rights regarding a car purchased privately

kopijacked

I bought a car last saturday the 8th of July privately from a seller in the UK, the car ran in to serious engine trouble on the 12th of July. I put about 200 miles on the car and I did nothing to cause the engine to run in to problems.

Basically the car will need engine repairs to the amount of 3,300 euro and I am just trying to find out what my legal rights are with regards to getting a full refund or getting the seller to pay for the repairs?

The car was advertised publicly and as far as I was aware was in good condition, obviously this is not the case as the car had problems 3 days after the purchase.

I also know that an MOT cert. that was obtained from the seller is false and he paid over the normal amount to get it.

where do I stand?

Any information would be helpful.

Thanks

Anan1

Sorry, but I'd imagine you have no rights in such a situation. This is why it's so important when buying privately to vet the seller, have the car checked over by a mechanic (if you're not sure what to look for yourself), verify service history with the garage, HPI check the car, etc, etc. What car is it, and what's wrong with the engine? There might be a cheaper way to fix it.

chicken_food

how can he pay over the amount for an mot? Maybe work was done to it to get it to pass. Which is how they do things over there. You dont have any rights as it was all done privately. also the mot doesnt test the reliability or cond of engine,just emissions etc. you 'should' have got it checked out by a mechanic or aa before buying. that 55£ wouldv saved you 3300 euro,but like everything in life we are only wise AFTER the events. I dont mean to point out the obvious and sound like im giving out to you.
as a matter of interest,whats wrong with the car?

Anan1

chicken_food wrote:

how can he pay over the amount for an mot?

A crisp £50 note to the tester.

kdevitt

Heard about the car alright Andy - real pain in the arse - the law firm my missus works for have a client who is sueing the seller of a car for the full purchase amount, as he was aware the car was damaged when he sold it. Its been dragging on for almost 2 years now - and I don't think its any closer to being settled. The guy can't even drive the car pending the outcome though. I've been told that if you were purposely misled by the seller, that you do have certain comeback.

I'd contact the European Consumer Affairs bureau, they're on O'Connell St. They'll be able to give you accurate advice.

TempestSabre

3,300 sounds like a lot for a repair. Must be a new engine?

Slinky>

I think to have any sort of comeback in a private sale you need to prove he actually knew about the fault before he sold you the car, as he is not a dealer/mechanic this is will be hard to prove,

Did he write sold as seen on the receipt?
What sort of car is it? Cant you just buy a second hand/ reconditioned engine?

quarryman

This is simple: Did you get the car checked before you bought it?

If not, there's no one else to blame.

TempestSabre

quarryman wrote:

This is simple: Did you get the car checked before you bought it?

If not, there's no one else to blame.

Can you do something if theres been deliberate attempt to fool you though.

Anan1

TempestSabre wrote:

Can you do something if theres been deliberate attempt to fool you though.

Being realistic, what are the chances of proving that?

Sonnenblumen

I do not think you have any rights, I'm sorry to say.

Even if the car was stolen, re-reg etc etc you've got no rights. Well if you bought a stolen car, you'd have to take a civil action to recover your money from the seller.

Unless you know your way around cars, private sales are real dodgy, very often better to buy through a dealer. You pay more but you get more than 200miles of trouble free driving, by any chance was it an Al......no I better not say it, might upset the girlies and have them screaming for their Teacher.

Sorry for your troubles.
S

Anan1

Sonnenblumen wrote:

by any chance was it an Al......no I better not say it, might upset the girlies and have them screaming for their Teacher.

You're still really upste about your Alfa experience, aren't you? Face it, you didn't look after them properly and they let you down. Better luck with the Hiace.;)

secret_squirrel

If the MOT cert is fake then you might be on safer ground. Since he's then commited fraud.

If its real one that was just had £50 slipped to the mechanic then its going to be much harder.

Unless you are a mechanic yourself its always worth getting the AA or a mechanic mate to check out a potential purchase.

TempestSabre

Anan1 wrote:

Being realistic, what are the chances of proving that?

