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Empathy

  • 07-08-2006 11:28PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭


    So as not to drag the other thread off-topic:
    Solas wrote:
    Zillah wrote:
    There is "empathy" which is the ability the human brain has to understand and sympathise with the emotions of others. It is not a paranormal ability. It uses mundane cues (like expression, body language, tears) to understand the feelings of others and cause an appropriate reaction, like sadness or anger.

    Then we have Diana Troi-like Empathic Powers where there is communication between the brains and you literally "sense" the emotions of others.

    Hence when you said "a bit of both" I was a bit taken aback that a practicing Doctor would diagnose something like that.
    I'm only familiar with one kind of empathy.

    What are people's thoughts on this? I think Solas (correct me if I'm wrong) is refering to a more spiritual side of empathy.

    I'd be of the opinion that empathy is as I described above, that it comes from mudane cues and causes an emotional reaction within the observer. I think that can explain it fine.

    Do people think both types do/can coexist?


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    link to the original thread with references in context http://www.pie.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054973010

    What are people's thoughts on this? I think Solas (correct me if I'm wrong) is refering to a more spiritual side of empathy.

    funny I was going to start this thread for you.
    I think I conveyed three times my understanding of empathy in the other thread very clearly.
    zillah wrote:
    Brains tests show he had empathic tendencies? Empathic, like, putting yourself in their shoes, or empathic like Diana Troi?
    solas wrote:
    a bit of both if I'm not mistaken, as far as I'm aware it really refers to levels of sensitivity to others feelings and emotional states.
    zillah wrote:
    Please distinguish your usage of empathy, refering to the ability to sympathise with others, and empathic abilities, being the paranormal capacity to sense the emotions of others.
    solas wrote:
    I wasn't under the impression empathy was a paranormal ability?

    [from the dictionary definition:
    1. identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at pity.
    2. The attribution of one's own feelings to an object.
    zillah wrote:
    There is "empathy" which is the ability the human brain has to understand and sympathise with the emotions of others. It is not a paranormal ability. It uses mundane cues (like expression, body language, tears) to understand the feelings of others and cause an appropriate reaction, like sadness or anger.

    Then we have Diana Troi-like Empathic Powers where there is communication between the brains and you literally "sense" the emotions of others.

    Hence when you said "a bit of both" I was a bit taken aback that a practicing Doctor would diagnose something like that.
    solas wrote:
    I'm only familiar with one kind of empathy.
    as above


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Perhaps someone can point me in the right direction here, or maybe you could deign to explain it, but to the best of my ability to understand you have not answered it.

    I give two mutually exclusive ideas (one paranormal, one not paranormal) and you say its a bit of both. Then you say you know of only one. Which is it?

    Also, when you say "levels of sensitivity to" do you mean non-paranormal sensitivity to, or a telepathic sensitivity to?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    zillah I think maybe your upset with the show's reference to esp and empathic tendencies. To quote mini metro who referenced is almost word for word
    What the psycologist lady said was that these signals would suggest the child was capable of great empathy as they were deep in that area of the brain. She also said that this was the same area of the brain that some research suggested was related to ESP.

    I understand you associate deanna troi's character with paranormal abilities but to me its just an exaggerated view (she is a fictional character afterall) of heightened sensitivity to others feelings or emotional states or "empathy" as defined in the dictionary, which to me is entirely normal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    1 - I'm not upset in the slightest, please don't make observations about my emotional state (we've had this before...)
    2 - You still havn't answered the question. The dictionary definition was not written in the context of a paranormal forum, so phrases like "sensitivity to" can be taken several ways. You seem to be presuming we're all reading it the same way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    I don't know what you want from me Zillah, maybe someone else can provide the answers you're looking for.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Perhaps I havn't been clear in what I'm asking. To lay the issue out as clearly as I can, there are two ways of looking at empathy:

    1 - A non-paranormal view that involves the interpretation of normal social things such as body language, tone of voice, crying, tears, frowny faces etc to give the observer a sense of what the person is feeling.

    2 - A paranormal view that involves a spiritual or psychic link between the people allowing them to share emotions.

