ladies of the night

jimbling

240 player $100 MTT on Stars. Down to the final 8.

Biggest stack is 115K.
Smalles stack is 20K.
Average 55k.
I have 45k.
Blinds 1k/2k, about 7min to next blinds of 1.5/3k
8th spot gets $700
1st gets 6.5k


Villian is tight aggressive and a decent player.
I get dealt QQ on the button. Its folded around to me.
I put in standard raise up to 6k
SB Folds. BB raises to 12k.

Whats your move?

shoutman

What stack does BB have?

jimbling

shoutman wrote:

What stack does BB have?

apologies.. thought it was there
he has me covered... but only by about 2k.

shoutman

So basically you have the same amount of chips.
Any ideas what kind of a player he would see you as being?

Could this be him playing back at you thinking you are on a steal, have you been stealing his blind much?

anthony112

i think u should push here

jimbling

shoutman wrote:

So basically you have the same amount of chips.
Any ideas what kind of a player he would see you as being?

Could this be him playing back at you thinking you are on a steal, have you been stealing his blind much?

okay.. .my image. I've been playing pretty aggressively since the final table. (came to the table with only 13k). I have pushed about 4 times. Once when it was his sb and three times to a mp raise. Was called once and showed KK.

shoutman

So you haven't really been picking on the BB, so he could still just be playing back at you thinking you are after the blinds.

I think its very possible that the villain has Ak/AQ here, but if he is tight/aggressive as you say he likewise could have KK AA

I think NL hold em is a game best played when you make your opponent make a decision about risking all his chips, so maybe if you reraise him another 13, i think this might show him that you are willing to put your money in with your hand but with 20k left behind you still have a chance to get away from the hand if you feel you are behind.

If he push's to your re-raise im folding. If he just calls and no A or K come on the flop, then I push. (I dont know why he would just flat call the reraise if he had kk or AA)

(I myself am looking to improve my very poor cash game, so please feel free to tear my reasoning apart)

regards
Luke

Sangre

I think you need to push if you want to go onto win this. What is the payout structure like?

NickyOD

BB min raise is pretty scary. With no note on this moron I think I'd have to call and evaluate on the flop but under "normal" circumstances I'd consider QQ too big a hand to fold at this point.

staringelf

quite surprised at some of the replys here...i think its a fairly easy push. you have less than the average stack. if he has KK or AA you got unlucky. i see the BB min rasing here a lot to represent some kind of monster, take some control of the hand fairly cheaply and try and take it off you on the flop. he would also make this raise with AK, AQ, JJ, TT and many other hands depending on what type of player he is.

i don't like calling and letting him see a flop and this is why:

it lets him get away from any pp lower than QQ when overcards hit
he's probably willing to call your push with any pair 99 and up and AK, AQ and maybe AJ, all of which you are a favourite over. in this spot you want to double up and become a real threat and bully your way to first if possible.

flat calling is weak for me. and anyway, if an A or K hits the flop he's going to cont bet anyway in all likelihood and THEN what do you do? hard to risk even more chips raising to find out where you are. calling is awful at that stage. and you might well have the best hand anyway. the more i think about this its an easy push. if your stack was much bigger flat calling would be an ok option but not here.

phantom_lord

I would have thought this would be an easy push.

cardshark202

pushy push push

NickyOD

cardshark202 wrote:

pushy push push

What range of hands do you think anyone min re-raises out of the BB with? I see AA/KK do this way too often.

jimbling

staringelf wrote:

if he has KK or AA you got unlucky.

I think people use this excuse far too regularly.

would you not be worried about the min re-raise for 1/4 of his stack?
I mean, really, what % of the time is this going to be someone "representing" a monster and what % will it be someone with a monster?

