Alleged Offence, Can I get out of it?

cormie

Just home from being abroad for the month of July and I'm greeted with a bleedin letter from An Garda Siochana:mad:

I was supposed to be away for 2 months or longer so I decided to give my car to my brother while I was gone. I drove it out and left it on a public road near his house. I wanted to send my insurance disc and cert to my provider so I would be able to get a refund for the non use on my return. So I took the disc from the car and posted it off. I was insured until the disc got to the company (which would have been about the 4th of July I'd say).

The letter says: "It is alleged that an offence has been committed NON DISPLAY OF INSURANCE DISC (10 days after date of Authentication of the certificate)*. blah blah blah, license number of car, parked in public on 8 July 2006*

*I'm not to sure what these bits mean and what's the 10 day thing about, if the 8th of July isn't 10 days after I sent in the disc, or does it matter?


The reason behind this is simple, my brother was going to get insured and taxed and have the car for himself while learning to drive. I didn't fully look into it and kept it on the long finger until about the last minute. Yes, it was in a public place without an insurance disc and it wasn't insured on the 8th of July:(

Is it tough cookies and sort myself out properly the next time I contemplate doing such a serious crime?

unkel

cormie wrote:

Yes, it was in a public place without an insurance disc and it wasn't insured on the 8th of July:(

Why did you leave it on the public road? Surely you knew you could get done for not displaying an insurance disc? Could you not have parked it on someone's drive?

cormie

My brother doesn't have a driveway at his place, it's in the middle of Dublin. I knew it was an offense but to be honest I didn't even think of it at the time, I was going that night.

Can I plead insanity or anything like that?;)

bazz26

I'm afraid once you have your car parked on a public place you must display a valid insurance and tax disc by law.

Really you should have parked it on private property such as someone's driveway or garage. I don't see any way out of not paying the fine. A learning experience for you.

cormie

Aye, at least nobodies life was put in danger and I got no penalty points. Does anyone know what the bolded parts mean though?

overdriver

I think it means that they give you 10 days after you renew your insurance to display the disc.

Try saying your brother/ mother took the disc in to send it on as you had gone away, and as he / she doesn't drive, didn't realise the consequences.

I would take my chances with this in court.

Straight up!!!

elexes

if you still have the disks you could say that you take them out of your car when you are not in it because your scared people will steal them .

cormie

hehe, I welcome your input ya chancers:D

Well the 8th of July was less than 10 days I was uninsured for. However, the car was uninsured on the 8th of July which is probably the main factor?

What does going to court involve? Where would I have to go? What would I have to do? How would I arrange it etc etc? Would it be be more hassle than paying the €60 fine? As in, if I worked the amount of hours it would take to sort it out, would I earn more than €60?

Sizzler

This is totally contradictory to an issue I raised with the coppers a few mths back. There was a car dumped on my estate with no tax/insurance/NCT displayed, rang the local station and told me there was nothing they could do as "the car isnt committing an offence".

Hmmm :mad:

overdriver

It isn't about whether or not you'd earn the 60 quid. It's about not giving them any more than you have to. it was a genuine mistake. Ring the local cop shop and see what they say. Ask to speak to the Garda in question, however be prepared to meet a brick wall. You may not, but the chances are you'll get the "letter of the law" reply.

Honestly, take your chances in court with the above excuse. You went away, your mum heard that someone up the road had their discs stoles nad the windscreen smashed to do it, and she decided to " do you a favour"...

MercMad

Your car wasn't insured, you didn't dispaly a disc...............pay the fine !

Going to Court will cost you more .......believe me !

overdriver

That attitude is not what made this country great!

Draupnir

cormie wrote:

hehe, I welcome your input ya chancers:D

Well the 8th of July was less than 10 days I was uninsured for. However, the car was uninsured on the 8th of July which is probably the main factor?

What does going to court involve? Where would I have to go? What would I have to do? How would I arrange it etc etc? Would it be be more hassle than paying the €60 fine? As in, if I worked the amount of hours it would take to sort it out, would I earn more than €60?

Trust me man, take it to court. Its not hassle really, get a half day from work and thats about it.

The garda in question has to go up and explain to the judge the circumstances, then the judge asks you to explain what happened and tell him what your reason is. If you explain that your mother removed the tax disc for you while you were on holiday, purely because a nearby neighbour had theres stolen and your dear old mammy didnt realise the consequences, you'll be grand.

