when to show bluffs and amounts to bet?

Washout

i prolly made a mistake by showing this down just wanted opinions.

but heres the scenario.

SE last night down to last 3 tables. Im on about 18k blinds are 300/600

folded around to me on the button and i raise to 2k with 72s.
SB folds big blind calls...he has about 10k behind.

flop: JT4

he checks to me.
i fire a bullet of 2.4k (want to ask whats about the right amount to bet here also. I really want to make it look like I have a hand and looking for a call in this instance and i thought 2.4k was about right against this particular player)

he folds showing QJ :eek: and puts me on a better pp or better kicker???

I decide to show my bluff. primarily for the reason that id been card dead for quite some time and just felt i was due some cards and wanted them to pay off.

just wondering when and what kind of players its good to show down cards to.

bman

Ok, i'll post my reply here instead .

I definitely wouldn't be showing cards at this stage of a tourney. The blinds are getting high and you want your raises to be respected. Their not going to be respected if you show that your playing crap cards. 2.4k seems about right there, much more and it may look like an overbet, less and he's lightly to call.

Killme00

I would never show that...never ever

WH BONNEY

he folds showing QJ and puts me on a better pp or better kicker???

OMG

Hitman Actual

First of all, BB played this hand very poorly. He hits his flop as good as he could expect, and then folds to a bet. WTF? Why did he call in the first place?

I definately wouldn't be showing bluffs when tournaments start to get into the tight stages. You have to hope to win a lot of pots uncontested at this stage. And expecting to hit some cards because you've been running cold is crazy thinking, it just doesn't happen like that.


But you did play the hand fine, but it's standard enough play here (Button raise, button C-bet when checked to).

ollyk1

I would never show here. I would tell him it was a good fold and possibly sulk for a little while.

How can showing the hand help you Washout?

The guy is going to try and play better against you in a position where you are hoping to steal his blinds for the next hour. He is going to try and play back at you and you don't want that. You know this yourself you were amazed at the strength of your table image and the quality of the hand the guy laid down so you decided to shock the table for a fleeting moment of satisfaction. Everyone has made this mistake at some stage but it's still not a good idea.

I very rarely show good players (whom I don't know) my cards. I very rarely show my hands in front of bad players unless occasionally its a good hand (in their minds) and I need to keep the believing even then its occasionally and always at the later stages (FT or last two tables).

With your image I think you should only show good hands and play up to your tight image whilst raising with a wider range then you used to.

Also never show a big laydown at a table aginst unknowns. No good can come of it.

Washout

thanks guys...i kind of new it was a msitake as i said in my first line of the post as soon as i did it...impulsiveness got the better of me.

poker is a weird and wonderful game...you think your closing down on your mistakes alot more and then more and more differant ones just crop up.

all about experience i guess. guess i gotta play live alot more than my average of say once every 2 weeks or so.

its a totally differant beast to online but 10 times more fun.

Norwich Fan Rob

id recommend almost never showing a bluff, the only time i could think of it is if your opp made a huge laydown, and u know for a fact that he can be tilted if u show.

I sometimes show big hands when i raise in position and get it through, remember, late on in multis, u rarely want a caller, image in everything.

Goodluck2me

ollyk1 wrote:

Also never show a big laydown at a table aginst unknowns. No good can come of it.

im not so sure, if they think you are laying down big hands its as good as always showing big hands yourself and are much more likely to bluff against you. imo

ollyk1

goodluck2me wrote:

im not so sure, if they think you are laying down big hands its as good as always showing big hands yourself and are much more likely to bluff against you. imo

Each to their own gl2me but I think showing you are capable of folding "big hands" in front of generally poor players will mean they will start trying to steal you blinds etc. at the later stages especially in the games Washout is playing and with the generally tight table image he has.

He has to have some sort of hand to look these people up and be capable of maybe calling an all-in push in his BB with hands like A7o or 66 at the later stages of the FT and tournie for this to be +EV imho. Not everyone can do this.

My own image would be somewhat looser and I'd be known for sometimes making calls that other people wouldn't if I thought I was getting odds or even if it was marginally positive in the long run. Net result is my blinds get raised a lot less. I wouldn't want to change that so I never show a big laydown (not that I make them that often lol).

Take as a for instance the guy who showed Washout the QJ fold wtf did he achieve? If Washout hadn't shown the bluff behind he could have bluffed him all night by the looks of it and the guy has basically encouraged him by waving a flag and saying I don't have the cohones to call with top pair reasonable kicker.

Generalisations are dangerous in poker and maybe never show is very strong but its not bad long-term advice imho.

RoundTower

Some of your opponents are too loose and some of them are too tight. Mostly you want to encourage the loose ones to play even looser and the tight ones to play tighter. Sometimes with deeper stacks or in a cash game you want the tight players to loosen up because they will play worse. But in this case you want this guy to keep on playing badly, and that means you don't show the bluff.

