Discussion on teaching job prospects in Ireland.

kittex

I am sure this has been discussed before, but there's no harm in re-awaken the debate (I hope).

Why are there so few teaching jobs in Ireland?
Are teachers finding a reliable stream of supply/substitute work? Or have they had to look elsewhere or in another profession?
Is it fair that non-qualified people can teach in Ireland when there are qualified people without work?

I'm an ex-lecturer, now trained as a Secondary teacher in the UK. By the end of this school year, I will have completed my full registration in English.
I can also teach Media, EAL, RE and PSE (Sex Ed/Health/Civics type subject).

Ideally, I would like to return to Ireland in the long-term but there are no jobs. I have been told I would have trouble finding supply unless I knew someone in a school.

I have no strong ideas or opinions on the matter, but would like to hear the various opinions about the situation and whether this will remain the case or if there will be more jobs in the coming years.

RealJohn

kittex wrote:

Is it fair that non-qualified people can teach in Ireland when there are qualified people without work?

As far as I know, an unqualified person can't be given a permenant position (anymore) and if a position is filled by an unqualified person, it must be advertised every year until it is filled by a qualified person (or the unqualified person qualifies). Also, technically, an unqualified person cannot be given a job over a qualified person without very good reason.

Can't help much on how it is to get subbing hours and whatnot because I was lucky enough to get a full-time position straight out of college and I have it for next year too.

What I would say is if your spoken Irish is reasonable, do the Ceard Teastas to qualify to teach through Irish. It would mean that someone without it (or the other qualification I can't remember off the top of my head) cannot be hired to teach in an all-Irish school ahead of someone who has it (again, without good reason). If your level of Irish is poor though (or if you're dead set against teaching through Irish), don't bother. You might still pass it with poor Irish but you likely wouldn't manage the extra workload involved in teaching through Irish (though if you're primarily teaching english, it might not matter as much).

katyk

Im going to the UK this year to study a PGCE in Secondary education in ICT. Im a bit confused because the teachers council have ICT or IT as an approved subject on the curriculum and that is what I would like to teach when I come back to Ireland.However, this subject isnt on the curriculum on the Dept of Ed website. Also, I dont know of any schools that actually teach ICT.
Am I leaving myself unemployable over here by doing my PGCE in ICT and not another subject like Business. I have applied for my degree to be recognised by the teaching council to teach ICT and Business but it will be weeks before I hear back from them. Im really worried that if they say my degree doesnt make me eligible to teach Business and there are no schools teaching ICT over here, that I will end up being without a job. Please anyone with any advice or who knows the current and proposed structure of ICT in the Irish education system, I would really appreciate your opinion on this.

kittex

RealJohn wrote:

As far as I know, an unqualified person can't be given a permenant position (anymore) and if a position is filled by an unqualified person, it must be advertised every year until it is filled by a qualified person (or the unqualified person qualifies). Also, technically, an unqualified person cannot be given a job over a qualified person without very good reason.

Apologies, I meant to clarify - you can sub unqualified. So then, is this fair to those qualified who would like to sub? From what I've heard, those unqualified teachers who are friends with the principal etc get preference over other applicants. Really, I'm just wondering if this is true as it would be most unfair on both pupils and teachers wanting to come home.

RealJohn wrote:

I was lucky enough to get a full-time position straight out of college and I have it for next year too.

Good for you.

RealJohn wrote:

What I would say is if your spoken Irish is reasonable, do the Ceard Teastas to qualify to teach through Irish.

I have no idea how my Irish is to be honest, as I haven't used it for years. But it is something worth thinking of. Thank you.

Katyk, I'm afraid I can't answer that one. Is there any way you can get another subject added to your PGDE? Where are you studying?

RealJohn

katyk, what exactly is your degree in?
Assuming it is business and IT (or something to that effect), I would imagine that any teaching qualification you get would qualify you to teach both subjects here. I'm not sure how a british qualification translates though. Can't say for sure but I'd be pretty confident you'd be qualifed to teach both.

