Is Ireland in the throes of a "crime crisis"?

CMF

I am doing a bit of research on our criminal justice system (CJS) at the moment and was wondering if I could get some opinions on how well ye think the CJS works?

First, do you think Ireland is in the middle of a crime crisis?

If so, what informs this opinion?

Do you get alot of your information from the media?

If so, what media (eg newspaper, radio, telly etc.)

What do you think is the best way for crime in Ireland to be tackled:
a) more garda powers, harsher punishment, longer sentences
b) more focus on the causes of crime and the individual offender
c) a more community oriented approach e.g. the juvenile diversion project

How do you feel about political responses to crime in Ireland? Are they adequate?

Would really appreciate any opinions at all - not necessarily confined to above questions! Cheers!

Gordon

What is this research for?

CMF

Just general, am a sort of academic and this is what I am into at the moment...

TheBlock

academic or a journo????

CMF

Not a "journo" whatsoever!! Really, was just reading some stuff and thought it might be helpful to see what a section of the general public thought... God, you guys are suspicious...

Degsy

I smell a journo..

CMF

Well, I'm really not. Have done a law degree and a masters in law but dont know whether to get into the academic thing full time or to go to bar so am "sort of academic" at the moment... Am doing this research as part of a paper I am writing (not for newspaper or other form of medium) But am curious now - why would it matter if I was a "journo"??!!

Sleepy

CMF, it's because lazy hacks are regularly trying to use boards to do their research and as this is a community bulletin board, posters are kind of expected to give something back instead of just leaching from it...

CMF

Aah, fair enough. That makes sense. Well in the spirit of giving something here is my view on the criminal justice system as it stands - it is far too retributive. The media in particular sensationalise every thing that happens and paste it on the front of their newspaper with graphic, eye-catching images, our crime rate has gone up but this is directly attributable to our developing economy and infrastructure which hasn't been handled properly. The public have been brain-washed by the media and this in turn affects how our political system works. We want to see something being done by the politicians and the legislature ends up passing ill-thought out laws which impose a harsher regime. something like 80% of our prison population is made up of short-term imprisonment. This is my view is absolutely ridiculous...

I just wanted to see if I was alone in my views or if there were others out there who agreed with me... That is all.

punky

I think you know more about CJS than I do but here's my opinion on 'are we experiencing a crimewave?' question.

I think the answer is no. There's always been quite a bit of crime in Dublin and other cities around Ireland. I don't think it's gotten much worse. The only difference is that there seems to be more guns involved these days. And the media seems a lot more sensationalist these days which increases the perception that there's a crime wave. The Irish Independent is a prime example. I can't believe I actually used to think it was a reputable newspaper.

With the exception of a few dodgy estates, the country is generally quite safe.

I would say, however, that there is a rise in anti-social behaviour in recent years. I think this has a lot to do with increased binge-drinking which is fueled by increased wealth.

Edited to stress that I don't see anti-social behaviour as being the same as 'crime', which I think of as organised or premeditated.

Degsy

Dunno about anti social behaviour/binge drinking being any worse than it used to be.I remeber grafton street in the 1980's and 1990's,people would be hanging around in gangs openly drinking and routinely kickeing the **** out of each other,you dont see anybody drinking in that area now.Where temple bar is now wasnt the safest place to go in those days either,the only thing in the are apart from a few pubs was teh focus point drop in centre with its attendant bunches of junkies hanging around outside.Outside of the capital,areas like donaghmede,coolock and parts of baldoyle were eay worse than they are now,knacker drinking was teh only form of entertainment many of us could afford and basicly any open space was a suitable venue.I remember about twenty of us drinking on sutton strand when larry mullen walked by with his dogs,the poor bastard nearly broke into a run when he saw us and he was one of the richest men in the area.Anti soscial behaviour has been and allways will be a problem,drinking is excatly the same,maybe teh focal points shift around and the media may become more or less interested in certain areas or certain activities but i wouldnt say its any worse or any better.

biko

punky wrote:

I think the answer is no. There's always been quite a bit of crime in Dublin and other cities around Ireland. I don't think it's gotten much worse. The only difference is that there seems to be more guns involved these days. And the media seems a lot more sensationalist these days which increases the perception that there's a crime wave. The Irish Independent is a prime example. I can't believe I actually used to think it was a reputable newspaper.

With the exception of a few dodgy estates, the country is generally quite safe.