Goodluck2me

jimbling wrote:

I think people use this excuse far too regularly.

would you not be worried about the min re-raise for 1/4 of his stack?
I mean, really, what % of the time is this going to be someone "representing" a monster and what % will it be someone with a monster?

they dont have to represent a big hand they can often be looking for information the kind of "is he serious/stealing bet" iv seen this a lot. im not saying its the correct play im just saying iv seen it a lot.

staringelf

jimbling wrote:

I think people use this excuse far too regularly.

would you not be worried about the min re-raise for 1/4 of his stack?
I mean, really, what % of the time is this going to be someone "representing" a monster and what % will it be someone with a monster?

its not an excuse. if you fold it is VERY weak. you have to accept that you're going to run into AA or KK when you hold QQ every now and then. its not like this is deep stacked poker where these kind of lay downs become easier. in a situation like this, with less than the average stack i don't see how you get away from this.

there are far more variables than the 2 you outlined above - ie. some one with a monster or someone representing one. i just used the represnting one as an example. what about a loose player who is re-raising with 77. you don't even have to be that loose to do this. AQ? i'd re-raise here too. maybe he doesn't want to commit much of his stack with a big re-raise - it looks kind of weak in that sense. all i'm saying is that pushing is clearly correct here. for the odd time he actually does have AA or KK its +EV in the long run to push this every time.

as i said if the stacks were deeper, pushing becomes more and more marginal/wrong. as it is there's no contest as to the correct play.

jimbling

goodluck2me wrote:

they dont have to represent a big hand they can often be looking for information the kind of "is he serious/stealing bet" iv seen this a lot. im not saying its the correct play im just saying iv seen it a lot.

who looks for information with 1/4 of his stack? this is an information bet very rarely. take your point though.

Goodluck2me

jimbling wrote:

who looks for information with 1/4 of his stack? this is an information bet very rarely. take your point though.

yeah i dont think its particulary good play, but ppl can raise with anything there and you get someone making half and stand with the "almighty" min raise for 1/4 of your stack it look smore serious too thus adding to the effect.

staringelf

goodluck2me wrote:

yeah i dont think its particulary good play, but ppl can raise with anything there and you get someone making half and stand with the "almighty" min raise for 1/4 of your stack it look smore serious too thus adding to the effect.

its also the best and cheapest way of saying "now that the blinds are gonna start rising fast, don't you be going and trying to steal my BB you little fecker".

Goodluck2me

staringelf wrote:

its also the best and cheapest way of saying "now that the blinds are gonna start rising fast, don't you be going and trying to steal my BB you little fecker".

a more perfect way of describing it, the english language cannot describe! thast basically what im saying in a nutshell....

jimbling

staringelf wrote:

what about a loose player who is re-raising with 77. you don't even have to be that loose to do this. AQ?
i'd re-raise here too. maybe he doesn't want to commit much of his stack with a big re-raise - it looks kind of weak in that sense. all i'm saying is that pushing is clearly correct here. for the odd time he actually does have AA or KK its +EV in the long run to push this every time.

I've already stated the guy was in the tight-aggressive nature, I would never fold this to a loose player.
And no matter how loose you are, I can't see why people would min-raise here with 77/AQ. surely they would push a large % of the time.


anyway.....I generally agree with your surmise, and that is often what I would do.

In fact.. its exactly what I did do
I went out in 8th spot to AA. I thought about this hand for a while afterwards, and I think I made the wrong move and I wanted to see what others thought. I disagree with never folding QQ in this position.

I reckon pushing about 80% of times here is prob right, depending on your gut of what the bb has. In this scenario I had plenty chips to play with (it was below average, but the blinds were still quite reasonable, and the field was not very difficult), and a tight aggressive player just min-re-raised my button raise. perhaps its my lack of experience, but I rarely see crap in this situation.

Obviously not too many agree with me. :eek:

cardshark202

This is a clear push, especially as you have made a button raise which will often get less respect. I don't think there is any doubt in this one.

califano

Like cardshark says, its a clear push. If your not prepared to commit with this hand right here then youre playing scared.I'd be expecting to be up against AK by this min raise that seems to be in vogue this weather and if youre against KK or AA then its just a cold deck. Folding here is a sin.

connie147

A double up would be lovely here and really,you might not come across a better hand.I find the BB often does this min raise to scare off a steal and you have been raising a lot since the final table started.You dont have the average stack,your sitting with the 3rd best starting hand and youve only one opponent to take on,Id push here hoping to take it right here and if I run in to KK or AA,it really is just hard luck.To the BB,it does look like a button steal.

jimbling

rounders123 wrote:

Like cardshark says, its a clear push. If your not prepared to commit with this hand right here then youre playing scared.I'd be expecting to be up against AK by this min raise that seems to be in vogue this weather and if youre against KK or AA then its just a cold deck. Folding here is a sin.

okay.. this is just slander

why would someone be playing scared because they don't want to put all there chips in the middle with QQ.
QQ is not a monster in any situation. And in this I think it was less again. Best case scenario for me here was obviously a middle pair, and this was very unlikely.