IrishRover

unkel wrote:

Why did you leave it on the public road? Surely you knew you could get done for not displaying an insurance disc? Could you not have parked it on someone's drive?

But hang on, exactly as Sizzler says, that is contrary to what I thought the situation here in Ireland is - or at least certainly was. In the UK, yes they brought in a system where a car parked in a public place must have a valid tax disc displayed, but in Ireland I think the situation is that if you are driving a car on the public roads then you must have a valid tax (and insurance) disc displayed. If that's not the case now, then it used to be and I'd like to know when it changed. Any of the "custard coppers" (it's a Barryboys thing) care to comment?

Sizzler wrote:

This is totally contradictory to an issue I raised with the coppers a few mths back. There was a car dumped on my estate with no tax/insurance/NCT displayed, rang the local station and told me there was nothing they could do as "the car isnt committing an offence".

Hmmm :mad:

Seth Brundle

IrishRover wrote:

in Ireland I think the situation is that if you are driving a car on the public roads then you must have a valid tax (and insurance) disc displayed.

The law states that if it is *in* a public place - not if it is being driven in a public place.

@ Draupnir - would that involve perjury?

IrishRover

Are you sure though KBannon? Because although I'm doubting myself now, I thought I was sure that it was worded something along the lines of "any vehicle being used on the public road must display... etc".

If it is as you say now I really think there must have been a change to this at some point. Hate to be doing the asking for proof thing, but do you have a direct quote from an act or a link or whatever that definitively states what the law says regarding this?

mikedragon32

kbannon wrote:

The law states that if it is *in* a public place - not if it is being driven in a public place.

@ Draupnir - would that involve perjury?

kbannon, you're right.

Draupnir is yet another who seems to think that it's okay to commit a crime to get out of another one.

OP, take your medicine and learn your lesson.

Seth Brundle

@ Irish Rover - I stand to be corrected but Im fairly sure.

samo

I watched a good few cases go throughn the Dublin parking fines court last week as was prosecution witness for a case being held there. The judge that day came down like a ton of bricks on people that didnt have insurance and saw a good few people banned and fined over it.

There were a couple of cases that were struck out where they hasnt displayed the disc but did in fact have insurance, (they even got one woman for not displaying an NCT cert which I was surprised about) but they had to show an insurance cert showing they were insured at the time the offence took place.

Like I say those that had insurance but just no disc got on ok bar a stern telling off but those without insurance whatsoever did not fare very well at all.

IrishRover

kbannon wrote:

@ Irish Rover - I stand to be corrected but Im fairly sure.

Same here - I could be wrong but was quite sure up to now that what I was saying was right!

Samo - you didn't say whether these people were in court because they were caught driving while not displaying tax/insurance discs or whether their cars had simply been parked on a public road while not displaying the discs!

samo

Sorry irish Rover - there was one where the person was PARKED on a public road and the gards had observed the car without tax, NCT and insurance cert.

This was the one that was struck out but they had to show there was a valid insurance cert for the time the offence took place and they also had to change court from Tallaght to Richmond Court to see the same judge so was a fair bit of hassle for them

(just to add the solicitor for this woman was pretty good but even so still got one of a hell of a warning over it!)

cormie

Hehe, should have just typed the whole thing. The blah blah blah bit included:

"Contrary to Section 11 (as amended by Section 6 of the Road Traffic Act, 1968) of the Road Traffic Act, 1961 involving driving or use of* a mechanically propelled vehicle bearing identification mark ***** (you know it Irish Rover;)) in a public place at ..."

*hmmmmmmmmm!


To be honest, I don't think there's much of a lesson to be learned here. It's something that would never have be seen as a crime in the good oul days. Before law and all that stuff:rolleyes: Is there any way you can be excluded from the law? A nomad of the emerald isle?:)

IrishRover

Well it all seems a bit vague still because while I do (at least think) I know that it's an offence not to display the discs, I've been told by insurance companies when the renewal disc is in the post that it's fine to drive with either no disc or the previous expired one, and that I'm covered just fine.

The other thing is with tax renewal, you can do it online up to a month after the disc expires, so that seems to imply that you can actually drive with an expired disc legally for at least a month.

And I wonder whether the one case where the car was observed parked in a public place, did they just observe the person immediately after having parked it and then waited for him or her to get back in the car and start the car again?

