Fundamentalist Christians in Dublin

punky

I was enjoying a drink by the Grand Canal with a friend the other day when we were approached by a middle-aged couple with a video camera.
They asked if they could ask us some questions. Without really thinking about it, I said OK. So the woman started filming us while the man, with a microphone, started asking questions.

It started off with 'What is the Bible?'. A bit of a strange question.
He then asked some other questions such as 'Do you believe in Evolution?'. When I said that I did and that I don't believe that this conflicts with my own religious beliefs, he starting debating the issue with me. For every scientific fact (or what I believe to be fact) I said, he replied with a quote from the bible. I then suggested that we're not really going to agree because I'm the type of person that doesn't take everything in the bible literally.

This was all fair enough. I enjoy a good debate and he was calm and reasonable enough (although I'm not convinced evolution deniers are actually that 'reasonable').

But then he started asking me if I thought what's going on in Middle East has anything to do with the book of revelations. Then he asked what I thought of Islam. At this stage I was starting to get freaked out. He was basically suggesting that what's happening in the Middle East was predicted in the book of revelations and that the end of the world is upon us.

Has anyone else any experience of these or similar people in Ireland? I find their views very extreme and distrubing.

BrianCalgary

punky wrote:

I find their views very extreme and distrubing.

I'm curious, why?

babyvaio

BrianCalgary wrote:

I'm curious, why?

Yeah, why? I meanmaybe people were just passionate about the subject, and 'cos of the fact that they love the Bible they are trying to catch a piece of time by proving that the actual prophecy is becoming a real event. Or maybe something else. But I wouldn't say there are fanatics, why?

It's like people have different passions, c'mon let's get real - some folks can stay in a pub for days like talking about bets, football, etc. so if some guy asks another hey man, do you think we're gona win the bet? a zillion times in a row I still woudln't say that he is a fanatic. The perception differs by the angle.

punky

What I found disturbing is that they seem to believe, as apparently a small number of Christians do, that the current conflict in the Middle East is going to bring about the end of the world. The Jews will convert to Christianity and the Muslims will rot in hell. This absolutism really disturbs me. I really cannot believe that the end of the world is coming and that only a small number of people who happen to believe in the right God will make it to heaven. That's what disturbs me.

I've no problem with people believing in creationism. I do think they're completely wrong but at least their opinions aren't dangerous. Considering the influence of the American Christian right on the Bush administration, I find this whole idea of a big war in the middle east bringing about the end of the world to be very worrying.

I also find any suggestion that only those who practice the right religion will go to heaven very disturbing. I cannot accept that someone growing up in a different religious culture is doomed, regardless of how moral or immoral they may be.

babyvaio

punky wrote:

... the Muslims will rot in hell.

To calm you down, I can assure you that Muslims will go to Paradise, I'm not saying all of them/us, only God Almighty knows who exactly will and who will not.

lostexpectation

punky wrote:

I was enjoying a drink by the Grand Canal with a friend the other day when we were approached by a middle-aged couple with a video camera.
They asked if they could ask us some questions. Without really thinking about it, I said OK. So the woman started filming us while the man, with a microphone, started asking questions.

Has anyone else any experience of these or similar people in Ireland? I find their views very extreme and distrubing.

I have to ask were they American?

Hobbes

They sound like Rapturists. Thought they were just an urban legend.

Wibbs

babyvaio wrote:

Yeah, why? I meanmaybe people were just passionate about the subject, and 'cos of the fact that they love the Bible they are trying to catch a piece of time by proving that the actual prophecy is becoming a real event. Or maybe something else. But I wouldn't say there are fanatics, why?

It's like people have different passions, c'mon let's get real - some folks can stay in a pub for days like talking about bets, football, etc. so if some guy asks another hey man, do you think we're gona win the bet? a zillion times in a row I still woudln't say that he is a fanatic. The perception differs by the angle.

Good point and an interesting way to look at it. For me they only become fanatics when they start screaming about hellfire and how others are going there( and seem to forget the whole "judge not, lest you be judged" bit). Fanatics are like good art, we may not know much about it, but we can spot when we see it.

L31mr0d

punky wrote:

I was enjoying a drink by the Grand Canal with a friend the other day when we were approached by a middle-aged couple with a video camera.
They asked if they could ask us some questions. Without really thinking about it, I said OK. So the woman started filming us while the man, with a microphone, started asking questions.