2nd best situaion is AJ A10... I still dont think this is in the least likely.

of the likely situations, your either up against AK,AA,KK. I don't like them odds.

jimbling

cardshark202 wrote:

This is a clear push, especially as you have made a button raise which will often get less respect. I don't think there is any doubt in this one.

I really dont understand how there is no doubt. I am putting myself in the big blinds position... what would I ever min-reraise with. If I dont respect the other player then I am betting much more than min. I am making him make a serious decision for his chips. I would be thinking that he will call a min raise with pretty much anything.

jimbling

I am really freaked out by this... do people really min-raise to push people of a steal attempt??
fcuk... im living in the dark ages.

califano

jimbling wrote:

I am really freaked out by this... do people really min-raise to push people of a steal attempt??
fcuk... im living in the dark ages.

Yes!. Recently ive come up against players that are min re-raising with AKo!. Seriously your raise stinks of a steal so the re-raiser thinks he's value betting with AK!. QQ is the absolute nuts in my mind here!.

edit: QQ is in fact a monstor here. If i raised UTG and got min re-raised by this position i would change my stanse.

cardshark202

jimbling wrote:

QQ is not a monster in any situation.

Unfortunately you've just discredited any arguments you have made and/or will make due to this one sentence.

jimbling

cardshark202 wrote:

Unfortunately you've just discredited any arguments you have made and/or will make due to this one sentence.

why?
QQ is only a slight fav against AK, its not too much a fav against A2 either.
I do not mean I dont play with it.. but its not a monster at all if you think the other guy has a good hand.

okay... the "any" was a bit silly.

cardshark202

jimbling wrote:

why?
QQ is only a slight fav against AK, its not too much a fav against A2 either.
I do not mean I dont play with it.. but its not a monster at all if you think the other guy has a good hand.

okay... the "any" was a bit silly.

You can't dig upwards.

jimbling

rounders123 wrote:

Yes!. Recently ive come up against players that are min re-raising with AKo!. Seriously your raise stinks of a steal so the re-raiser thinks he's value betting with AK!. QQ is the absolute nuts in my mind here!.

edit: QQ is in fact a monstor here. If i raised UTG and got min re-raised by this position i would change my stanse.

okay... ill take that into consideration.

does this happen in live poker alot??

I did do the "right" thing.. but my gut was telling me he had AA, KK or at the least AK. My gut was right in this situation... but I can see the arguments to not listen to it.

jimbling

cardshark202 wrote:

You can't dig upwards.

lol... i can try

califano

jimbling wrote:

okay... ill take that into consideration.

does this happen in live poker alot??

I did do the "right" thing.. but my gut was telling me he had AA, KK or at the least AK. My gut was right in this situation... but I can see the arguments to not listen to it.

No. In live poker people mostly just do an all in re-raise with AK. The min re-raise with AK is predominantly an online thing where players see the 'raise' button and just click it.
Always remember that other players have different values on re-raising hands than you might. Like i say im thinking if he has KK or AA its just put down to a cold deck and if he's AK that hits i was happy to see it in the first place.

jimbling

rounders123 wrote:

You said "I did do the "right" thing." I might have missed something but i didnt see what you did or he actually had?.

I did push.. and he did have AA. my gut was telling me fold, but I knew all the arguments you've been giving. I just wanted to challange it a bit. Seems the only other person who would have had any misgivings was nicky.

califano

jimbling wrote:

I did push.. and he did have AA. my gut was telling me fold, but I knew all the arguments you've been giving. I just wanted to challange it a bit. Seems the only other person who would have had any misgivings was nicky.

Yeah i deleted this part because i went back and seen what you did and he had!. You still have little to regret because you know online that your going to be good with QQ here much more times than your not. Its a stinger but we all have to take our medicine like this every so often.

Anyway best of luck in Vegas Jimbling. I hope you clean up.

jimbling

rounders123 wrote:

Yeah i deleted this part because i went back and seen what you did and he had!. You still have little to regret because you know online that your going to be good with QQ here much more times than your not. Its a stinger but we all have to take our medicine like this every so often.

it wasnt about the medicine... and I hope people dont think I posted this for pitys sake. I wanted to start a discussion... which I did. I picked up a few things.... but I should have guessed the outcome.