I would say, however, that there is a rise in anti-social behaviour in recent years. I think this has a lot to do with increased binge-drinking which is fueled by increased wealth.

Edited to stress that I don't see anti-social behaviour as being the same as 'crime', which I think of as organised or premeditated.

I concur with this post. Drinking has been the curse of the Irish for a long time but in the daytime it's no worse than any other state in EU, probably much safer.

CMF, linky to the paper please when released. It'd be an interesting read.

InFront

Yes of course crime has gotten worse in the past 20 years, you dont need to be einstein to work that one out. I dont know how bad it is, but... last Friday night I was walking up along Dame Street (maybe 10.30pm) towards the cathedral, and just where you get to Dublin castle and theres a bit of scaffolding or something, some *knacker* came right up to my face and punched me in the jaw! I dont know what his reason was , I was on my mobile at the time maybe something he overheard or my accent annoyed him? or who knows. It hurt like hell! Anyway it was pointless and he didnt know me. In the heat of the moment, I gave him some sort of abuse, cant remember what exactly, when I saw that he wanted to fight I picked up my coat and ducked into a newsagents. He came in after me and started swearing at me and generally namecalling. I have never expereinced this before. Whats more, the whole time, people were passing by on the street without concern. I ran out quite quickly, and down at around the habitat store I met two guards coming opposite to me and told them the story. They were very nice and completely sympathetic and even offered to get me something for my jaw. But if this is the kind of thing that they, by their accounts, seem to be putting up with, then yes, I would say there is a crime problem. Whether its better or worse than any other country is a question for a statistician, this is just my personal experience. (Apologies for personal rant:D)

I do agree with punky however, that the media to tend to be sensationalist, especially the Indo who are getting worse than The (God forbid it) sunday world for their gangsta reportage in relation to organised crime

However I disagree that anti social behaviour by punky's meaning of the phrase isnt really a crime. All crime, organised or drunken, is anti social behaviour, and all anti social behaviour is criminial.

Degsy

InFront wrote:

Yes of course crime has gotten worse in the past 20 years, you dont need to be einstein to work that one out. I dont know how bad it is, but... last Friday night I was walking up along Dame Street (maybe 10.30pm) towards the cathedral, and just where you get to Dublin castle and theres a bit of scaffolding or something, some *knacker* came right up to my face and punched me in the jaw! I dont know what his reason was , I was on my mobile at the time maybe something he overheard or my accent annoyed him? or who knows. It hurt like hell! Anyway it was pointless and he didnt know me. In the heat of the moment, I gave him some sort of abuse, cant remember what exactly, when I saw that he wanted to fight I picked up my coat and ducked into a newsagents. He came in after me and started swearing at me and generally namecalling. I have never expereinced this before. Whats more, the whole time, people were passing by on the street without concern. I ran out quite quickly, and down at around the habitat store I met two guards coming opposite to me and told them the story. They were very nice and completely sympathetic and even offered to get me something for my jaw. But if this is the kind of thing that they, by their accounts, seem to be putting up with, then yes, I would say there is a crime problem. Whether its better or worse than any other country is a question for a statistician, this is just my personal experience. (Apologies for personal rant:D)

I do agree with punky however, that the media to tend to be sensationalist, especially the Indo who are getting worse than The (God forbid it) sunday world for their gangsta reportage in relation to organised crime

However I disagree that anti social behaviour by punky's meaning of the phrase isnt really a crime. All crime, organised or drunken, is anti social behaviour, and all anti social behaviour is criminial.

Firstly,were you around 20 years ago to compare?
Secondly,Use your head when in a dodgy area and dont be babbling away on your phone at the top of your voice,its annoying and potentially dangerous as you havnt got your wits about you.

J.R.HARTLEY

well i was around 20 years ago and in general you didn't hear half of these attacks then, the simple truth as stated before is that more money has introduced more alcohol into the equation and we have far more drunken attacks in the city in the wee hours of the morning, we also have a more brazen organised crime problem with people trying to rob banks post offices ATMs more frequently and unfortunately better armed, personally i'd be very hardline on crime and i feel that the justice system is backwards, with rapists and kiddi fiddlers getting only anywhere between 3-6 years and yet mountjoy is full of lads that are in and out for short term stays, not rehabilitated at all, the system fails people like the drug addict who tries to rob a house or a purse by putting him in a jail thats reportedly awash with drugs.

Genghis

I don't think we have a particularly serious crime issue in this country. I would say that the situation is constantly hyped by the media and by the opposition.

