Kids Carried On Bikes

stovelid

I know its a bit trivial but does this get on your nerves? I'm talking about adult cyclists carrying young kids on bikes (or much worse, those trendy trailer things that attach to the back of the bike)and cycling on the road. When I pass them out, I'm tempted to think they are just morons prioritizing an eviromental position over the safety of their child.

azezil

Its good excercise and a fun activity for all involved...

biko

Helmets all around and it's great. If only more people used bikes this would be a better city.

Traumadoc

How exactly do they get on your nerves?
Do they slow you down getting to the next tailback?

How exactly should they bring their children to school- Drive?
Or perhaps cycle on the footpath?

stovelid

The original point was that its dangerous for a child if the bike topples over or those trailer things get clipped by a passing car.

The fact that you are choosing to see my point as pro-car and anti-cycling (which it patently wasn't)is far more indicative of your problem than mine.

Traumadoc wrote:

How exactly do they get on your nerves?
Do they slow you down getting to the next tailback?

How exactly should they bring their children to school- Drive?
Or perhaps cycle on the footpath?

Smellyirishman

It's also dangerous if a parent trips on the stairs while carrying thier child...

I am sure that if the risk were really that high then we would hear about the dangers, but I have never heard about accidents involving cyclists carrying thier kids. I have however heard about child deaths because they were not secured in a car.

Yes, the kid is a little more exposed on a bike, but I am sure the parent is aware and takes every precaution that they can. With the exception of the motorists around them causing an accident, I would say the parent/child combo is fairly secure.

ArphaRima

The bike trailers arent my cup o' tea, but I have to applaud the parents. I hate the idea that parents are bad parents if they dont wrap their kids with a brand new Volvo SUV. Cycling is perfectly safe. It is not an unacceptable risk.

You're a bad mother if you dont give your kids actimel. They stay black and white if they dont have it. Give your kids actimel. They'll be in colour.
Advertising peer pressure doesnt work. I swear.

Shabadu

We often thought of getting a bike to drop our kiddo up to creche, but I just couldn't do it. I'd rather spend the extra 45 minutes walking with a buggy than zipping up on a bike on City Centre roads. Dublin roads are terrifying, there are hardly any cycle paths, and some people just seem to think of them as a bit of extra road space for their jeeps.

Ruu_Old

biko wrote:

Helmets all around and it's great. If only more people used bikes this would be a better city.

Agreed and apart from wearing no helmet it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

stovelid

The kids and stairs anlaogy is unhelpful.

This is not a pro-car thread yet all the replies make (deserved but off topic)value judgements about SUVs, death rates etc but it is not the point I was trying to make.

I very rarely see people carrying kids on bikes so maybe that explains the low accident report rate.

Surely the fact that cyclists get killed regularly enough means that its pretty dangerous in such an anti-cycling without towing a kid along as well.

I very rarely drive to work, (make red cow - bray journey by Luas and Dart) only using the wifes car usually for trips that are long distance or impossible by public transport.

I would be definitely be on the cyclists side vs motorists so it's not a pro-car tirade.

Surely its possible to think that carrying kids in this way is dangerous without being a pro-car zealot?

stovelid

and a helmet really helps a child when you are buzzing along a sh*t road, precariosuly balancing a toddler on the cross bar and some moron in a jeep clips you or you hit a pot hole?

Ruu wrote:

Agreed and apart from wearing no helmet it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

egan007

dangerous...what's not dangerous

You should work for the HSA and become a ballbreaker :-)

Of course I understand you see it as dangerous but where do you stop?
Should we start Making sure kids get wrapped up in cotton wool?

There is a certain amount of risk associated with everything.
I think this is appropriate to 'Risk' carrying a child on a bike.