I think I know someone who I can ask that can answer the question definitively as to whether it is an offence not to display a valid tax disc on a car that is parked on a public road. In the meantime, it would be interesting to hear what the gardaí on the forum here think the situation is.

Just saw Cormie's post now...

Contrary to Section 11 (as amended by Section 6 of the Road Traffic Act, 1968) of the Road Traffic Act, 1961 involving driving or use of* a mechanically propelled vehicle

Well that seems pretty definitive!
So if it wasn't in use then no offence was committed!

samo

IrishRover wrote:

And I wonder whether the one case where the car was observed parked in a public place, did they just observe the person immediately after having parked it and then waited for him or her to get back in the car and start the car again?

Because the case was switched from a different court I didnt catch the background to it but got the impression that, it was approx 3 young ones sitting in a car parked on the road and the police approached the car which how it came about. Slightly different to cormies case.

IrishRover

Seems like it was (at least considered to be) in use then Samo.

Well unless Cormies brother was actually caught driving it with no discs in the window then no offence has been committed and to bring this to court is a waste of the Judge's time, and he would be quite angry with a guard who chose to do that.

cormie

Deadly, you reckon I can get out of it then? My brother definitely didn't use the car, I left my license in the car and asked him to get it out, so unless we were really unlucky and he did that at the time of the offense, it was in use, but I doubt it very much. Must I go to court over this or can I do it an easier way? What about the fact that the car wasn't insured at the time?

IrishRover

cormie wrote:

Deadly, you reckon I can get out of it then? My brother definitely didn't use the car, I left my license in the car and asked him to get it out, so unless we were really unlucky and he did that at the time of the offense, it was in use, but I doubt it very much. Must I go to court over this or can I do it an easier way? What about the fact that the car wasn't insured at the time?

It's not that you can get out of it. You've nothing to get out of! If this ever did get up to court and you say that the car was never in use on a public road during the period that the car was not displaying a current tax/insurance disc, the case will be dismissed. When somebody attempts to prosecute a non-case like this, the judge considers his time to have been wasted. All judges consider their time to be vastly more important than any prosecutor and I have seen members of the gardaí getting a right bolliking from judges for doing this.

Anyway, IANAL as they say, so confirm this with a legal professional (and not someone who just works in conveyancing or business law or something).

blorg

Cormie, explain the situation to the garda and see if you can get out of it. Beyond that, if all you are looking at is a €60 fine and no penalty points I would just pay it; I wouldn't consider it worth an afternoon's court appearance even if you did get off the €60 (which is itself far from definite.)

cormie

Well an afternoon would be well spent in my oppinion if it meant saving €60 and having a clean sheet... on that note, will this have any negative effects for the future? You know the way before you start a policy you are asked have you any offences etc?

I was just onto my insurance company and yep, I wasn't insured from the 4th of July, I'm insured again now, but I wasn't insured when the offence took place. Does this make a difference? Is it just a case that the car wasn't in use, no offence took place. Like Sizzlers situation:

There was a car dumped on my estate with no tax/insurance/NCT displayed, rang the local station and told me there was nothing they could do as "the car isnt committing an offence".

I wasn't committing an offence?

I don't have to get an afternoon off work or anything, but when you say "If this ever did get up to court", what do you mean? Can I sort it before it gets to court?

What would I need a solicitor to clarify for me?


By the way, I just reinsured myself and I can drive without the disc no problem for 10 days, if the garda stop me and don't believe me, I just tell them to ring my insurer, who are actually going to do me up a letter saying it was suspended at the time in case I need it:) Britton Insurance by the way, they are pretty good and the cheapest I could find.:cool:

IrishRover

Well, in my opinion, no offense took place and so maybe if you talk to the guard in question he might have had a chance to rethink this in the meantime and has already realised this. So if you try that you could save both of you some time and hassle. If not, I expect he will just be setting himself up to look foolish in front of the judge. Like I say though, I'm not a lawyer and only a legal expert in the field of law that deals with motoring related offences is qualified to give you a definitive answer.

zilog_jones

Sizzler wrote:

This is totally contradictory to an issue I raised with the coppers a few mths back. There was a car dumped on my estate with no tax/insurance/NCT displayed, rang the local station and told me there was nothing they could do as "the car isnt committing an offence".

There was a car abandoned on my street (just parked on the side of the road) for a few months and the guards came one day (dunno if reported or what) and got it towed away.

cormie

Ok so the garda in question will be in his station at 15:10 today.