If you're not though, don't waste your time qualifying to be an ICT teacher if you are intent on returning to Ireland to work. There might be jobs in the future but right now, I'm pretty sure there are next to no jobs for someone who only teaches ICT. You'd be looking at years of subbing and part-time stuff.

MG

It seems to me that you need to know someone in the school or be big into GAA. Otherwise, it's a question of being in the right place at the right time.

I know someone, a German, who has a degree in teaching their native language as a foreign language and has a first class H dip (obviously done through English) and can't find a job.

spurious

This may be the case in voluntary secondary schools, I don't know.

In State owned VEC schools there is a panel of people for substitution work, though with many permanent and contract teachers having signed up to the substitution and supervision deal the number of available hours is limited.

Language teachers are ten a penny unfortunately. The shortages are in some practical subjects - Home Economics and Woodwork teachers are always in demand.

katyk

My degree is in Management Info Systems, which was a combination of IT and Business. From what I can gather it covered around 60-70% IT and the rest Business.Have just found out that Im approved to teach IT but not Business, although the teachers council doc sets out that to teach Business my degree must be a minimum of 30% of the subject, which it is. Im so annoyed:mad: Its a joke, I have been working in Business for years, I have a degree with a good amount of business in it, and they have rejected my application to teach business. Im going to have to try and appeal it now, if there is an appeals process, cant find aything about it on their website. Looks like theres not much chance of a job for me when I get back to Ireland so. All I can hope is that things have changed by the time I get back and IT is taught in every school and they are crying out for IT teachers.. (Yeah right!)

kittex

Katyk, why can't you do your PGDE in Business and IT? Most PGDE courses link these two subjects.

Are you planning on staying in the UK after you qualify? There are lots of jobs here at the moment. If you stayed for a couple of years, you could look into having Business added as an ATQ.

katyk

Hi Kittex. I was told by the teachers council over here that it makes no difference what I do my PGCE in, because when I get back to Ireland, I will only be allowed to teach whatever my degree was in. So even if I could do my PGCE in Business aswell, they wouldnt take that into account over here. What I hope to do is do my PGCE in IT, and then spend another year in the UK teaching in order to get my qualified status for the UK. During that year, I will try and get some experience teaching Business aswell and hopefully I could reapply to the council when I get back (another €150!!)

BTW - what does ATQ mean??

Thanks!

kittex

Sorry Katyk, ATQ means Additional Teaching Qualification. Once you are qualified and have obtained the standard for full registration, you can apply to have your knowledge of other subjects recognised as being enough to teach. You have to apply for it, demonstrate that you know the curriculum etc, then do a probation period in the subject. Sometimes they require further study, maybe a module at a local teacher training uni, sometimes they just allow it.
The rules differ in England and Scotland (where I am) so I'd call the GTCE and find out about it. Or ask a course tutor. You could maybe sit in on some business classes, get a head start.

That seems strange about the degree. When I spoke to the Department of Education they said it was my teaching qualification that would need to be approved, not my degree. Actually perhaps not so strange - we've mentioned on here many times the advice differs each time we call!

RealJohn

katyk wrote:

All I can hope is that things have changed by the time I get back and IT is taught in every school and they are crying out for IT teachers.. (Yeah right!)

They do teach it in every school (more or less) but the problem is it's not considered an important subject as it isn't an exam subject and kids are becoming so computer literate these days anyway.
IT teachers, in my experience, tend to be teachers of other subject who know a bit about computers. I'm certain if the IT teacher in the school I'm in at the moment quit before September and nobody with a specific computer qualification replaced her, I would be told that I'm teaching IT just because the principal knows I know my way around a computer (I have no computer qualifications of any kind).

