack.

Personally, I can't wait to see Leinster in action this year!:D

RuggieBear

I'm dying for the season to start again. I had pretty low expectations for leinster last year but was very pleasantly suprised by making the H Cup semi's and coming second in the league. This year i'd like to see an improvement but i really don't see it happening.

According to franno in the tribune the other day, the Keogh and Hogan are much stronger than their new leinster team mates. Whether this is superior Munster conditioning or the fact that the pair spent most of last season on the fringes of the team allowing them to spend more time working on bulking up, i don't know...

spanner

if we can recreate the magic of Toulouse anything is possible, good to see some guys coming in on the pack, hopefully we will get some real leaders.

hopefully the magners cup will give a bit more of a challenge, one problem is the lack of real competive games and also lets hope the provinices start to take the competion seriously, management and fans alike

consistancy is the key and getting the best from the players.

obrien_pa

I think the celtic/magners league is definitely on the up. That can only be good. I was at all the home leinster games last season and most were well-attended. There's definitely an interest in the provinces - and not just Munster - now.

Bring on the new season. Expectations are definitely higher for Leinster this year. The coaching team should now be expected to have settled in and the new recruits will definitely strengthen the team.

Cannae wait, mon!!

GreenDoor

I think Leinster are alot stronger this year. The new signings are will beef up the pact a bit.

I think they are a good bet for the Hcup. I don't think they'll win it but they'll cruise into the 1/4 finals probably with a home draw and you could then hedge your bet.

obrien_pa wrote:

I think the celtic/magners league is definitely on the up. That can only be good. I was at all the home leinster games last season and most were well-attended. There's definitely an interest in the provinces - and not just Munster - now.

I agree. Can't wait to see munsters (few!) new signings!

toomevara

obrien_pa wrote:

What do people think about the new look Leinster pack?!?

I'm personally looking forward to seeing Vermaas in action as hooker/prop and seeing Owen Finegan bring a bit of steel to the second-row/back row. Having Trevor Hogan and Stephen Keogh of Munster also adds to the competition for

Finnegan is completely past it, on the playing field at least...he was utterly anonymous in the premiership last year and had little or no impact on a badly underpowered Newcastle pack, which was routinely bullied about the pitch. Trevor Hogan is a solid workmanlike player but I dont see him or indeed any of these guys bringing grit and dog to what looks again like a very underpowered forward unit. Until Leinster get that sorted they'll always be the nearly boys of Irish provincial rugby(occasional miracle performance a la Toulouse aside).

obrien_pa

toomevara wrote:

Finnegan is completely past it, on the playing field at least...he was utterly anonymous in the premiership last year and had little or no impact on a badly underpowered Newcastle pack, which was routinely bullied about the pitch. Trevor Hogan is a solid workmanlike player but I dont see him or indeed any of these guys bringing grit and dog to what looks again like a very underpowered forward unit. Until Leinster get that sorted they'll always be the nearly boys of Irish provincial rugby(occasional miracle performance a la Toulouse aside).

We'll just have to wait and see, Toomevara, won't we?!?! I wouldn't rubbish this team's chances just yet. I know several Munster fans who were disappointed to see Hogan and Keogh leave for pastures new.

toomevara

Not writing off Leinster's chances at all, don't get me wrong,they've got a lot going for them, and I hope they prove me utterly wrong, but I just don't see them seriously challenging for honours this year.

Hogan and Keogh are solid players (hogan's from my home town and personally I'm a fan) but neither of them came close to getting a regluar first team slot at Munster, that should tell you something, particularly if they can walk into the leinster first XV.

RuggieBear

toomevara wrote:

Not writing off Leinster's chances at all, don't get me wrong,they've got a lot going for them, and I hope they prove me utterly wrong, but I just don't see them seriously challenging for honours this year.

Hogan and Keogh are solid players (hogan's from my home town and personally I'm a fan) but neither of them came close to getting a regluar first team slot at Munster, that should tell you something, particularly if they can walk into the leinster first XV.

i more or less agree unfortunately, but then again who were the players keeping those lads out of the team...?;)

obrien_pa

RuggieBear wrote:

i more or less agree unfortunately, but then again who were the players keeping those lads out of the team...?;)

Munster have the strongest second row in the business, well backed up by Mick O'D on the bench..so it's no wonder there was no room for a young, up and coming player like Hogan. I don't think he'll walk into the Leinster team, but he can only improve when he's given more opportunities at playing top teams.