I was carried to school for years on a bike and apart form being an asshole i turned out ok.

subway

i propose a moratorium on bicylcing / car threads on the internet until everyone can get over themselves.
yes, car drivers piss off cyclists and , yes, cyclists piss off car drivers.
woooowooowooowoowoowoo.
well done,
can yis not have a thread without it always degrading into
"but you do "y", which is way worse than "x" that we do"
"no no no, "x" mixed with "z" is ten times worse than "y" any day of the week".

ffs, your all getting boring. very boring.
replace boring with self righteous depending on how angry your response to this reply is

stovelid

ach its just the carrying aspect strook me as doubly dangerous this morning. Its not a tirade against cycling or even kids themselves cycling to school etc.

egan007 wrote:

I was carried to school for years on a bike and apart form being an asshole i turned out ok.

Spoilt f*cker, some of us had to walk.

Smellyirishman

stovelid wrote:

Surely the fact that cyclists get killed regularly enough means that its pretty dangerous in such an anti-cycling without towing a kid along as well.

Are you sure it's a regular occurance? I would not have thought so. If you have any articles I would like to read them. (I am not being condesending by the way, I honestly have no idea how frequent cyclist deaths are, I would have guessed irregular though)

stovelid wrote:

Surely its possible to think that carrying kids in this way is dangerous without being a pro-car zealot?

None of us have put you accross as any sort of zealot. I assume the alternative your offering to putting them on the bike is to put them in a car though, right? So that is why the views on cars have also been raised in your thread.

Traumadoc

There have been 4 cyclist killed this year - vs about 200 car occupants. Just because something looks dangerous does not mean it is. Children cycling on a parents bike are probably safer than children cycling on their own, or walking to school on their own.
The low speeds in dublin due to the heavy traffic mean that relatively few are killed or seriously injured. I have found that during daytime there is relatively little "major trauma". however in the country areas the speeds are still quite high and as a result there is still a lot of paediatric trauma.
Last week I was involved in the management on a severly injured child who had been knocked off a bike while on their own.

I am not anti car as I own 3 ( including a SUV) and rarely cycle

Smellyirishman

stovelid wrote:

and a helmet really helps a child when you are buzzing along a sh*t road, precariosuly balancing a toddler on the cross bar and some moron in a jeep clips you or you hit a pot hole?

Sorry, I didn't think you were talking about a parent "cross-barring" a toddler, I thought they had them in a proper kids seat. That's questionable alright, especially depending on how old exactly the kid is.

Although, if a moron in a jeep hits you, what have you done wrong?

Shabadu

Traumadoc wrote:

There have been 4 cyclist killed this year - vs about 200 car occupants. Just because something looks dangerous does not mean it is.

Eh...

How many cyclists are there in Dublin? And how many Motorists? Think about those figures proportionately.

Also, weren't the cyclists all killed in the City Centre, whereas motorists tend to die in the country?

Nehpets

stovelid, what exactly is the problem?

subway

Nehpets wrote:

stovelid, what exactly is the problem?

he posted something remotely critical of cycling on a place where a bunch of hyper-pro-cycling nut jobs hang out.

Ruu_Old

stovelid wrote:

and a helmet really helps a child when you are buzzing along a sh*t road, precariosuly balancing a toddler on the cross bar and some moron in a jeep clips you or you hit a pot hole?

Yes actually they really do help rather than have your head split open.

Smellyirishman

Shabadu wrote:

How many cyclists are there in Dublin? And how many Motorists? Think about those figures proportionally.

I wonder though, how many of the cyclist deaths had a vehicle involved. (perhaps none)

Cyclists killed in CC = highest concentration of vehicles.

Motorists killed in Country = They don't need anyone else around to kill themselves, traffic too slow in CC to cause fatalities!


Perhaps I am way off, just discussing.

Nehpets wrote:

stovelid, what exactly is the problem?

He thinks it is dangerous for parents to carry their children on their bike.

subway wrote:

remotely critical of cycling on a place where a bunch of hyper-pro-cycling nut jobs hang out.

A little OTT don't you think?