The profile of crime, over the past two decades has changed. Certainly I remember a time when car radio theft was very commonplace, when burglaries happened frequently, and where car theft was something you almost expected. These sort of crimes, I would say, have diminished greatly.

On the other hand, violent crimes appear to have escalated, but this escalation appears to be confined almost exclusively to the gangs that now control the lucrative drug trade in this country.

I would say that both trends are a derivative of the recent boom. Petty crime is reduced since nearly everyone now is employed - car theft, break-ins and opportunistic crimes happen when you get a lot of unemployed people who are both struggling to survive and who plainly have little better to do.

Serious violent crime within the gang fraternity has come about because there is now a much more vibrant market for drugs, and positions within that supply chain are highly valuable and zealously guarded. The bouyant market for drugs is a result also of the economic boom - as more and more people turn to recreational drugs.

This country is a small place. Every near-fatal accident is reported nationally; a single bad experience with the health service can be extrapolated out of all proportion; and a sensationalist crime agenda can be easily pursued by the media as crime is (like anywhere else) an everyday occurence.

InFront

Degsy wrote:

Firstly,were you around 20 years ago to compare?

No of course not, but the records show that crime is on the increase

From The Central Statistics Office

Link

Year Indictable/Headline Offences Recorded
1950 12,231
1955 11,531
1960 15,375
1965 16,736
1970 30,756
1975 48,387
1980 72,782
1985 91,285
1990 87,658
1995 102,484
2000 73,276
2001 86,633
2002 106,415
2003 103,360

Source: Garda Síochána

Secondly,Use your head when in a dodgy area and dont be babbling away on your phone at the top of your voice,its annoying

??? I wasnt speaking at the top of my voice, my Dad happened to ring to know if I was coming home that night so he could leave a key out. I agree that you have to accept the dangers of walking on a (nonetheless very busy) street at 1030pm, but I dont apoogize over getting hit. Anyways that event isnt here nor there I was just giving my personal experience. The main point is that yes, crime has gotten worse according to unbiased statistics.

PCPhoto

This might interest you. Just finished reading this book on crime in Ireland. Its just out and called 'Minor Offences, Ireland's Cradle of Crime' by a guy called Tom Tuite.
It focuses on juvenile crime and shows where the crims start out. A real glimpse at the darker side of Irish youth. Here's a useful link with more info.
http://www.gillmacmillan.ie/Ecom/Library3.nsf/CatalogByCategory/D8AF394F9C16B1D48025726D004722E5?OpenDocument

nesf

Genghis wrote:

I don't think we have a particularly serious crime issue in this country. I would say that the situation is constantly hyped by the media and by the opposition.

The profile of crime, over the past two decades has changed. Certainly I remember a time when car radio theft was very commonplace, when burglaries happened frequently, and where car theft was something you almost expected. These sort of crimes, I would say, have diminished greatly.

On the other hand, violent crimes appear to have escalated, but this escalation appears to be confined almost exclusively to the gangs that now control the lucrative drug trade in this country.

I would say that both trends are a derivative of the recent boom. Petty crime is reduced since nearly everyone now is employed - car theft, break-ins and opportunistic crimes happen when you get a lot of unemployed people who are both struggling to survive and who plainly have little better to do.

Serious violent crime within the gang fraternity has come about because there is now a much more vibrant market for drugs, and positions within that supply chain are highly valuable and zealously guarded. The bouyant market for drugs is a result also of the economic boom - as more and more people turn to recreational drugs.

This country is a small place. Every near-fatal accident is reported nationally; a single bad experience with the health service can be extrapolated out of all proportion; and a sensationalist crime agenda can be easily pursued by the media as crime is (like anywhere else) an everyday occurence.

I agree completely, you've summed it up quite well. Relative to other countries we don't have that much crime tbh.

InFront, using Headline Crime figures can be misleading, there's some seriously odd offences in there. I'm not saying that violent crime hasn't increased but a more interesting analysis would be of the changing types of crime in this country rather than the raw Headline figure. You'd also have to account for increasing levels of urbanisation etc.

Kernel

CMF wrote:

We want to see something being done by the politicians and the legislature ends up passing ill-thought out laws which impose a harsher regime. something like 80% of our prison population is made up of short-term imprisonment. This is my view is absolutely ridiculous...