TheDriver

Theres little jobs out there is the bottom line and beware of subbing, lots this week and none the next and principals have to cut the line somewhere. Pull is fairly gone TBH. WIth regards teaching council, u will have to register your proper subjects but schools will mosatly let you teach what they want ant what your willing to do! Good Luck to be honest, its a tough profession to get into.

budthedub

I can honestly say I am very disheartened by the whole teaching process. 5 years in college so far, degree and dip under my belt, over 60 CVs sent out in Dublin and not one reply. I'm going to have to find a job to tie me over for the year, it is a disgrace. Music is my main subject, with history and cspe. I did my dip in UL this year and I don't know why they are accepting people into the dip when they know there are very few jobs, especially in Music.

I don't know why I bothered even doing my dip, I shouldn've just went straight into my masters. I really want to teach and there's no job for me, makes no sense

Trotter

budthedub wrote:

I can honestly say I am very disheartened by the whole teaching process. 5 years in college so far, degree and dip under my belt, over 60 CVs sent out in Dublin and not one reply. I'm going to have to find a job to tie me over for the year, it is a disgrace. Music is my main subject, with history and cspe. I did my dip in UL this year and I don't know why they are accepting people into the dip when they know there are very few jobs, especially in Music.

I don't know why I bothered even doing my dip, I shouldn've just went straight into my masters. I really want to teach and there's no job for me, makes no sense

I really think that getting a teaching position in Ireland is as much about networking as it is about qualifications. Try to get a day or two subbing in as many schools as possible and let things happen from there. Its taking the average person 4 or 5 years to get fulltime permanent work now. Stick at it.. you'll get there.

budthedub

Just back on boards after a long time! Reading over this thread, happy to say, after that post, I did get a teaching job, teaching 2 years now, was in dublin and the west. Now back again, handing out cv's. Trotter, you are so right, getting a job, I've experienced, is more about WHO you know! Not all the time, but most!!

gaeilgegrinds

SO about who you know in this country! GAA helps too, Irish always a plus. That seems to be about it!

Toto Wolfcastle

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

SO about who you know in this country! GAA helps too, Irish always a plus. That seems to be about it!

Meh a guy I know who plays GAA, has fluent Irish and knows loads of principals hasn't been offered one interview since he started handing out CVs a few months ago. I doesn't always work out that way.

gaeilgegrinds

Obviously depends on where you teach too, some areas of Ireland more GAA mad than others!

Nead21

well ive been teaching a year, have degree, masters and hdip, and loads of experience in jobs outside the teaching profession. i still have no job for sept and am freaking out slightly considering the schools are back next week!!

Just had a terrible interview for a job yesterday....and dont actually think i was terrible, but the interviewers seemed to ask very "small" questions, and often made very irrelevant comments on my answers.

i have loads of experience doing interviews, and my last principal said i gave a perfect interview for him!!!

im pretty much at a loss as to what im going to do now......very disheartened with the whole thing tbh

sorry.....rant over!

Tom Dunne

If it's any consolation, it's not much different at third level. No problem picking up a few hours here, a few hours there, but forget about anything remotely approaching permanent. I hate that term "pro-rata".

I've actually given up on my dream job of full-time lecturing, I've resigned myself to the 9-5 daily drudge as I simply can't deal with the uncertainty of "will I/won't I have a job come September?" and temporary positions.

freire

Nead21 wrote: »

Just had a terrible interview for a job yesterday....and dont actually think i was terrible, but the interviewers seemed to ask very "small" questions, and often made very irrelevant comments on my answers.

im pretty much at a loss as to what im going to do now......very disheartened with the whole thing tbh

sorry.....rant over!

Well if twas only yesterday - and if my own experience is anything to go by - you shouldn't write that particular job off. Isn't it often when we think we've done terribly that it turns out the complete opposite? Those on the panel had some 'strategy' or other up their collective sleeve no doubt, and ours is not to reason why etc. I'd say you're in with a shout there.

And if not don't despair! For my money there are plenty of opportunities out there if you're flexible and all that.

Good luck!

Rosita

I think a reality check is needed in relation to teaching prospects.

From what I see here many pursue degrees which, while technically accepted by the Teaching Council, render them virtually unemployable as a secondary teachers in reality as many are qualified to teach only minority subjects.