I probably am coming accross as some cycling nut, but that is far from the truth. I just don't think cycling with a kid is really all that dangerous (as long as your taking all the precautions etc...).

stovelid

Sorry, the two incidents that I had in kind were a parent cross-barring a kid and those trailer type things that attach to the back of the seat.

Smellyirishman wrote:

Sorry, I didn't think you were talking about a parent "cross-barring" a toddler, I thought they had them in a proper kids seat. That's questionable alright, especially depending on how old exactly the kid is.

Smellyirishman wrote:

Although, if a moron in a jeep hits you, what have you done wrong?

Traumadoc, Many more people drive than cycle...also driving is more faster and more dangerous so Im sure the figures are higher. I was remiss in assuming more cyclists were killed, however, Apologies.

stovelid

I originally lost it cos the initial replies were awash with snide value judgements remarks about tailbacks, SUVs etc. Fine now, the topic has become more reasoned.

Smellyirishman wrote:

A little OTT don't you think?

subway

Smellyirishman wrote:

A little OTT don't you think?

I probably am coming accross as some cycling nut, but that is far from the truth. I just don't think cycling with a kid is really all that dangerous (as long as your taking all the precautions etc...).

nah, your being reasonable,
ive noticed about 30 threads in the past week or so that usually start out with
"bah, some bloody cyclist ......"
which is fine,
there are an equal amount of
"bah, some bloody car driver...."

and that is the balalnce of things in nature.

however in the past week, the replies have changed from a few people having a whine to 4 or 5 cycling saints,
who just reply with pointless comparisons and statistics,
basically taaking any of the fun out of posting something.

tbh, we all need a good whinge,
i know im a pric on the road from time to time,
but when someone gets my goat i dont think about my past actions,
i just scream "Pr*CK!!!!!" as loud as i can.

theres too much smugness on boards these days from some mad cyclists.

Traumadoc

Shabadu wrote:

Eh...

How many cyclists are there in Dublin? And how many Motorists? Think about those figures proportionally.

Also, weren't the cyclists all killed in the City Centre, whereas motorists tend to die in the country?

I agree with you when you say to think of the figures proportionatly- but I have yet to hear of a chlid injured or killed while on a parents bicycle.
No most cyclists are not killed in the city center.
one cyclist was killed on the belgard ( Run over by a Roadstone truck- very gruesome) one was killed near mullingar, cycling in the early hours, one was killed by a truck in the city center (stoney batter), The last one again crushed by a truck near the north wall.

It is true that most motorists are killed in the country.

dalk

I and any of the people i know who cycle around Dublin, do not think that it is especially dangerous. If i did i wouldn't cycle.

It is usually non-cyclists and/or people who have never cycled around Dublin that think it is really dangerous. It is an opinion that is greatly exaggerated.

So i have no problem with people carrying children on bikes. But they need to be seated in proper children carrying gear...

stovelid

dude, i'm almost sure that a girl was killed in recent times near the traffic island between d'olier street and o connell street. I seem to remember this, will google to be sure.

Traumadoc wrote:

No most cyclists are not killed in the city center.

stovelid

sorry westmoreland street..

http://www.irishtrucker.com/news/2001/october/2610014.asp

InFront

I cycle most places except into town (Luas), personally I like it as a way of getting around and have no problem with drivers in general as I myself drive from time to time.

But as far as bringing kids on bikes or in those little trailer things - I don't agree with it. It's alright if you're travelling down a quiet cul de sac where the chances of having a fatal accident are, to say the least slim. But other than that, just walk. Biking it on the road is not a safe method of transport for a three year old. There are cars passing dangerously close to you, and frequently no bicycle lanes. Even where bicycle lanes exist some drivers dont respect them. Kids have no safety belts and no surrounding 'cab' protection.