It started off with 'What is the Bible?'. A bit of a strange question.
He then asked some other questions such as 'Do you believe in Evolution?'. When I said that I did and that I don't believe that this conflicts with my own religious beliefs, he starting debating the issue with me. For every scientific fact (or what I believe to be fact) I said, he replied with a quote from the bible. I then suggested that we're not really going to agree because I'm the type of person that doesn't take everything in the bible literally.

This was all fair enough. I enjoy a good debate and he was calm and reasonable enough (although I'm not convinced evolution deniers are actually that 'reasonable').

But then he started asking me if I thought what's going on in Middle East has anything to do with the book of revelations. Then he asked what I thought of Islam. At this stage I was starting to get freaked out. He was basically suggesting that what's happening in the Middle East was predicted in the book of revelations and that the end of the world is upon us.

Has anyone else any experience of these or similar people in Ireland? I find their views very extreme and distrubing.

I personally don't agree with this dogmatic approach to teaching, if people want to hear the truth as told from the Bible they need to be looking for it. If I was sitting in a pub and an Atheist came up and started trying to reason me away from religion i'd tell him where to go, the same would be true for an atheist I think (although they do like a good debate)

About the book of revelation, if you have actually fully studied it, and looked into how the bible indicates the end of this system (you'd be interested that there is actually a maths behind it which i'm considering on posting someday, although it is lengthy) it gives certain signs as to the end of this system and armageddon (which every christian, regardless of sect, has to acknowledge) and a lot of whats happening on a world scale now is written in there, albeit cryptically (which is why there is so much debate over it). A few good scriptures to start with would be 2 Timothy 3:1-7 and Matthew 24:4-14 which are more easily understood but still concern themselves with the end of days. Revelation does scare people which is why these people where wrong to mention it to you, screaming "the end is nigh" only hardens people to Christians. Myself when studying the bible, I was told that just as how it is the last book of the bible it should be covered last, and it was right, there is a lot of knowledge that you have to already have before even attempting to read into the prophecies contained therein. It helped me not to react as you did to these people, when I realised what it was saying

lostexpectation

L31mr0d wrote:

I personally don't agree with this dogmatic approach to teaching, if people want to hear the truth as told from the Bible they need to be looking for it. If I was sitting in a pub and an Atheist came up and started trying to reason me away from religion i'd tell him where to go, the same would be true for an atheist I think (although they do like a good debate)

About the book of revelation, if you have actually fully studied it, and looked into how the bible indicates the end of this system (you'd be interested that there is actually a maths behind it which i'm considering on posting someday, although it is lengthy) it gives certain signs as to the end of this system and armageddon (which every christian, regardless of sect, has to acknowledge) and a lot of whats happening on a world scale now is written in there, albeit cryptically (which is why there is so much debate over it). A few good scriptures to start with would be 2 Timothy 3:1-7 and Matthew 24:4-14 which are more easily understood but still concern themselves with the end of days. Revelation does scare people which is why these people where wrong to mention it to you, screaming "the end is nigh" only hardens people to Christians. Myself when studying the bible, I was told that just as how it is the last book of the bible it should be covered last, and it was right, there is a lot of knowledge that you have to already have before even attempting to read into the prophecies contained therein. It helped me not to react as you did to these people, when I realised what it was saying

when is armageddon just so I know, does it mean literal armageddon.

L31mr0d

lostexpectation wrote:

when is armageddon just so I know, does it mean literal armageddon.

There are only signs that will herald in armageddon, which, like I said to explain them would require hours of showing you scriptures in proof. Regardless, simply put, at the end of the gentile times (which can be worked out to end near the beginning of the last century) the last days of this system where to begin, shortly into this period the world governments and people in general will try to do away with organised religion, and will try to declare "peace and security" worldwide (1 Thessalonians 5:1-5) and remove the concept of god altogether and replace gods rule over mankind with mans. Along with this will be the riding of the four horsemen, causing natural disasters, disease epidemics, deaths and wars to start breaking out and increase in frequency all over the planet. Its at this point that the bible says that armageddon will begin.

Like I said this is not tea time stuff, and I would only fully explain it to someone who already has a good knowledge of Bible scripture. But I believe fully that this is going to happen, I mean i've known about this for the last 15 years and the changes i've seen happening worldwide with peoples views of religion, and disregard for its teaching, the way the earth is being destroyed, the rise in frequency of natural disasters and epidemics and the constant state of war the earth seems to be in now. This is all written in prophecy that we have known about for the last 2000 years.

Time Magazine

punky wrote:

I find their views very extreme and distrubing.