I could write for hours about this topic, but to directly answer one part of your question: I believe that the legislation that McDowell has passed is pragmatic and appropriate (re: Criminal Justice Act detention and inferences from not answering certain questions), and not as open to abuse as liberal media alleges (they are also guilty of sensationalism). I think existing legislation and past case law (as well as sentencing, which as you know leads to appeal cases) is skewed too much in favour of the offender.

I believe that your view on the matter is liberal, and suspect you are looking at the problem of criminality from a sociological perspective. In itself, sociology is a valid and noble pursuit, but I have my doubts that it is pragmatic enough as it stands.

I would be in favour of the so called 'broken windows' hypothesis because I believe it is more effective in the real world - particularly in urban areas. Once the problem of criminality has been brought to a more manageable level, then we can look at root cause and possible solution/prevention.

Civil liberties of the few who cause so many problems to the majority, vs. civil rights of the majority to enjoy their lawful lives without persecution from crime. It wouldn't and hasn't bothered me to be stopped and searched etc. as I understand it is for the greater good of society.

Can you elaborate on your statement re: 80% of prisoners being in short term custody, and why you feel it is ridiculous?

Basically, I would like a society where the weak are free to go about their business without any fear of molestation from thugs and robbers. Where elderly people and women are not prisoners in their homes after dark.

Also, too many people indulge in recreational drug use and then complain about high levels of crime - hypocrisy. People need to look at themselves, as it is people who make up society. People need to ask, what have I done for society to improve it?

mike65

I would'nt try to compare stats for crime, its a moving target as whats an Indictable offence changes over the years. It should also be noted that in 1950 no-one had anything worth robbing.

Mike.

gurramok

PCPhoto wrote:

This might interest you. Just finished reading this book on crime in Ireland. Its just out and called 'Minor Offences, Ireland's Cradle of Crime' by a guy called Tom Tuite.
It focuses on juvenile crime and shows where the crims start out. A real glimpse at the darker side of Irish youth. Here's a useful link with more info.
http://www.gillmacmillan.ie/Ecom/Library3.nsf/CatalogByCategory/D8AF394F9C16B1D48025726D004722E5?OpenDocument

From experience of growing up in a deprived area(if you knew my address, you wouldnt come here if i paid ya )...the people where i'm from experienced alot of juvenile crime in the late 90s from a local minority of young thugs who terrorised the community in anti-social behaviour and especially joyriding practically everyday with burning the poor victims cars when they're done.

Try experience being physically afraid of them every day and with sleepless nights and you cannot do anything about it as the gardai don't care/respond and you certainly don't confront them as they have better weapons(those things called guns/knives )

Now, the gardai had no resources to tackle them, the courts system was too lenient when they are caught for their first time after committing their 100th crime(literally) and still is.
As these thugs grew out of been teenagers into adults in their 20s, they have migrated to gangland style crime like what you have read in the papers.
The papers have sensationalised alot of it, most gangsters will not touch you as they dont want the attention, but if you get in their way all it takes is one wrong look and you know the result.

They have been involved in soft/hard drugs, armed robbery of banks/atm's, you name it, they've done it.
Most have moved out of the area to more affluent areas due to their new found riches, some have died from OD's, killing each other for their spoils.
3 i know personally were involved in murder(not BS here), 1 died from OD, the gardai can't get hard evidence against the other 2 who continue their activites.
Not a single person living here would be a witness against any one of them in a court of law because the result is an early grave guaranteed.

Now, if this particular gang was targeted by the authorities to direct them on the correct path at a young age, things would have been different(look at me:))
Thats just a local example. And you know what, the amount of gardai stationed in this suburb of circa 40,000 is still the same as it was 20 years ago when it was half the population.
The reason?-- its predominantly working class.

The biggest example in this country was the extreme ignorance and shame of the authorities in letting the likes of Heroin take hold in the early 80's which ya know yourself generated crime wave after crime wave but alas, it only happened in poorer areas hence lack of action from so called politicians/gardai as it didn't affect their community backgrounds.

So yes OP, a & b & c that you listed would help a long way to solve the problem, but it'll only happen when it reaches the middle classes i'm afraid.

simu

CMF wrote:

I am doing a bit of research on our criminal justice system (CJS) at the moment and was wondering if I could get some opinions on how well ye think the CJS works?

First, do you think Ireland is in the middle of a crime crisis?

If so, what informs this opinion?

Do you get alot of your information from the media?

If so, what media (eg newspaper, radio, telly etc.)