I still think I am perfectly right to question the QQ. And I disagree with an auto push.
Its easy to play this hand by just looking at the maths and saying QQ is +EV here.
But when you have a number of things making you believe he has Top pair, and you think you have a good chance to continue on the ladder without this hand (I purposefully put it into the OP that the table was not difficult) then its a matter of comparing the +EV of this single hand with the EV of all the latter hands if you stay in the game.


anway.. .i can see the thoughts of the majority and ill let it lie. And since I have been discredited for life for saying QQ is not a monster I had better keep quite.

shoutman

I think it will be a sad day when people are afraid to post on boards through for fear of being berated and branded for life...
I was another going along the line of this hand definately not being an insta-push. I always admit to being a losing online player, but I definately feel that qq is not a hand that you are gonna be happy pushing with everytime. (obviously with three all ins before you you wont be happy but ya know what i mean)

NickyOD

cardshark202 wrote:

This is a clear push, especially as you have made a button raise which will often get less respect. I don't think there is any doubt in this one.

You're wrong. it's not a clear push at all. No one min re-reraises out of the BB here unless they are dangling a noose for you to hang yourself with. This is the equivilent of getting min raised on the river when you're holding a set and there's a possible flush on the board. He has the goods pure and simple.

cardshark202

NickyOD wrote:

You're wrong. it's not a clear push at all. No one min re-reraises out of the BB here unless they are dangling a noose for you to hang yourself with. This is the equivilent of getting min raised on the river when you're holding a set and there's a possible flush on the board. He has the goods pure and simple.

Okay

jimbling

god damn it..... knocked out of the $150 mtt QQ. hating QQ at the moment.

ROONEY_DIVES

That $150 is a donk game i'd quit playing it if i were you!! Seriously As for the QQ u gotta admit its a total sickener QQ v AA button v bb on a FT, for what its worth if he reraised all-in or to commit himself, you'd call pretty quick, i wouldnt get too hung up on it for too long. Punch something relatively soft or kick something that you dont want broken. Failing that, just shout really loudly and aimlessly for a few minutes.

Loosely related to your point, ive had a similar problem with KK not once, but THREE times in the past couple days. pretty similar each time. Late on in tournaments, decent stacks for me, standard raise in mid position, each time min-reraised late on, each time i min-reraised back, each time they proceeded to min-raise back. With 2 of the guys i was absolutely 100% positive they had AA ....so i went all in. Yeah. Genius. The third time i thought maybe AK so i went all in. Each time they had AA.

The problem with the min-raise is that idiots like myself have began to adopt that play with junk on a regular basis, and a significant number of players i know of are doing it too. Primarily i use it in the sb/bb situation where its folded to sb who makes it up pre and i check; flop comes a heap of crap (HOC) he bets i min-raise, he either folds or i continue bet turn n river. If he raises, generally i push to carry out the spirit of the min-raise - ie. i have it , you dont.

The question you have to ask is - would it be beyond probability that the bb in your case put you on a button steal and felt the best re-steal would be the min-reraise?? Its possible. He'd probably then proceed to go all in on a HOC flop. Pretty unlikely that late i gotta say. Ties in with my KK thing though, you might have strongly felt you were behind but making that pass in that spot is never gonna be easy.

jimbling

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

That $150 is a donk game i'd quit playing it if i were you!! Seriously

It's amazing the quality difference between that level game on American time and on Irish time. I wish I could play these more often... but obviously can't be playing until 6 in the morning when Im back home.

I know what your saying... and without a doubt, if he had gone all in I wouldn't have even thought about it. In fact thats exactly what happened in the 150 game, he had AK that time. AK7 on the flop.... ah well.

ROONEY_DIVES

Which events are you playing over there jimbling?!

Hectorjelly

jimbling wrote:

Villian is tight aggressive and a decent player.

I get dealt QQ on the button. Its folded around to me.
I put in standard raise up to 6k
SB Folds. BB raises to 12k.

Whats your move?

no decent player plays like that!

jimbling

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

Which events are you playing over there jimbling?!

if you mean what WSOP events, that would be none. Will only be there for 5 days... the only event I think I could play in would be the 1k rebuy.... and think ill skip that. Ill be mainly playing a few low level cash games, and maybe a tourney or two... not really sure... see where it takes me.