Depends on the situation.

gyppo

@OP,

What exactly did happen the engine?
Did the cambelt snap? Something like this would destroy your engine. Did the car have any service history?


The car could have flied through an MOT a few days before, and be in perfect mechanical condition as far as testing went.

Oops, hadnt seen the bit about the MOT being false - my apologies.

Sonnenblumen

Anan1 wrote:

You're still really upste about your Alfa experience, aren't you? Face it, you didn't look after them properly and they let you down. Better luck with the Hiace.;)

Hi Anal,

stop cluttering up the threads with your useless ****e, go find a dung heap to squeeze into. I've no idea what you're on about, I found the Alfa thread hilarious, painfully truthful which few could handle. I've had the good luck to owning good cars so yes I've no experience of owning an 'Alfa won't start, won't Go piece of ....'!

If you want help with learning more about Motors, start a thread of your own.

Anan1

Sonnenblumen wrote:

I've no idea what you're on about, I found the Alfa thread hilarious, painfully truthful which few could handle.

You enjoyed being made a fool of? Guess you're in the right place so! Shame you're going to get banned, isn't it.;)

Anyway, back to the point of the thread. OP - in order to advise you, we really need to know what exactly happened to the car, how you know that the MOT cert was false and exactly what you mean by false, ie was the cert itself false or was it fraudulently obtained?

ciarsd

Lads give it a rest eh? and leave this thread to the OP.

Kopijack, where do you stand at the minute? Have you been in contact with the seller or any authorities?

Henry Ford III

I'd like to know more on this too.

Did you get a HPI/inspection beforehand?

What is the nature of the engine damage?

It's not a good situation to be in, and I feel sorry for you.

Anan1

ciarsd wrote:

Lads give it a rest eh? and leave this thread to the OP.

I actually am trying to help the OP here. Bottom line is, we need more information.

kopijacked

Hey im back!


Ok well here is the case,

I bought the car on saturday the 8th at about 1:30P.M. I had previously been over and had a short test drive in the car and gave it a check over, but I had to rush back to get my plane home after the test drive so didn't get as much time as I would have liked to.

So I went over 2 weeks later to collect the car on the guarantee from the owner that everything was going well and I would not have any issues with it. An hour after I left the sellers house the car actually shut down on me a couple of times.
when I was coming to traffic lights or slowing down and the revs would go slightly below 1K RPM then the car would stall, steering would lock up! I have evidence of asking the seller what was wrong with the car through a text message, that I have kept. This was extremely dangerous on a couple of occasions and was not only a threat to me but other road users.

On wednesday after driving the car for roughly about 10hours in total, the car was in 3rd gear at about 6K RPM and I felt a judder on the accelarator pedal and white smoke was pouring out of the exhaust. I got the car to a standstill off to the side of the road. When I opened the engine bay oil had exploded all over the engine and it was everywhere. The oil had come up through the plugs and was leaking around the rocker cover. I didn't hear any bangs or pops before it happened and didn't expect it at all. A friend was in the car at the time and we couldn't understand why it happened.

The car had to be towed and received an inspection and basically the rings were gone and the head gasket, the best option that I was given was a rebuild along with new pistons and rings. From the original advertisement the car had a full engine rebuild 6000 miles ago with all new pistons/rings and other internal parts.

The MOT cert that was obtained seems genuine, but the tester was given 150 Sterling extra or so to pass the car, so therefore the car could have been less than roadworthy.

I have been in contact with the seller and he said he is willing to pay for new rings and a headgasket (about 100 quid sterling) and then I can get them fitted and pay for the labour. According to him and his mechanic that is all the car needs to be repaired. He claims he doesn't know the reason why the car did what it did.

I have replied and told him that if he gets the parts and his mechanic( who actually lives in belfast) fits the parts and can stand by his work and give me some kind of guarantee then I won't try and take it any further.

I am awaiting his reply.

TempestSabre

kopijacked wrote:

He....I had previously been over and had a short test drive in the car and gave it a check over,..