As for Keogh in the back row - he'll face huge competition for places in Leinster just as he did in Munster. But, again, that fight for a place on the first team will help all concerned. His strength is his power and aggressive streak, but I'm not sure whether he'll be the first choice for a mobile back-row. (Leinster's back-row will probably be Cameron Jowitt (6), Gleeson (7) and Heaslip at 8?)

I dunno, I've just got a gut feeling this year that things are going to happen. I haven't had that about Leinster in a while. I had the same gut feeling about Munster last year, but so did everybody!!:D

daveirl

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obrien_pa

daveirl wrote:

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I haven't seen Keogh in action often enough against strong competition to rate him against Jowitt - who I've seen plenty of times. Jowitt is quick to the breakdown, aggressive and a great threat at the back of the lineout because of his height/agility. My views on Keogh await confirmation!..

My prediction was based on what I thought cheika/knox will go with.

Amazotheamazing

Keogh has the potential to be a great player, but overall I don't think Leinster win either the HEC or ML this year.

Corrigan for example, has no place near a pro team (great player that he was), Green is aging by the game, as is O'Kelly. Jackman still can't throw and Blayney is probably still too light. In the backs, Whitaker might be great, or hw might be anouther Aussie looking for a retirement plan, Contepomi can win and lose games with equal flair too. D'Arcy is out due to surgery and Hickie is not in the same class as he was prior to the injury.

toomevara

Amazotheamazing wrote:

In the backs, Whitaker might be great, or hw might be anouther Aussie looking for a retirement plan,

I think Whitaker is a class operator and the partnership between him and Contemponi has great potential. Dont think the guy's a timeserver and I've been impressed with him any time I've seen him play...He was cursed to have come up with Greegan(am convinced Greegan has Black and whites of Jones shafting a kangaroo,only way to explain his cap tally) if anyone else other than Jones had been managing the wallabies we'd have seen alot more of him on the international stage.

would also second daveirl re: Keogh, hope he can make the step up when the time comes.....

carlowboy

obrien_pa wrote:

There's definitely an interest in the provinces - and not just Munster - now.

I don't quite understand you. Are you saying that Munster fans took more interest in the competition than the other provinces? I'm afraid the opposite is true mate.

daveirl wrote:

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Interesting..... IMHO, Keogh wouldn't have made the NZ u-21s but hey.......

Amazotheamazing

carlowboy wrote:

I don't quite understand you. Are you saying that Munster fans took more interest in the competition than the other provinces? I'm afraid the opposite is true mate.




Interesting..... IMHO, Keogh wouldn't have made the NZ u-21s but hey.......

Actually, Munster's average's for the then CL were only behind Ulster's, Leinster and Connacht's were lower again, so I'm not sure what that jibe was about Carlowboy.

Jowitt was a second row in NZ, and not a very good one by their standards. He is only an average 6, Keogh will oust him this year, especially if Jowitt's back problems continue to occur.

carlowboy

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Actually, Munster's average's for the then CL were only behind Ulster's, Leinster and Connacht's were lower again, so I'm not sure what that jibe was about Carlowboy.

My point was that the fans didn't take it any shape or form as seriously as the HEC. And the fact that a lot of the fans would say "Oh but its only the Celtic League" if they lost. In comparison, a higher percentage of Leinster fans would have gone to both Celtic League and HEC matches.

Jowitt was a second row in NZ, and not a very good one by their standards. He is only an average 6, Keogh will oust him this year, especially if Jowitt's back problems continue to occur.

He wasn't a good one? How do you know this? He was on the NZ U-21 team back in 2004 only to be injured before the World Cup. And by most accounts, he would have been in the XV. You know, that U-21 team known as the greatest U-21 team ever.

Amazotheamazing

carlowboy wrote:

My point was that the fans didn't take it any shape or form as seriously as the HEC. And the fact that a lot of the fans would say "Oh but its only the Celtic League" if they lost. In comparison, a higher percentage of Leinster fans would have gone to both Celtic League and HEC matches.



He wasn't a good one? How do you know this? He was on the NZ U-21 team back in 2004 only to be injured before the World Cup. And by most accounts, he would have been in the XV. You know, that U-21 team known as the greatest U-21 team ever.