Quite frankly, if you have to have a debate with the Teaching Council regarding the eligibility of your degree in the first place, then it is likely that it is not a mainstream teaching qualification and this will be reflected in job prospects.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

I think a reality check is needed in relation to teaching prospects.

From what I see here many pursue degrees which, while technically accepted by the Teaching Council, render them virtually unemployable as a secondary teachers in reality as many are qualified to teach only minority subjects.

Quite frankly, if you have to have a debate with the Teaching Council regarding the eligibility of your degree in the first place, then it is likely that it is not a mainstream teaching qualification and this will be reflected in job prospects.

I don't think a lot of those people set out with the aim of becoming teachers in the first place though... so having good teaching subjects was not a priority at the time of choosing the degree.

But to illlustrate your point, a friend of mine has a degree in electronic engineering and qualified in 2001 when the IT industry collapsed. So she decided to go teaching and did the PGCE in England, she is qualified according to the teaching council to teach Applied Maths and IT which are both A level subjects in the UK, but over here she is finding it much harder as Applied Maths is a minority subject and IT is non-exam, she does get a lot of work subbing maths and physics which she is more than capable of teaching but not officially.

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't think a lot of those people set out with the aim of becoming teachers in the first place though... so having good teaching subjects was not a priority at the time of choosing the degree.

But that's precisely the problem isn't it? The point I am making is that your teaching prospects will, logically, be decided by the demand for your subjects. Many face the problem that they are not qualified to teach high demand subjects - how they arrived in that situation is neither here nor there. They just need to be realistic about their prospects.

freire

Rosita wrote: »

But that's precisely the problem isn't it? The point I am making is that your teaching prospects will, logically, be decided by the demand for your subjects. Many face the problem that they are not qualified to teach high demand subjects - how they arrived in that situation is neither here nor there. They just need to be realistic about their prospects.

Fair point, though on the other hand there were very high numbers in my Dip year doing English and History, so that combo, it would seem to me, is possibly too well catered for and the competition for those jobs should be fierce. It seemed to me that at least 25-30% of student teachers were doing English as one or other of their subjects. Yes it's a core subject for all years but there are a lot of them out there.
As a counter-point, there were practically no Classics people and while this is quite an unusual subject perhaps it may pay to be that 'rare beast'.
But on the whole I would have to agree with Rosita - subject choice has a huge and direct bearing on your future employability, one way or another, so potential teachers should really assess this angle before undergoing the financial and mental stress involved in the PGDE!

Cabbage Patch

Many of you speak about the demand for subjects.
In which subjects is the demand for teachers high at the moment?
Which subjects would you recommend to steer clear of?
Im considering a hip dip at the moment but need advice on picking my subjects to make me employable in next years market.
Thanks!

sunflower!

you can only do subjects you did to degree level!! and they have to have made up more than 33.3% of your whole degree!

spurious

Cabbage Patch wrote: »

Many of you speak about the demand for subjects.
In which subjects is the demand for teachers high at the moment?
Which subjects would you recommend to steer clear of?
Im considering a hip dip at the moment but need advice on picking my subjects to make me employable in next years market.
Thanks!

Woodwork/Metalwork (Materials Technology) are always bankers and Home Economics teachers can more or less choose where in the country they want to work.

I wouldn't necessarily steer clear of any subjects, but please don't think teachers can walk into jobs, regardless of subjects. It is frightening to see people giving up established careers in another field to retrain and take a chance on getting a teaching job - it's a big risk.

kittex

Rosita wrote: »

I think a reality check is needed in relation to teaching prospects.

From what I see here many pursue degrees which, while technically accepted by the Teaching Council, render them virtually unemployable as a secondary teachers in reality as many are qualified to teach only minority subjects.

Quite frankly, if you have to have a debate with the Teaching Council regarding the eligibility of your degree in the first place, then it is likely that it is not a mainstream teaching qualification and this will be reflected in job prospects.