    I'm wondering what people's views on this are, whether they think its exclusively 1 or 2, or whether they think it is both. And if its both I wonder why they think 2 when 1 can explain it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    Empathy is not paranormal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    The other part of empathy people seem to miss.. It's not just understand/ sympathise another emotions
    It's more complex than that I'd guess. Sypathise to someone's emotions would be different to feeling someones emotions, though not paranormal, its an ability learnt through either suffering, heightened sensitivity to other's and observing other's behaviours etc.

    everyone has it, but more apparent in other's.


    Take example.

    Mam dad gave a kid emotional and physical abuse etc(being really general and untopical)... over the years that child grew up etc... tells say person A years later.. what it was like. that person A( Let's say A never had much painful experience like the kid above have) will say "I empathise with that". what does that say:rolleyes: unless the other person genuinly gave an empathic response with emotions or actions. that is not an empathic response.

    I think people get mixed up with empathy and sympathy to much.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    zillah wrote:
    I'm wondering what people's views on this are, whether they think its exclusively 1 or 2, or whether they think it is both. And if its both I wonder why they think 2 when 1 can explain it.
    ok. can you explain why my previous answers do not suffice?
    solas wrote:
    I understand you associate deanna troi's character with paranormal abilities but to me its just an exaggerated view (she is a fictional character afterall) of heightened sensitivity to others feelings or emotional states or "empathy" as defined in the dictionary, which to me is entirely normal.
    solas wrote:
    I'm only familiar with one kind of empathy.
    solas wrote:
    I wasn't under the impression empathy was a paranormal ability?

    [from the dictionary definition:
    1. identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at pity.
    2. The attribution of one's own feelings to an object.

    ???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    zillah wrote:
    What are people's thoughts on this? I think Solas (correct me if I'm wrong) is refering to a more spiritual side of empathy.
    you took information I had conveyed from a television program in another thread and claimed it was my opinion. six times zillah, six times I've answered your question with regard to my own personal view on empathy and yet you continue to assume my approach is paranormal. I just don't understand why you have issues with me and I'd really appreciate if you could just maybe discuss them or something. (or just get the fùck off my case)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    Here's an interesting report on empathy I found on the net, maybe it will answer some of the questions you're asking in relation to empathy.

    empathy


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    The "Deanna Troi" character in the fictional series has telepathic powers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    oh....right. ;)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    I think the differences between Zillah's two versions of empathy may be better explained by looking at the origin of the emotions a person feels.

    On one hand you can have empathy where you observe some one else and what you observe about them creates an emotional response within yourself.

    On the other hand you can have empathy whereby the empath is able to feel the emotions of someone else, through some kind of telepathic process.
    solas wrote:
    solas wrote:
    Here's an interesting report on empathy I found on the net, maybe it will answer some of the questions you're asking in relation to empathy.

    empathy
    Good link thanks, tbh I was confused myself about what you were trying to say myself. I think you tend to look at the end result, in which case both types of empathy are essentially the same thing, whereas zillah and myself tend to look more at the underlying mechanics, where you have different processes leading towards the same thing, and that's where the confusion arises.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    Telepathy (which is a paranormal concept) is not the same as empathy (which is not a paranormal concept).

    I think there is some confusion between the two terms because the fictional character "Deanna Troi" (whom the writers called an "empath") was in fact a telepath.
    Here's an interesting report on empathy I found on the net, maybe it will answer some of the questions you're asking in relation to empathy.

    empathy

    That article seems confused on this point, e.g.:
    [SIZE=-1]For some empaths, the lack of outside understanding towards paranormal events they experience, may lead to suppressing such abilities. (Most of these abilities are very natural and not a coincidence.) Empaths may unknowingly adopt the positive or negative attitude of others as their own. (This, however, can be overcome.) Empaths may need to follow interests in the paranormal and the unexplained with curiosity so as to explain and accept their life circumstances.

    Did the word "empath" (like klingon) exist before Star Trek? I can't find it in any dictionary. It looks like a fictional telepath who happened to be called by the writers an "empath" has caused confusion between empathy and telepathy suggesting that empathy is in some way paranormal.