Furthermore I have a similiar problem with mothers who bring babies on buses. Often there will be mothers with kids who are a year old and less and cannot really sit by themselves in their own safety belt, and sit in their mothers arms for the duration of the journey. Im mostly talking about reginal, inter-city buses as these are the most dangerous due to their ability to gather speed on motorways and national roads. Do the bus companies hve no restrictions against babies trvelling in this manner?

dalk

Wasn't there another cyclist killed on one of the roads off Capel St not so long ago... Another articulated truck if i remember correctly?

Shabadu

Traumadoc wrote:

I agree with you when you say to think of the figures proportionatly- but I have yet to hear of a chlid injured or killed while on a parents bicycle.
No most cyclists are not killed in the city center.
one cyclist was killed on the belgard ( Run over by a Roadstone truck- very gruesome) one was killed near mullingar, cycling in the early hours, one was killed by a truck in the city center (stoney batter), The last one again crushed by a truck near the north wall.

It is true that most motorists are killed in the country.

Jaypurs, I stand corrected wrt cyclists deaths. I suppose, the other side of the coin about cycling on a congested Dublin road is that traffic will most likely be moving so slowly you won't get squished.

stovelid

goggle "cyclist killed city centre" and one or two come up.

dalk wrote:

Wasn't there another cyclist killed on one of the roads off Capel St not so long ago... Another articulated truck if i remember correctly?

stovelid

Actually that's something I hadnt considered. However, I would guess that some vehicles are big enough to kill even at low speed.

Shabadu wrote:

Jaypurs, I stand corrected wrt cyclists deaths. I suppose, the other side of the coin about cycling on a congested Dublin road is that traffic will most likely be moving so slowly you won't get squished.

Smellyirishman

He said *most* cyclists are no killed in the CC, that was 1 girl back in 2001...

As you can see, almost all cyclist deaths involve vehicles (and more often than not artic-trucks because they have a very big blind spot for cyclists, if your reading this, DON'T CYCLE UP THE SIDE OF TRUCKS!). With a parent and child combination, I think both the parent and drivers are more aware and do not take silly risks like those that lead to "normal" cyclist deaths.

In conclusion, if the parent has proper carrying equipment, helmets and is cautious then I think it's a great idea. However, bombing down the road with your kid on the handle bars precariously clamped between your elbows is not the way to go...

dalk

stovelid wrote:

Actually that's something I hadnt considered. However, I would guess that some vehicles are big enough to kill even at low speed.

A lot of the people who were killed by articulated trucks were cycling down the inside of the truck as it took a left turn. The trailer starts to move in towards the cyclist and then there is a tragedy... There doesnt need to be much speed and the driver wouldn't even notice.

stovelid

And a tranquilizer to keep the little f*cker still in the seat

Smellyirishman wrote:

In conclusion, if the parent has proper carrying equipment, helmets and is cautious then I think it's a great idea. However, bombing down the road with your kid on the handle bars precariously clamped between your elbows is not the way to go...

Traumadoc

The poor fellow that was killed on the belgard road was in a cycle lane about to go on straight , the roadstone truck pulled up beside him, and got the filter light to turn left. as he turned, the cylcist was caught in the wheels.
Road design was as much to blame as the cylist or the trucker.

http://www.roaddeaths.net/map.php

r3nu4l

I think we all know that Dublin is not a cycling friendly city. I live in Cambridge where the bike is definitely equal to the car, you have more of a chance of being knocked down by a bike than a car! To paraphrase a famous film..."Bicycles! Thousands of them!"

The streeets in Cambridge are narrower than in Dublin and not everywhere has cycle lanes yet these two-wheeled, attach-to-back-of-bike child carriers are quite numerous and accidents very few. This is primarily because drivers in Cambridge are very aware of cyclists and respect that cyclists also have an equal place on the road.

Now there are some idiots on bikes but there are idiots in cars too so it all even out, sort of

My point is that driver awareness is vital, I would gladly cycle in Cambridge with my kids in one of these things but wouldn't even consider it in Dublin or any other major Irish town or city.