What do you think is the best way for crime in Ireland to be tackled:
a) more garda powers, harsher punishment, longer sentences
b) more focus on the causes of crime and the individual offender
c) a more community oriented approach e.g. the juvenile diversion project

How do you feel about political responses to crime in Ireland? Are they adequate?

Would really appreciate any opinions at all - not necessarily confined to above questions! Cheers!

No, I don't see any crime crisis in Cork City anyway. Crime doesn't seem to be a huge problem here. It was worse in the 80s - our house used to get broken into often back then, for instance, but that was annoying more than anything else.

There seems to be more of a problem with law and order in parts of Dublin and Limerick, from what I see in the papers.

Kernel

gurramok wrote:

The biggest example in this country was the extreme ignorance and shame of the authorities in letting the likes of Heroin take hold in the early 80's which ya know yourself generated crime wave after crime wave but alas, it only happened in poorer areas hence lack of action from so called politicians/gardai as it didn't affect their community backgrounds.

So yes OP, a & b & c that you listed would help a long way to solve the problem, but it'll only happen when it reaches the middle classes i'm afraid.

Are you living in Finglas, or Blanch/Mulhuddart? Good post, I don't strictly subscribe to the class argument, but one thing I do know, is that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. As I mentioned, people need to look at what they have done; ie. do they report crimes, do they have neighbourhood watch programmes, do they shun criminal residents? On a political level, do they vote? Do they voice their opinions to politicians? In many working class areas, the answers are no to most of those questions, and that's why they become problem areas.

nesf

Kernel wrote:

Are you living in Finglas, or Blanch/Mulhuddart? Good post, I don't strictly subscribe to the class argument, but one thing I do know, is that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. As I mentioned, people need to look at what they have done; ie. do they report crimes, do they have neighbourhood watch programmes, do they shun criminal residents? On a political level, do they vote? Do they voice their opinions to politicians? In many working class areas, the answers are no to most of those questions, and that's why they become problem areas.

To abuse a horrible cliché it's a vicious cycle. The people don't speak up because they figure no one will listen and no one listens because the people never speak up. You can see it in voter turnout etc, if working class areas don't make their voices heard via the ballot box they won't get equal representation and it's really as simple as that.

simu

^^^

Maybe it's time to bring in a quota.

gurramok

Kernel wrote:

Are you living in Finglas, or Blanch/Mulhuddart? Good post, I don't strictly subscribe to the class argument, but one thing I do know, is that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. As I mentioned, people need to look at what they have done; ie. do they report crimes, do they have neighbourhood watch programmes, do they shun criminal residents? On a political level, do they vote? Do they voice their opinions to politicians? In many working class areas, the answers are no to most of those questions, and that's why they become problem areas.

Yes, i live on an estate more nearer to Finglas but Blanch is up the road, i'm familiar with both areas as i have family in both and work in Blanch, how did ya know?

People only report crimes when they know they wont be waiting all day for a garda to arrive. Most would not bother report a small crime like a smashed window, slashed tyre maybe. Obviously serious incidents would be reported, then wait and sit around for the men and woman in blue to arrive.

No neighbourwatch program, whats the point, if anything is seen, you'll never see a garda car like above, plus you'll need anonymity to protect yourself.

Some vote, some don't, its hardly enthusiastic voting either.
But its only in recent times around here that they do realize that voting does help(only speak for this area on this)...in the old days, people to use vote for mainstream parties but lost faith mostly to false promises on crime problem but also other issues like economy(prospect of jobs), taxes(personal, bin taxes), state of area like everywhere else. Mainstream parties are seen to be catering for the rich whether middle class are rich or not is another issue.

Now most people would vote for alternative parties like SF/SP/Ind, and then middle class voters wonder why

About shunning criminal residents, most just ignore them, its not worth literally your life to get involved in matters or if its just youths acting the goat, we just carry on regardless.
The law is on the side of the criminal, don't even think about been vigilante, the gardai have clamped down on that as its putting them in a bad light.

To give you a contrast, Mrs Gurramok lives in the heart of D4 in a working class area right beside upper market streets where they shop in the same shops, socialise in the same pubs, where you can park your brand new beamer on the street without it ever been touched.
The response time from the Gardai is 'normal', you'd get a visit from a cop within 10 minutes upon reporting it, you'll always see foot patrols of Gardai, unseen in my area for donkeys years, talk about co-incidence or what!

You've heard of the term '2-tier health service' bandied about in media, well its like 2-tier policing and it does exist.