I'm going to ring him up and have a chat. What should I say to him? Point out that it wasn't in use for a start, but what about the fact that the policy was suspended at the time of the offence? Should I bother to tell him why there was no disc in it, that I left it with my brother for him to learn how to drive while I was away and all that?

Thanks for the help so far everyone:)

IrishRover

Can't really walk you through the whole thing Cormie, but I wouldn't bother with irrelevant details. Especially because leaving it with your brother so he could learn how to drive sounds like somebody intended to use it.

It had no tax or insurance, but it wasn't in use, so no offence has been committed. That's as simple as I see it.

FX Meister

I had to do similar recently with my old car. I just scanned the insurance disc and printed it out to replace the disc I sent back to the company. Some Gardaí don't care about drivers who drive with copied discs so I didn't see a problem with it just lying idle on a public road.

cormie

Thanks for the replies. He wasn't in yesterday so I'm going to ring him today. Any last words of advice for how I should approach the conversation? Never had to deal with the law before.

IrishRover

Well knowing human nature I'd try to let him keep his dignity about it. You know how people can dig their heels in when they know they are wrong but can't bring themselves to admit it categorically. So try not to be smart about it, but just ask if whether the situation might be different to what is written on the form. That way you can both blame the form, or how confusingly the act is written or something along those lines and he gets not to loose face as such. If he wants to continue with it regardless and insists on seeing you in court, I can't see how it won't end in him getting a right ticking off from the judge as long as everything is as you say it is.

Keith C

From reading the post it looks like your brother lives at a differant address then you, so the guards will defo point that out & ask why the car was left there.
Secondly the car would have to be re-registered into your brothers name if he wanted to insure it, as you cannot insure anything unless you have an insurable interest in it i.e own it!

Keith C

As a matter of interest, how much did you expect to save suspending cover for two months?? (even though it only ended up being one month)

cormie

Keith, as long as it's more than the 40c stamp it cost to send in my cert and disc I don't care how much it is as long as it's money I wouldn't have got if I hadn't sent it in;)

Just off the phone to a collegue of the chap who gave me the ticket. She said I definitely have a case and it's up to the guy who gave it to me to cancel it, so he'll be ringing me back on Monday I think and I'll talk to him about it. She said it's because the wording that I have a case, but she did say that it is an offence to have your car in a public place without an insurance disc displayed?

IrishRover

cormie wrote:

She said it's because the wording that I have a case, but she did say that it is an offence to have your car in a public place without an insurance disc displayed?

Yeah, what did I tell you, the wording... it's very confusing alright
Grand so, hopefully you'll get a call saying they'll let you away with it so and nobody ends up being "wrong".

TempestSabre

samo wrote:

.... (they even got one woman for not displaying an NCT cert which I was surprised about) ...

I'm surprised about that too. Theres been lots of posts about the Guards ignoring the NCT. Must check my own.

Fey!

Have only read the first page and a half here, so this may already be answered. If not, here's my experience.

Got nobbled by this one 2 years ago myself. My tax and insaurance discs were displayed, but they were under the darkened section of my windscreen at the top (factory tint, by the way!). Could be seen fine during the day, but not too easily at night. Never had any problems at checkpoints, but was parked on the street one night and came back to 2 tickets. Caught up with the Garda straight away, but he said I'd have to take it up with the district office in the station, as once the tickets were written he couldn't do anything about it (he was fine about it; honest mistake. However, the female Garda with him was very snotty, and he had to tell her to basically get lost).
Jigs and reels, got the ticket for non display of insurance quashed, but had to pay the tax one as my tax disc was 4 days out of date. Sold the car a week later (that was in 2004, but for some reason the car is still registered to me despite sending the papers to Shannon!).

WRT tax; if stopped in the first month after expiry, they'll generally say "grand, get it taxed, drive on". After the first month, ticket. After the 3rd month, seizure.

You have until the end of the first week of the second month (5 weeks after expiry) to get it taxed without having to pay arrears.

IrishRover

Seems like there's not only the one guard out there who thinks that it's an offence not to display the discs whether the car is in use or not. Maybe they are taking a wider interpretation of the phrase "being driven or in use on a public road" and considering being parked to mean "in use". Then again, it could be that they saw you getting out of the car and so that implies that you had just parked it there and therefore had just driven it. Can any of the coppers on here give their opinion on the whole issue?

As for not being able to do anything about his mistake once he'd made it, that sounds very old school civil service. Why do you think the woman guard was going hysterical about it out of interest?