Munster fans (and Leinster fans) don't take the CL as seriously since very often neither province can put out a full strenght team, take the games during this years 6n's, prior to then Munster lead the league, Munster play effectively a reserve team against Ulster, Glasgow and the Dragons and effectively lose any chance of winning the league, do you expect fans to take that kind of league as seriously as the HEC? Munster lost something like 12 of their first choice players to Ireland camps during the league, no team can deal with that sort of playerloss, and as a result, fans don't take the league seriously. Despite this, Munster still gets higher crowds than Leinster.

Jowitt didn't make the grade to Super12, I'm not even sure he saw much action in the NPC, most top NZ u-21's are well sorted for pro contracts before they reach 19 or 20, Manning was training with a super12 team when he was 16 for example, the fact that Jowitt was cut completely adrift is a pretty strong indication of just how good he was seen as in NZ rugby circles.

carlowboy

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Jowitt didn't make the grade to Super12, I'm not even sure he saw much action in the NPC, most top NZ u-21's are well sorted for pro contracts before they reach 19 or 20, Manning was training with a super12 team when he was 16 for example, the fact that Jowitt was cut completely adrift is a pretty strong indication of just how good he was seen as in NZ rugby circles.

He did train with Auckland before he came here I think. And most often, they get pro contracts because of their performances in the World Cup but he had a long lay off at the time and was forced to miss it. He is an immense talent but does need to bulk up a good bit. He could well be capped for Ireland one day if Leinster manage to hold on to him.

Amazotheamazing

carlowboy wrote:

He did train with Auckland before he came here I think. And most often, they get pro contracts because of their performances in the World Cup but he had a long lay off at the time and was forced to miss it. He is an immense talent but does need to bulk up a good bit. He could well be capped for Ireland one day if Leinster manage to hold on to him.

Meh, he's overrated, he was cut from the pro squads (NPC) which is why he's overhere. Last year in the Times he was going on about how he wanted to wear an All Black jersey one day, hardly what I want to hear from prospective Ireland players. He's nowhere near as good as our best 6's (Quinlain, Leamy, Easterby and Neil Best (not necessarily in order)) and is so far way from being anywhere near our top 5 second rows it's not worth listing who's ahead of him.

carlowboy

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Meh, he's overrated, he was cut from the pro squads (NPC) which is why he's overhere.

Sorry but wasn't it the same for Manning? He had no prospects of playing pro rugby in NZ so he went to Munster. Sorry mate, but there's nothing I can do for that chip on your shoulder regarding Leinster.

Amazotheamazing

carlowboy wrote:

Sorry but wasn't it the same for Manning? He had no prospects of playing pro rugby in NZ so he went to Munster. Sorry mate, but there's nothing I can do for that chip on your shoulder regarding Leinster.

Hard to know about Manning, he came over here when he was 18 or so and was highly thought of in NZ but it's hard to tell if underage talent translates into a a pro career, after all, Jeremy Staunton was one of the talented schoolboy players Ireland ever produced but his pro career has been patchy. However, we were discussing Jowitt, what you gain by bring Manning into the discussion is uncertain, except that unable to disagree with me, you deide to change the subject?

Don't have a chip about Leinster, I don't like them, but I'm not bothered by them either. If you were discussing a good Leinster player like Lewis, or a great one like O'Driscoll, I'd have the utmost respect for them, but you're not, you're discussing an over rated, underweight NZ cast-off, like Jowitt.

daveirl

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Amazotheamazing

daveirl wrote:

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I honestly agree, Keogh has the potential to be a great player, he's hard, strong, smart, good hands and works hard. He's terribly unlucky to be behind Leamy.

Dave, I reckon Carlowboy will see any criticism of a Leinster player as proof of chips on our respective shoulders, rather than a fair expression of opinion. Like I said, discuss a great Leinster player and I'll be happy to praise him.

obrien_pa

I think jowitt's gotten a bit of a rough ride on this thread. Competition in NZ is obviously much stronger - they're not just the best team in the world at the moment, they've got the 3 best teams in the world..

As I said before, I'll have to reserve my opinions on Keogh. Just saw him a handful of times. Obviously, if he's a strong addition to the leinster squad - I'll be happy.