Atlas_IRL

done something similiar in the merrion 110 game. raised it up to 1.4k with 46s

c bet the flop with middle pair then on the turn the next 6 came so i checked, he hit a straight on the river and folded to my quick reraise all in

I showd him and he was pissed and it tilted him a bit but he still got to the FT

careca

Washout wrote:

I decide to show my bluff. primarily for the reason that id been card dead for quite some time and just felt i was due some cards and wanted them to pay off.

That to me is the big problem with showing a bluff. If the cards you 'are due' dont arrive, you are in a lot of trouble. But I wouldn't say never show them. Just as a few have pointed out, this was a bad time to show. I agree with RT also, can be handy if you want some action in a cash game. Or if you just want to annoy some prik /

Goodluck2me

ollyk1 wrote:

Each to their own gl2me but I think showing you are capable of folding "big hands" in front of generally poor players will mean they will start trying to steal you blinds etc. at the later stages especially in the games Washout is playing and with the generally tight table image he has.

He has to have some sort of hand to look these people up and be capable of maybe calling an all-in push in his BB with hands like A7o or 66 at the later stages of the FT and tournie for this to be +EV imho. Not everyone can do this.

My own image would be somewhat looser and I'd be known for sometimes making calls that other people wouldn't if I thought I was getting odds or even if it was marginally positive in the long run. Net result is my blinds get raised a lot less. I wouldn't want to change that so I never show a big laydown (not that I make them that often lol).

Take as a for instance the guy who showed Washout the QJ fold wtf did he achieve? If Washout hadn't shown the bluff behind he could have bluffed him all night by the looks of it and the guy has basically encouraged him by waving a flag and saying I don't have the cohones to call with top pair reasonable kicker.

Generalisations are dangerous in poker and maybe never show is very strong but its not bad long-term advice imho.

i agree that showing that QJ will only make him likely to be stolen from, but showing big laydowns EARLY in a tounrament means people will loosen up against you and become much more aggressive with you => paying you off whne you do hit a big hand, obviously you dont want to make a habit of showing them but once in a while iv found it useful, it also mkaes the re-steal a possibility as you get them thinking if he wouldnt go in with that hand, whats he playing with now? therefore gainign you respect for your aggression. i just class it as the same as showing big cards when you bet.
however i agree this isnt desirable in the latter stages i agree as you want people to stay away from your blinds. if people think youl call their raises with nothing they will be Much less likely to steal them which is fair enough too.

califano

Washout you mad brastid you!. I like to show a good hand to the likes of BigDragon and ollyk1 because i know them and i would'nt want them sulking!. I'd never show a bad hand bluff like you did there unless the guy was a gobby mo fo or i wanted action soon after.
You have to think about what youre trying to achieve by showing a hand. I think many of us show without thinking about why were doing it.

White Knight

I was sitting beside you at the time washout and like I said ... you got really really lucky on that hand. He called initial raise with QJ and if he was a stronger player you would have been up the creek without a paddle! Calling preflop with QJ and seeing J94 or whatever it was i and anyone else here will be firing those chips out (but we wouldnt be calling your raises with QJo )

You were playing well before that and it was well worth the continuation bet on that flop. Although as mentioned showing the hand at that stage especially with the shortstacks at the table confused me but not as confused as I was at the players admission of folding QJ ... not sure which 1 of you I wanted to get in a hand with quicker at the time

Mr. Flibble

Washout wrote:

I decide to show my bluff. primarily for the reason that id been card dead for quite some time and just felt i was due some cards and wanted them to pay off.

just wondering when and what kind of players its good to show down cards to.

It (being due good cards) doesn't quite work that way but I know where you are coming from. If you haven't had any cards in ages and therefore have an utlra tight image running a bluff with crap and showing it might be a good play so you get action when you do get a hand. But I would only do this in a very deep stacked tournament or in a cash game where stealing blinds etc isn't a concern. In you situation your image is perfect for stealing blinds and pots (as demonstrated!) and you definatly don't want to change that.

For example, if I have been playing a cash game and haven't raised in 80 hands (and I'm sure my opponants are playing attention, very important) I might raise UTG with an 82o and show it. Even if I get a caller I can usually take the pot on any flop unless its hit someone hard as they really have to give me credit for an overpair. So basically I'll do this to give myself a loose image, which is good if I'm actually playing tight, and to get action when I pick up a hand.

But as everyone else has said, I wouldn't do it in your situation because you don't want a loose image when the blinds are getting large.

ROONEY_DIVES

If you really dont like someone or they're irritating you. Or if you're on tv and wanna try show your friends who dont play much a cool bluff. I tried that, not sure if it will make the final edit so prob not worth a toss. actually my one and only show ever that i liked a lot was in the Charity Event at City West on bubble im in bb with 55k blinds 3/6k , swedish guy on button makes it 14k (he has 67k) folded to me, i think for a couple mins and move all in. He thinks for couple mins, folds and turns the Ace of hearts, saying 'jeez'. I turned over the 2 of hearts. I was trying to a) say to the table 'dont fk with me' and b) look cool. In summary, if on tv or against someone you dont like or if you have an objective that can be furthered along by the show.