Are they safe? Only where cyclists are so numerous that drivers can't be but aware of them. I have to point out that I own neither a bike or a car in Cambridge but have both back home in Ireland so I am neutral.

biko

subway wrote:

he posted something remotely critical of cycling on a place where a bunch of hyper-pro-cycling nut jobs hang out.

You really haven't a clue do you?

or much worse, those trendy trailer things that attach to the back of the bike)and cycling on the road. I'm tempted to think they are just morons prioritizing an eviromental position over the safety of their child.

These carriers are safer than holding the child on your handlebars or in a child seat, provided no-one hits you from behind. If your bike falls over for some reason the carriage can stay upright whereas a fixed childseat may hit the ground very hard. They're great for shopping too. I haven't one myself but if I had a child I'd get one for sure.

subway

biko wrote:

You really haven't a clue do you?

i dont know if i have a clue or not,
you havent stated what im supposed to have a clue about.

stovelid

Not having a go Biko, but being "hit from behind" was the scenario I was discussing, not the desirability or usefulness of the trailer.

biko wrote:

These carriers are safer than holding the child on your handlebars or in a child seat, provided no-one hits you from behind.

subway

i think overall its probably safer to have 1 of the little trailer things,
for the reason biko mentioned.
bike flips / falls with a kid perched high in the air.
remember the jackass scene were the kid was on the carrier over the bike wheel and the bike flips forward

in traffic tho, i thinks it wiser to keep everything close together,
same principle as a truck turning and having less control of its trailer.

if you have to carry a kid on a bike around town,
put them on the cross bars so you can protect them to an extent,
but if you have the luxury of cycle lanes, like the sutton to clontarf strect by all means, use the trailer.

biko

stovelid wrote:

Not having a go Biko, but being "hit from behind" was the scenario I was discussing, not the desirability or usefulness of the trailer.

I understand that, and also that you seen these in busy city traffic where it's bumper to bumper.

However it's a great idea if you're either on a quieter road/street than dead centre in Dublin (which would be 99.99etc% of Ireland) and as cars stay away from these carriers, knowing there is a child inside.

At least I have never heard about anyone hitting one of these things - maybe Traumadoc knows more?

Traumadoc

Cant say I have but they are pretty rare- mostly dutch people it seems ?
Saw a few kids on crossbars putting feet into the front wheel spokes.

blorg

Cycling is not as dangerous as people think and it is pretty universally agreed that the health benefits outweigh the risk. I would second the idea that parents with child carriers are also probably more responsible than the average cyclist. Instead of expressing frustration about parents with kids on bikes, why don't you express your frustration against the irresponsible percentage of motorists who are the only reason the activity is in any way dangerous in the first place?

Feral Mutant

IMO it would only be dangerous if childhood obesity gets out of hand.
(flip):D

Caco

I neither cycle nor drive; but in my opinion, it's the well being and safety factors that would make me never put a child in one of these.

The environmental and handiness factors wouldnt come into it, I would always put my child's safety first and foremost (if I had one).

I live in Dublin and am probably biased- seeing the way the traffic moves at times and knowing the twats and boy/girl racers that can be on the road at any time, it just puts the sh*ts up me thinkin of a toddler (or younger) being in a small, easy crushable, wendy tent with wheels!!!

Traumadoc

They may seem more dangerous but there may be advantages- more stable due to the lower center of gravity for example. a shorter height to fall if knocked over. although they may appear more dangerous they may not be.

As there havent been alot of fatalities with these or with child seats on bikes it would be difficult to say.

That said i wouldnt use one but would use a child seat on a bike.
I had one in Australia and would not go on the public road with a child on the bike- the roads were wide and the traffic including articulated trucks travelled too fast.
In dublin city the traffic is slow so you can anticipate danger more easily. ironically the traffic situation in Dublin city makes the roads safer.