I mentioned Munster earlier as having a strong following. Simply because their success has meant lots of people with no previous interest in rugby have been attracted to the game because of them.

MarVeL

Jowitt seemed a decent enough player with occasional bursts where he was very good. It's possible thats as far as it goes for him or he may yet improve further, either way Keoghs coming in is a plus. If he pushes Jowitt on great, if he proves better than him still great.

Trouble is neither of them are front rows which is where the problem is in Leinster (and to an extent Ireland). Until we get something sorted there all our excellence on the rest of the pitch will struggle.

Maybe if we got a rule change to remove scrummaging we would do better

obrien_pa

MarVeL wrote:

Jowitt seemed a decent enough player with occasional bursts where he was very good. It's possible thats as far as it goes for him or he may yet improve further, either way Keoghs coming in is a plus. If he pushes Jowitt on great, if he proves better than him still great.

Trouble is neither of them are front rows which is where the problem is in Leinster (and to an extent Ireland). Until we get something sorted there all our excellence on the rest of the pitch will struggle.

Maybe if we got a rule change to remove scrummaging we would do better

I hear vermaas can play on both sides of the scrum as well as hooker? 3 players for the price of one - or a jack of all trades and master of none?!?

RuggieBear

obrien_pa wrote:

I hear vermaas can play on both sides of the scrum as well as hooker? 3 players for the price of one - or a jack of all trades and master of none?!?

stick him at prop with jackman at hooker but get vermaas to throw the ball in at lineouts

thebaz

does anyone have a link to the complete leinster panel/squad for the year ?
think it was in the irish times ??

obrien_pa

thebaz wrote:

does anyone have a link to the complete leinster panel/squad for the year ?
think it was in the irish times ??

www.leinsterrugby.ie has everything you'll need to know about the new squad and all things leinster.

Clash

For all the talk about Jowitt not being up to scratch, he has got a pretty impressive scoring record for Leinster (5 tries from 16 appearances). This compares favourably with the rest of the back rowers: Ciaran Potts (2 from 32), Stephen Keogh (2 from 54 with Munster), Niall Ronan (8 from 40), Keith Gleeson (9 from 73) and Jamie Heaslip (4 from 28). In fact the only other Leinster backrow with anything approaching Jowitts record is Niall Ronan with an average of 1 try every five games.

Before anyone says it, tries are not the only measure of a players prowess, but it certainly is a big reason for him being on the pitch.

crumlinbob

Into Cheika / Knox second year and their coaching skills should have bedded down well. Like the look of Whitaker, great passer off both hands. Will definately get our backs moving quicker. Hogan is a hard worker and very tough and fit. Not yet convinced about Keogh or Vermass. I think Finnegan is past it (hopefully he will prove us all wrong). There is still a couple of places to be filled, hopefully by quality forwards. I do however, predict a successful season for Leinster with hopefully a HC final. I even have the tickets.

pucan

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Whitaker might be great, or hw might be anouther Aussie looking for a retirement plan

Was talking to a couple of waratahs at a rugby lunch a few weeks ago and they were sorry to see him go, that he has another season or two in him.

bugler

Did any of you lads see the game against London Irish? Is it true Finegan is so fat that the lifters couldn't get him properly in the air for lineouts?

toomevara

Don't want to be sizeist or anything but was anyone struck by the 'ahem' diminuitiveness of Vermass? A little unsettling, particularly re: the Heineken cup, all I'll say is his techinique had better be superb or he's in for a torrid time indeed......

RuggieBear

toomevara wrote:

Don't want to be sizeist or anything but was anyone struck by the 'ahem' diminuitiveness of Vermass? A little unsettling, particularly re: the Heineken cup, all I'll say is his techinique had better be superb or he's in for a torrid time indeed......

haven't seen him play yet but Thornley commented on his "size" in his match report of the LI game.

toomevara

Just had a look at his details on the Leinster site. He's 5'9", which to my mind is on the small side for a modern prop. Perhaps he's a demon scrummager though, reckon he'll need to be.....

RuggieBear

small props can be an utter pain

bugler

I wouldn't write him off on the basis of size. He's of similar proportions to Pucciariello who is a handy scrummager. He won't be able to pack at 3 though, but that's not why they got him.

I thought he was brought in with loosehead in mind...so I was surprised when he started at hooker. Pity I didn't get to the match to see all this for myself.