Ha ha, ridiculously untrue. What a 'new Ireland arrogance' comment your last one is. The Teaching Council have been querying a whole host of degrees for various reasons, and almost seem to have a policy of rejecting foreign degrees out of hand, unless they're on their (small) pre-approved list. It's then up to the teacher (who left Ireland due to the shortage of uni places, as generations have done for eons) to fight their corner. Then they relent. A sad, silly, financially wasteful dance.

Although I do agree with your point that many people pick minority subjects, it is not the sole reason for TC battles.

Rosita

kittex wrote: »

Ha ha, ridiculously untrue. What a 'new Ireland arrogance' comment your last one is. The Teaching Council have been querying a whole host of degrees for various reasons, and almost seem to have a policy of rejecting foreign degrees out of hand, unless they're on their (small) pre-approved list. It's then up to the teacher (who left Ireland due to the shortage of uni places, as generations have done for eons) to fight their corner. Then they relent. A sad, silly, financially wasteful dance.

Although I do agree with your point that many people pick minority subjects, it is not the sole reason for TC battles.

I never said anything about anything being the 'sole reason' reason for TC battles.

I made the reference to that simply because I have seen people here with stuff like politics and sociology studied as part of their general degree debating how much of their study has involved the subject and I find it hard to believe that registering with the Teaching Council will make a whit of difference to their prospects in reality.

But "Ha ha ridiculously untrue"...."new Ireland arrogance":rolleyes:.....would "I diagree with you" (even if you do apparently agree with my central point) not have done the trick just as well?

wingnut

katyk wrote: »

Am I leaving myself unemployable over here by doing my PGCE in ICT and not another subject like Business.

Where are you thinking of doing it? I did my PGCE in ICT in the UK two years ago and got a full a time teaching job on arrival back to Ireland so it can be done. Only problem is you have relatively few schools in the position to offer such jobs. The LCA component in ICT is the only element of the LC where ICT is examined but some schools offer other qualifications.

Even though the PGCE I completed was ICT it still fully qualifies me to teach my degree subjects, including history etc.

OZQLD

Hi all,
What an informative site. I have a few questions that I hope people may be kind enough to help me with.

Iam hoping to work in Teach in elementry/primary schools in Ireland for the 2nd 6 months of 2009. I don't mind substitute teaching but reading all the posts it seems it s really difficult to find work in teaching at present.

Should I stay in the Dublin area (or major centres) or is it easier to find this temp/short term work in rural areas?

Do you go through an employemnt agency or apply directly to the schools for supply work?

I supply taught in London for a year in the 90s and don't particularily want to teach there again - nice place to visit but would love to work in ireland...I have just finished teaching for 10 years in remote Indigenous communities here in Oz - absolutely brilliant.

Any help would be much appreciated:)

TheDriver

Since the budget, subbing work will dry up a lot from Jan 2009 so be careful!! Also go directly to the schools, CVs in everywhere and you should be registered with the teaching council I think

rainbowtrout

OZQLD wrote: »

Hi all,
What an informative site. I have a few questions that I hope people may be kind enough to help me with.

Iam hoping to work in Teach in elementry/primary schools in Ireland for the 2nd 6 months of 2009. I don't mind substitute teaching but reading all the posts it seems it s really difficult to find work in teaching at present.

Should I stay in the Dublin area (or major centres) or is it easier to find this temp/short term work in rural areas?

Do you go through an employemnt agency or apply directly to the schools for supply work?

I supply taught in London for a year in the 90s and don't particularily want to teach there again - nice place to visit but would love to work in ireland...I have just finished teaching for 10 years in remote Indigenous communities here in Oz - absolutely brilliant.

Any help would be much appreciated:)

I'm guessing you're Australian. You might get short term subbing here and there but the Irish language is taught in primary schools here so you might find it difficult to get any more than a few days at a time if you can't teach the language. Primary teachers feel free to correct me.