Fey! wrote:

WRT tax; if stopped in the first month after expiry, they'll generally say "grand, get it taxed, drive on".

My guess is that's because it is grand. I'm thinking why wouldn't it be if:

You have until the end of the first week of the second month (5 weeks after expiry) to get it taxed without having to pay arrears.

cormie

Do you reckon it's an offence to drive a car that the tax is out of date on since the end of June? I'm claiming non use, to save a months tax payment, which is probably about €23 and not driving my car until I get it taxed for August, which will be today, but I needed it yesterday.

So even though the lady on the phone to me yesterday told me "it is actually an offence to have it in a public area without the disc".. you think she is wrong too? I checked www.irishstatutebook.ie and there is nothing in the sections quoted above about it. I can't find the "being driven or in use" part either though.

Wish the law was a bit more clear. Is there anyone you can ring up to ask these questions or does it have to be a solicitor who you have to pay for?

Fey!

If you're parked on the public road and your tax is out, you're still on and technically using the public road, so you still need to be taxed. Same with insurance.

At least that's my take on it.

OP - contact the district office at your local Garda station and have a chat with them.

IrishRover

Fey! wrote:

If you're parked on the public road and your tax is out, you're still on and technically using the public road, so you still need to be taxed. Same with insurance.

At least that's my take on it.

That is a possible interpretation alright, but I don't think it makes sense to interpret "driven or in use" to mean "parked on", otherwise why not just write the act simply as "being on" the public road.

Cormie, yes I think the lady on the phone is wrong, but as I say I'm not a lawyer... I wouldn't want to push the issue of the 5 week grace period with the tax thing though if there's any room for debate about the other thing.

cormie

Yeah, sure I'll be getting it taxed properly today.

Just thinking of something, what about cars on a car transporter, they are technically on the public road, but not in use or being driven, these are hardly all committing offences by being on the public road. The lady on the phone said that yeah, she doesn't think I was committing an offence by having it parked there without the ins disc if the letter said driving or in use, but then she went on to say it is an offence to have it on a public road without ins or tax

I just hope the chap who gave it to me is a nice guy and not a power tripper.

What if the district office don't know their stuff either? Should I talk to them even though it wasn't my local station that the garda in question is from? He's in Terenure.

IrishRover

cormie wrote:

The lady on the phone said that yeah, she doesn't think I was committing an offence by having it parked there without the ins disc if the letter said driving or in use, but then she went on to say it is an offence to have it on a public road without ins or tax

To me it sounds like basically she's saying yeah you're not wrong but then again neither are we, which sets the situation up for a dignified widthdrawl where no one loses face.

I just hope the chap who gave it to me is a nice guy and not a power tripper.

To be honest for his sake I hope he isn't because otherwise I'm confident he'll have egg on his face if he insists on going to court with it.

I wouldn't be surprised if you find the district office or whatever it is either don't know or won't give you a definitive answer. Most people shy away from putting their neck on the line like this in case they can be later held accountable for something based on what they might have said. Pretty much why they invented "business speak" so that nothing really has to mean anything any more.

Anyway, talk to the guard in question politely and get back to us to let us know how it went...

IrishRover

So what happened?

TommyK

IrishRover wrote:

The other thing is with tax renewal, you can do it online up to a month after the disc expires, so that seems to imply that you can actually drive with an expired disc legally for at least a month.

When your tax runs out, you have 1 month to renew it. When you do renew it (within that time) it starts off from where the previous one ended.

I have told that to a number of people and they don't believe me - everyone thinks you have to renew it the day it runs out (which is why it's always packed to the rafters in the tax office at the start of the month.)

But, if you look at the tax renewal that comes in the post, it says something along the lines of "Your last tax runs out at the end of July... renew your tax before or during August..." (I don't remember the exact wording off-hand.)

Tommy.

cormie

Just happened to go looking for this thread to give an update.

Anyway... after ringing the station about 20 times (literally) and leaving my name and number with about 3 different gardai, the one I want to talk to, who gave me the ticket, STILL hasn't rang me back and he is NEVER around:mad: Within this time, the 28 days has expired and I'm now up to a €90 fine and I still haven't talked to him.

I posted in the legal discussion forum. Have a read of this. Talk about small print. It still says nothing about "unattended" though. I'm going to see what the chap has to say about it. His collegue did say I definitely have a case, hopefully he will feel the same:o