never mind the t-shirt

thebaz

some guy from Bray got a week inside for turning up in court in a sex pistols never mind the bollock t-shirt -- he was up on shoplifting charges -- didn't know you could be jailed for your court room attire -- the general used to wear mickey mouse t-shirts to piss the authorities off - and they couldn't put him away.

Adam

Can you be done for wearing such in public?

Sangre

ehhh...yeah

Zebra3

thebaz wrote:

some guy from Bray got a week inside for turning up in court in a sex pistols never mind the bollock t-shirt -- he was up on shoplifting charges -- didn't know you could be jailed for your court room attire -- the general used to wear mickey mouse t-shirts to piss the authorities off - and they couldn't put him away.

Think Cahill only showed off his Mickey Mouse stuff outside the courts.

Judges can do you for anything they deem to be an insult to the court and/or their authority.

John R

He was probably locked up for contempt of court. Pissing off a judge in their courtroom is never a clever thing, turning up for your court date with an offensive (to the sort of person that is likely to be a judge) t-shirt is just stupid.

The sad thing is that he is probably going to spend longer inside for wearing that shirt than for the shoplifting.

Adam

How is it that you never see/hear of it happening? Well, I haven't anyway, even though you'd see a lot of the like throughout the city centre every day I'm sure!

lostexpectation

its a pity the judge couldn't get over himself

Lust4Life

When you think about it, the Judge was probably a teen when the Sex Pistols were new! Doesn't that scare the B'jaysus out of you?????

Gone West

Lust4Life wrote:

When you think about it, the Judge was probably a teen when the Sex Pistols were new! Doesn't that scare the B'jaysus out of you?????

She would have been in her 20s, probably.
But most people would have grown out of their whole "1970s Punk phase" by this time.
The guy wore a massive yellow and black t-shirt for one reason.
To piss off the judge. He wrongly believed that nothing could be done about it.
There is also massive precedent (even in Ireland) for this.
People have been tossed out of court on contempt for stuff like having mobile phones ring, or shouting at people in court.

My only problem with this case is that the man immediately realised that he was getting in trouble bigtime on this. So straight away, he requested (and so did his solicitor) that he be allowed to be sent a new shirt from home, and re-sit his case. Small courts are flexible like this, and would usually accomodate you. However, the judge declined his requests and sent him to a cell for a week for the t-shirt.

Small town judge, big boots.
Small time crook, big ego.

robinph

I seem to remember something recently about some jury member being booted out for wearing an fcuk top as well, although I don't think they got locked up for it they might have got a fine though.

Black Swan

Hummmmmmm? If someone didn't want to do jury duty, maybe if they wore an old "Hang Em' High" Clint Eastwood film T-shirt, if not the judge, then the solicitor for the defense would request that the person not be selected?:D

r3nu4l

Interesting - Virgin records shops (at the time) advertised the Sex Pistol album "Never mind the boll****" with huge window displays. They were taken to court for the advert being offensive.

However they provided a witness (a reverand) who said that the word "boll****" is not offensive as it does not mean "testicles" as we take it to mean! Unfortunately I can't remember what it does mean :rolleyes: but it's in Branson's autobiography "Losing my virginity".

Virgin won their case!
Therefore, I wonder can the guy can claim he was not being offensive, he just wore a T-shirt to keep cool as it was a very hot day and he didn't want to offend the judge by appearing sweaty and smelling of BO?

Worth a try?

OSiriS

There is a huge difference between offensive to the public and offensive to the court. The courts are the last bastion of ultimate respect in the country, and that respect is taken very seriously by the judges.

RandomOne

OSiriS wrote:

There is a huge difference between offensive to the public and offensive to the court. The courts are the last bastion of ultimate respect in the country, and that respect is taken very seriously by the judges.

... And wearing a distinctly "anarchy" T-shirt is about as contemptuous as you can be without opening your mouth, or not wearing anything at all.

r3nu4l

OSiriS wrote:

There is a huge difference between offensive to the public and offensive to the court. The courts are the last bastion of ultimate respect in the country, and that respect is taken very seriously by the judges.

I'm not arguing that but wearing a suit does not show respect to the court it simply says 'my barrister thought this would be a smart move'! How many suit wearing people have come out of the courts only to give two fingers to the justice system?

If the judge specified taking exception to the wording on the T-shirt then the judge was displaying ignorance of the meaning of the word and inferred an insult where perhaps none was intended (I don't believe this for a minute btw, but legally it could be challenged!).

OSiriS

Those people you mention were getting away with being disrespectful behind the judges back, the guy in the T-shirt was being disrespectful to the judges face. It's rarely if ever compulsory for a defendant to wear a suit to court, but then again neither is it to wear one for an interview, or wedding.

r3nu4l

OSiriS wrote:

Those people you mention were getting away with being disrespectful behind the judges back, the guy in the T-shirt was being disrespectful to the judges face. It's rarely if ever compulsory for a defendant to wear a suit to court, but then again neither is it to wear one for an interview, or wedding.