Are you qualified to check a car?

kopijacked wrote:

So I went over 2 weeks later to collect the car on the guarantee from the owner that everything was going well and I would not have any issues with it.

Thats so vague its meaningless. What issues, how long is the guarantee, what happens in a dispute etc.

kopijacked wrote:

An hour after I left the sellers house the car actually shut down on me a couple of times.
when I was coming to traffic lights or slowing down and the revs would go slightly below 1K RPM then the car would stall, steering would lock up! I have evidence of asking the seller what was wrong with the car through a text message, that I have kept. This was extremely dangerous on a couple of occasions and was not only a threat to me but other road users.

You should have brought it right back. Especially if it was dangerous? Why on earth would you keep going?

kopijacked wrote:

On wednesday after driving the car for roughly about 10hours in total, the car was in 3rd gear at about 6K RPM and I felt a judder on the accelarator pedal and white smoke was pouring out of the exhaust. I got the car to a standstill off to the side of the road. When I opened the engine bay oil had exploded all over the engine and it was everywhere. The oil had come up through the plugs and was leaking around the rocker cover. I didn't hear any bangs or pops before it happened and didn't expect it at all. A friend was in the car at the time and we couldn't understand why it happened.

Basically the engines blown

kopijacked wrote:

The car had to be towed and received an inspection and basically the rings were gone and the head gasket, the best option that I was given was a rebuild along with new pistons and rings. From the original advertisement the car had a full engine rebuild 6000 miles ago with all new pistons/rings and other internal parts.

Who did this work, what warranty was on the work? Why was it needed in the first place?

The MOT cert that was obtained seems genuine, but the tester was given 150 Sterling extra or so to pass the car, so therefore the car could have been less than roadworthy.

How do you know this? Why buy the car knowing this?

I have been in contact with the seller and he said he is willing to pay for new rings and a headgasket (about 100 quid sterling) and then I can get them fitted and pay for the labour. According to him and his mechanic that is all the car needs to be repaired. He claims he doesn't know the reason why the car did what it did.

Bsaically hes washing his hands of it.

I have replied and told him that if he gets the parts and his mechanic( who actually lives in belfast) fits the parts and can stand by his work and give me some kind of guarantee then I won't try and take it any further.

The same mechanic? Whats different about this guarantee from the first one when you picked it up?

Sorry for your trouble. Hate to say it, but you didn't do your homework, didn't check the car out properly, and knowingly bought a car with a history of problems. The only way I'd accept the car now is if it was checked by a independent, qualified, authorised engineer or garage and the repair work was carried out and fully guaranteed by the same. I think you've no chance of getting that. You bought the car as seen, from a private seller. He as no way of knowing you didn't thrash the car while you had it. You've no way proving he knowingly sold you a lemon.

Is this a BMW?

Anan1

Are you absolutely sure the seller was not a trader masquerading as a private seller?

secret_squirrel

Sounds like a prize case of caveat emptor to me, unless you can prove the bung for the MOT, which you still havent said how you found out about it.

Anan1

Another potential way out would be if the seller could be proven to be a trader.

Seth Brundle

Even if the seller was a trader, the car was deemed to be in PMO when bought. The damage occured when the OP was driving it.
The paperwork appears to be kosher (Id leave bribery allegations out of it as there is no proof) so its an unfortunate lesson for the OP and nothing more.

Anan1

kbannon wrote:

Even if the seller was a trader, the car was deemed to be in PMO when bought. The damage occured when the OP was driving it.

I'm no expert on these matters, but I do seem to remember that if a trader sells a car then it has to be of merchantable quality. Certainly, if the OP had bought from a garage then he would have a case.

anthony4335

Buying privately

You have fewer rights when you buy privately or at an auction. In a private sale, the goods must be as described, but a seller who is not acting as a business is not covered by the rules on satisfactory quality and fitness for purpose.