    [/SIZE]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    ok, thanks for clarifying.
    steven wrote:
    On one hand you can have empathy where you observe some one else and what you observe about them creates an emotional response within yourself.
    I would consider that sympathy.
    steven wrote:
    On the other hand you can have empathy whereby the empath is able to feel the emotions of someone else, through some kind of telepathic process.
    Ok I understand this as empathy.
    In the report they consider it a telempathic process rather than telepathic.
    [edit:although I'm not sure what the difference is]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    That article seems confused on this point, e.g.:
    which part is confusing?
    It's an interesting document, worthy of discussion.
    Did the word "empath" (like klingon) exist before Star Trek?
    I believe so..?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    For some empaths, the lack of outside understanding towards paranormal events they experience, may lead to suppressing such abilities. (Most of these abilities are very natural and not a coincidence.) Empaths may unknowingly adopt the positive or negative attitude of others as their own. (This, however, can be overcome.) Empaths may need to follow interests in the paranormal and the unexplained with curiosity so as to explain and accept their life circumstances.
    S.O. wrote:
    That article seems confused on this point, e.g.:
    apologies, was distracted for a minute.
    In reading it in context it refers to the tendency for empaths to have paranormal experiences.
    Empaths frequently experience déjà vu and synchronicities. What may initially start as, "Oh, what a coincidence", will lead to the understanding of synchronicities as an aspect of who they are. These synchronicities will become a welcomed and continually expanding occurrence. As an understanding of self grows, the synchronicities become more fluent and free flowing. The synchronicities can promote a feeling of euphoria as empaths identify with them and appreciate the connection to their empathic nature.
    Empaths are most likely to have had varying paranormal experiences throughout their lives. NDE's (Near death experiences) and or OBE's (Out of body experiences) can catapult an unaware empath into the awakening period and provide the momentum for a journey of discovery


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    solas wrote:
    which part is confusing?
    The confusion is between empathy and paranormal traits like telepathy, clairvoyance and so forth.
    article wrote:
    [SIZE=-1]Empaths have the ability to scan another's psyche for thoughts and feelings or for past, present, and future life occurrences. Many empaths are unaware of how this actually works, and have long accepted that they were “sensitive” to others.
    and
    [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Empaths experience empathy towards family, children, friends, close associates, complete strangers, pets, plants and inanimate objects. Thus, an empath can feel the emotions of people and things at a distance. Some are empathic towards animals (the “Horse Whisperer”), to nature, to the planetary system, to mechanical devices or to buildings. Others will have a combination of the above.
    Empathy does not imply telepathy or other paranormal powers. It is not a paranormal concept. The author of this article does not appear to understand the concept.

    I believe the origin of this misunderstanding comes from the character in the fictional series who was a telepath but was called by the writers of that an "empath", a word that I don't think existed before the series.
    [/SIZE]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    solas wrote:
    apologies, was distracted for a minute.
    In reading it in context it refers to the tendency for empaths to have paranormal experiences.
    In the other quotes above, it appears that for the author, the word empath involves paranormal powers, not merely that paranormal powers are associated with empathy.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    can you reference?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    solas wrote:
    ok. can you explain why my previous answers do not suffice?

    you took information I had conveyed from a television program in another thread and claimed it was my opinion. six times zillah, six times I've answered your question with regard to my own personal view on empathy and yet you continue to assume my approach is paranormal. I just don't understand why you have issues with me and I'd really appreciate if you could just maybe discuss them or something. (or just get the fùck off my case)

    Because you were vague and contradictory? (further explained below)

    Please stop trying to make things personal, this has nothing to do with you personally, we've had this before, I have no bias against you, stop imagining one or commenting on it. If you really really want to discuss this then PM me, but I'd prefer if you stopped making personal comments in paranormal threads. No need for the language either.
    SkepticOne wrote:
    The "Deanna Troi" character in the fictional series has telepathic powers.

    Actually its portrayed as different to telepathy. Troi can psychically sense the emotions of others, but not words or concepts, just the raw emotion. In that way she's different from a true telepath. Hence why I thought she'd make such a good illustration. However, it would appear the specifics of the example went over some people's heads, my bad.
    stevenmu wrote:
    zillah and myself tend to look more at the underlying mechanics, where you have different processes leading towards the same thing, and that's where the confusion arises.