Carol-anne

Hi ..
I have a BA (hons) in English and Psychology from University of Limerick.(via DCU). I am currently in the process of completing a Masters in English Literature, (from OU) and hope to finish in a few months time.

I am interested in getting into teaching English, be it at second or third level. Do I need a Hdip for secondary...as I would rather proceed to PhD than undertake Hdip at this point, but would welcome the opportunity to at least sub teach at second level to gain experience. Would I be considered for such posts? Any other advice as to how I could get into teaching English would be appreciated.......

Regards, Carol-anne

Powerhouse

Carol-anne wrote: »

Hi ..
I have a BA (hons) in English and Psychology from University of Limerick.(via DCU). I am currently in the process of completing a Masters in English Literature, (from OU) and hope to finish in a few months time.

I am interested in getting into teaching English, be it at second or third level. Do I need a Hdip for secondary...as I would rather proceed to PhD than undertake Hdip at this point, but would welcome the opportunity to at least sub teach at second level to gain experience. Would I be considered for such posts? Any other advice as to how I could get into teaching English would be appreciated.......

Regards, Carol-anne

Short answer to the question of if you need the H Dip for secondary is emphatically "yes", if you intend to possibly make a career of it.

However, in terms of potential subbing, in many cases schools will not have the luxury of being able to get their hands on a fully qualified teacher and more prosaic considerations such as the probability of someone being able to show up at short notice if needed takes precedence. So you would have some prospects in that situation if you could align yourself to a school or two that you could genuinely attend consistently if needed.

However, you might have serious employability problems with your subject long-term if secondary teaching is what interests you are there are so many English graduates. And it should be pointed out right now that a PhD does not change that reality. I occasionally see people here who cannot get jobs cite as part of their frustration that they have a PhD but unfortunately for them, a very deep bank of research in a very narrow area of expertise is of little practical benefit at second-level where most things are just skimmed over. It's an utterly redundant qualification for a second-level teacher.

I'm not saying that you would be doing the PhD to improve employment prospects at second-level or anything, just that in time to come it you should not consider that it confers any advantage on you in terms of employment. The actual subjects a teachers can teach is far more important than the depth of their qualifications.

spurious

You could start by getting in some hours volunteering with a literacy project.

maherball

Hey I have applied for the Post Grad Diploma in Education, I have a 2.1 Hons degree from NUIM in Chemistry, and have studied Exp Physics and Mathematics. I was wondering if there are many jobs out there for science teachers?

leann

Hi

I also have a science (chem and bio) from NUIM. I am currently doin the dip in trinity. After I finished my BSc, I worked in a school as a sub. This gave me some experience so I got onto the dip. With any luck, they will keep me on next year.

I have been keeping an eye on the newspapers and educationposts.ie for the past two years and there are very few adds for science teachers. I would imagine a principal gets a pile of CVS for every science post.

Anyway, I think everyone who is properly qualified will get a job eventually. If not, I have some friends who went to London and they had principals fighting for their services.

Good luck!

johnwstafford

katyk wrote: »

Im going to the UK this year to study a PGCE in Secondary education in ICT. Im a bit confused because the teachers council have ICT or IT as an approved subject on the curriculum and that is what I would like to teach when I come back to Ireland.However, this subject isnt on the curriculum on the Dept of Ed website. Also, I dont know of any schools that actually teach ICT.
Am I leaving myself unemployable over here by doing my PGCE in ICT and not another subject like Business. I have applied for my degree to be recognised by the teaching council to teach ICT and Business but it will be weeks before I hear back from them. Im really worried that if they say my degree doesnt make me eligible to teach Business and there are no schools teaching ICT over here, that I will end up being without a job. Please anyone with any advice or who knows the current and proposed structure of ICT in the Irish education system, I would really appreciate your opinion on this.

Hi Katyk,

I am in the exact situation which you were in 6 years ago. Just qualified as a ICT teacher and there's nothing in Ireland at al. I would be very interested to know how things fared out with you in the end?

Regards,
John