This is an extract from the consumer website in the uk, http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/your-rights/fs_c04.shtml#12

Check out the MOT by ringing the Garage where it was performed, try and record the converstation. If this is false or in someway hinky this will give legal grounds for small claims court.
Check to see if the seller was registered as a seller, if this is so you can use the consumer affairs bunch to go after him.
Have a HPI check done, should have done this prior to buying.

legs11

thats bad luck, but as the lads say you didnt do your homework, id gander that this is a BMW also, a 6pot mayb!

when buying a 2nd hand BMW, its paramount you get it checked out by a person who knows them inside out, as parts and whatnot cost piles if anything goes wrong. having said that i am considering getting a a nice 6pot coupe in the uk , but i am cautious....

if i was you i would see if there is anyway to get your money back , in full. the fake mot is your only hope, if you can verify the seller got a false mot and knowingly sold you a lemon.

secret_squirrel

anthony4335 wrote:

Check out the MOT by ringing the Garage where it was performed, try and record the converstation. If this is false or in someway hinky this will give legal grounds for small claims court.

Actually it wont - recording a conversation without someone's agreement is imadmissable in court.

kopijacked

I have posted on the Integra Type R forum of which both the owner of the car and the person that built/mapped the car are members:


http://www.itr-dc2.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18937

secret_squirrel

So do I assume from the posts on that forum that you bought a modded car without any mechanical check by an expert?:eek:

Im no expert but I would have thought supercharging an already highly stressed peformance engine isnt the wisest course of action. Ok I've heard the arguement that supercharging actual reduces the stresses on an engine but still......

Im a little puzzled that the performance of a standard type R wasnt enough for you. Why ruin that legendary honda build quality by letting some half arsed modder near it? The mind boggles....

No offense but you brought this on yourself all the way imo.....

TempestSabre

An ITR with a Jackson SC kit. I guess it all depends on the contract/warranty you have with the seller, and based on the pre-purchase inspection you had done. Otherwise I'd presume you bought it as seen. But I don't know much about you check out a modded car.

kopijacked

Well from what I understand from the guy that built the engine, the owner knew that it needed this part...


So he knew that the car had a fault and can be held responsible yeah?

TempestSabre

kopijacked wrote:

Well from what I understand from the guy that built the engine, the owner knew that it needed this part...


So he knew that the car had a fault and can be held responsible yeah?

How would you prove it?

kopijacked

Received this in an e-mail from the owner:

"Henry asked me to buy a new sensor which I did, when I went up to collect the car which I did do, but on arrival I found that there was nothing wrong with the sensor but the wide band had packed in

The car was left to run on its compensation according the air temp etc... I sent this back to DTA and they said when they get a new batch they would call me to book the car in and get it fitted which they did not.

I rang them on several occasions and was told they would ring me, at this time I decided that I was not using the car anymore and decided to sell it as I was unaware that it was *essential* part of the cars running"

Unaware but still aware that it was necessary if you ask me, this is basically saying to me that he knew that something for the car was needed, but was just to lazy to have it fitted and didn't see the point when selling the car on( even though he knew it was something needed for the car).

So he knew the car was faulty/not complete without this part but failed to notify me and or have the issue rectified before selling.

Henry Ford III

It's a private sale of a modded car.

You have no comeback whatsoever afaik irrespective of how good or bad the cars condition is/was.

kopijacked

Well it was faulty and he failed to inform me of the fault.

If he had of informed me of the fault then I wouldn't have any comeback.

Henry Ford III

In a private sale he doesn't have to tell you diddly squat. Even if he knew the engine was going to pop it's your lookout and not his.

It's strictly "caveat emptor" and the onus was on you to have checked the car over 100% before buying it.

I reckon a decent mechanic should have spotted the engines pending demise. The oil pressure must have been low surely?

In any event I reckon you have no comeback.

TempestSabre

I think you should spilt it 50/50 myself.

secret_squirrel

Henry Ford III wrote:

In a private sale he doesn't have to tell you diddly squat. Even if he knew the engine was going to pop it's your lookout and not his.

It's strictly "caveat emptor" and the onus was on you to have checked the car over 100% before buying it.

In any event I reckon you have no comeback.

Quoted for truth.

If you got an offer of any money at all I would take it.

He doesnt owe you squat under UK law.