    I thought everyone worked like that.
    solas wrote:
    stevenmu wrote:
    On one hand you can have empathy where you observe some one else and what you observe about them creates an emotional response within yourself.
    I would consider that sympathy

    Actually no, thats empathy (number 1, above). Sympathy is the quality of sympathising, ie, to feel compassion or pity for them. An evil torturer could have empathy, but not sympathy. Hence, if the above definition of empathy is not what you'd call empathy then your view is not the non-paranormal dictionary one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    to zillah
    in the previous thread you questioned the diagnosis of empathy in terms of a fictional character from a sci fi program when referenced in context of a diagnosis made by a psychologst on tv. You then you made it personal by suggesting I made that claim and consequently started this thread with that in mind. You stated that if such was the case you were a "bit put out" by any doctor diagnosing empathy in those terms and when I suggested it was the program you had issues with and not my opinion, you continued to seek confirmation from me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    Actually no, thats empathy (number 1, above).
    I disagree, observing anothers feelings does not neccessarily suggest that one feels them as is the case with emapthy, although they may feel for them which is sympathy, or as you have stated to have pity for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    solas wrote:
    I disagree.

    If you look up a number of definitions you'll find that although there is a lot of crossover between them, sympathy is often associated with feeling pity or compassion, while empathy is not. Sympathy requires empathy, but not visa versa. Hence, what Stevenmu defined as empathy, which you called sympathy, was empathy.

    Hence, your usage of the word empathy remains ambiguous.

    Also, the only time I've refered even distantly to the TV show in this thread was in the very first post.
    observing anothers feelings does not neccessarily suggest that one feels them as is the case with emapthy, although they may feel for them which is sympathy, or as you have stated to have pity for.

    Observing someone's feelings is just observing their feelings. Observing them, and understanding what they're feeling (well enough to feel it, or something like it) based on those cues, is empathy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    steven wrote:
    On one hand you can have empathy where you observe some one else and what you observe about them creates an emotional response within yourself.
    I disagree, observing anothers feelings does not neccessarily suggest that one feels them as is the case with emapthy, although they may feel for them which is sympathy, or as you have stated to have pity for.
    If you look up a number of definitions you'll find that although there is a lot of crossover between them, sympathy is often associated with feeling pity or compassion, while empathy is not. Sympathy requires empathy, but not visa versa. Hence, what Stevenmu defined as empathy, which you called sympathy, was empathy.
    steven refers to empathy simply as an observation which incurs a reponse, how does this differ from sympathy?
    zillah wrote:
    Also, the only time I've refered even distantly to the TV show in this thread was in the very first post.
    and your very reason for starting this thread. You suggested I correct you if you were wrong and I did.
    I never suggested once in the previous thread that empathy was a spiritual phenomena.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Ok, ok. An illustration.

    Illustration 1:

    An evil murderer tortures and kills someone. He has empathy because he can observe and understand their emotions as if he could feel them himself. He does not have smypathy because he feels no compassion for them.

    Illustration 2:

    A sociopath who knows no emotion kills someone. He feels neither empathy nor sympathy as he barely understands their emotions at all.

    Illustration 3:

    A nurse tends someone in pain. She sees and understands their suffering, and so has empathy. She also feels compassion and pity for them so she has sympathy.
    I never suggested once in the previous thread that empathy was a spiritual phenomena.

    To help the discussion, could you try and define your understanding of empathy without using a dictionary, in your own words, and how it functions. The functioning is important for us to understand if its paranormal or not, not just the end result.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    zillah wrote:
    Observing someone's feelings is just observing their feelings. Observing them, and understanding what they're feeling (well enough to feel it, or something like it) based on those cues, is empathy.
    isn't that a little different to steven's original definition?
    steven wrote:
    On one hand you can have empathy where you observe some one else and what you observe about them creates an emotional response within yourself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    No.

    Well, maybe Steven's was a bit more vague... (;)) Empathy causes you to feel what they're feeling, sympathy causes you to feel compassion or pity also.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    zillah wrote:
    On one hand you can have empathy where you observe some one else and what you observe about them creates an emotional response within yourself.
    you mean you didnt catch it the first time?
    heightened sensitivity to others feelings or emotional states or "empathy" as defined in the dictionary, which to me is entirely normal.
    and how it functions
    this is a new question.


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