To me, there's a lot to be picked up in that statement.

There are approximately 2 billion (one out of three) Christians in the world, all of whom declare faith in the Bible. The majority of these, as I do too, do not believe that those who fail to accept/reject Christianity (as distinct from those who have never heard of ti) will not be saved. Yes, this means fire and brimstone. Certainly that's more plausable than, say, the resurrection of Christ and continued consecration through transubstansiation - but you don't have a problem with that? Is that not extereme?

Now these lads you met think the world is going to end. Most Christians do. (Incidentally, from a sociological point of view, most Christians probably think it's going to happen in their time; but has no impact on whether its true or not). You've said yourself, intuitively, you don't have a problem with people believing in transubstansiation. As L31mr0d has mentioned, there is certainly a fairly reasonable case (based upon Biblical references) to argue the end times are nigh. This is, absolutely, a disturbing thought. Personally, I can see Israel going too far and prompting Europe to fight back against them - I'm sure one could consider six other armies willing to do it too.

The theory that we are now living out the prophecies of Revelations is more logical than some of the stuff you read on the Soccer board, and certainly less biased. I accept, and repeat, that this is a very, very disturbing thought; particularly for those who don't believe or are unsure and so on.

Whether the thought it disturbing or not though is completely irrelevant. It will happen or it will not, in the same way that God either exists or does not regardless of, say, priest abuse scandals.

The views expressed by those people - and yes, they can be freaky, they're rarely socially well-adapted people - are only as extreme as the million-or-so people who attend a consecration ceremony every Sunday in Ireland. Yet you consider them "very extreme" and "disturbing".

This leads me to conclude that one of two things is at play here. Firstly, maybe you simply consider the concept of the end too much to fully accept and that you cognitively dissonate it off as fundamentalist fodder; if there is some truth in this you're not being true to yourself. The alternative situation is that you don't really have much respect for the concept/beliefs of Christianity, but you tolerate them so long as it does not interfere with you. Your post is laced with subtle hints about evolutionism etc. that you do not agree with, so this is more probable than the first.

In Europe today there is a truly vitriolic and biased approach against the Churhc and faith in general in the minds of the people. It is completely socially unacceptable to joke about the Holocaust or openly mock (for example) the Sikh faith; but tshirts like 'Jesus is coming - look busy' and jokes about paedophilic priests are rife. Society is quick to dismiss believers as those needing psychological crutches and social cowards - I believe it was Sleepy who stated on this website that he does not consider there to be place for religion in modern society - but perhaps it casts not such a lens unto itself to examine whether or not itself has a tinted vision with regard to faith.

I accept that there are people who believe in God for reasons of assurance or ignorance. I believe you are afflicted by a similar, but inverted scope. The end is nigh; or it is not. The faith held by two billion people can not unreasonably conclude that it is. Whether it is extreme or disturbing is of no consequence.

lostexpectation

L31mr0d wrote:

There are only signs that will herald in armageddon, which, like I said to explain them would require hours of showing you scriptures in proof. Regardless, simply put, at the end of the gentile times (which can be worked out to end near the beginning of the last century) the last days of this system where to begin, shortly into this period the world governments and people in general will try to do away with organised religion, and will try to declare "peace and security" worldwide (1 Thessalonians 5:1-5) and remove the concept of god altogether and replace gods rule over mankind with mans. Along with this will be the riding of the four horsemen, causing natural disasters, disease epidemics, deaths and wars to start breaking out and increase in frequency all over the planet. Its at this point that the bible says that armageddon will begin.

Like I said this is not tea time stuff, and I would only fully explain it to someone who already has a good knowledge of Bible scripture. But I believe fully that this is going to happen, I mean i've known about this for the last 15 years and the changes i've seen happening worldwide with peoples views of religion, and disregard for its teaching, the way the earth is being destroyed, the rise in frequency of natural disasters and epidemics and the constant state of war the earth seems to be in now. This is all written in prophecy that we have known about for the last 2000 years.

I ask cos just like the last guy going on about Mahmood Abbas, I believe the book of revelations stuff is useless unless it can teach one something about how to live on day to day basis. Does it liamroid? I guess it may say 'be good cos you will be judged', but thats a bit obvious and you don't really need a story about endgames to explain that, do you.

As someone asked in the other forum if it were treated as philosophy how would it go. That should be able to be outlined in a few sentences.

--
It might seen as extreme if it overrides or pushes you to not lookafter yourselves or others or recognise certain realities. Even if there many other things that do that.