OK but it still doesn't respond to this point:

r3nu4l wrote:

If the judge specified taking exception to the wording on the T-shirt then the judge was displaying ignorance of the meaning of the word and inferred an insult where perhaps none was intended (I don't believe this for a minute btw, but legally it could be challenged!).

I'm not defending the guy (geddit, boom boom:D) but it is an interesting point and something that legally could be used as a prejudice defence in any appeal I suppose. Not that there will be one but nevertheless, still interesting. So if you don't have to wear a suit then a T-shirt is an acceptable item. This T-shirt is simply an expression of the defendants taste in music (free speech), does not contain offensive language (precedent set in UK court, unfortunately, where the UK goes in law, Ireland often follows:rolleyes:) so the defendant should not have been jailed for contempt.

OSiriS

The judge wasn't displaying ignorance, wearing that t-shirt was insulting to the court. Whether the defendant was deliberatly insulting or just an idiot is irrelevant. The judge was right to find him in contempt.

r3nu4l

OSiriS wrote:

The judge wasn't displaying ignorance, wearing that t-shirt was insulting to the court.

How was it offensive or insulting to the court, as I said earlier 'boll****' does not mean 'testicles'?

The judge inferred insulting behaviour from a guy expressing his like of a particular band/album.

I'm talking legal technicalities, definitions and loopholes here.

I honestly believe myself that they guy was being insulting and offensive to the court. I want to make that clear but I'm simply looking at it from a legal point of view, the same type that allows some drug dealers and murderers to go free simply because a warrant was served five minutes after expiry or a signature wasn't legible or whatever.

OSiriS

You are really missing the point. This isn't about the law, it is about showing respec to the court.

r3nu4l

OSiriS wrote:

You are really missing the point. This isn't about the law, it is about showing respec to the court.

I'm not missing the point at all, it does not show disrespect (i.e. contempt) to the court but the judge felt it did and the defendant was jailed for contempt of court which is a point of law so it is about the law. Seems like you are missing the point my friend.

BTW, I still agree with you 100%, he deserved to go to jail for contempt in my opinion but in law the opinion of the defence counsel does not matter, it is the law that matters!

OSiriS

Your opinion in the matter is irrelevant, the only person who's opinion matters is the judge when it comes to issues of contempt.

Mossy Monk

she needs to take that stick out of her arse and have some cop on. people dont get jailed for serious stuff and a guy gets a week for wearing a t-shirt

OSiriS

He didn't get jailed for wearing a t-shirt, he got jailed for disrespecting the court, the t-shirt was just the method by which he showed his disrespect. It really amazes me that we have fallen so far that so many people can't grasp a concept as simple as respect.

r3nu4l

OSiriS wrote:

Your opinion in the matter is irrelevant, the only person who's opinion matters is the judge when it comes to issues of contempt.

Of course my opinion is irrelevant in this case :rolleyes: The judge is hardly going to log onto boards.ie read my eloquent posts and say 'Wow, r3nu4l is so right, better reverse my decision' :rolleyes:

Contempt of court verdicts can be successfully challenged and reversed if another court decides the judge was wrong. So the judges decision may be final on the day in question but it is in no way final in terms of the law and is therefore not the only opinion that matters.

FlutterinBantam

Shoulda got two weeks.... comin into court on a shoplifting charge ..and giving the subliminal finger to the court....dumb + dumb+ dumb+more dumb

JustCoz

The guy asked for it, what an idiot wearing that into a courtroom

lostexpectation

the judge should have sent him home he would maybe have missed another day off work to come to court again, enough punishment, i have no time for these contempt of court is contempt of court rubbish, making up sentence and offences as they go along judges

OSiriS

You don't really have a say in the matter though:P Rules aren't there to be broken. If you are going to break them you better be aware of the consequences.

Chakar

That guy was a man in his forties, he was stupid enough to wear the tee-shirt and the paper said he was a fan of the band since he was 17.

What a loser.

JC 2K3

What if you got a judge who considered suits offensive?

You can't jail someone based on your personal perception of something

Hagar

lostexpectation wrote:

the judge should have sent him home he would maybe have missed another day off work to come to court again, enough punishment

Yeah he would have missed another day's shoplifting. That's his job, isn't it?

Chakar

JC 2K3 wrote:

What if you got a judge who considered suits offensive?

You can't jail someone based on your personal perception of something

Well it depends on the suit if it has insulting words printed on it then yes.The suit is universally recognised as acceptable garments to adequately present yourself in a good form.

There has to be order and respect in court, we don't want everyone going to court with tee-shirts saying bollocks.

boneless

We have many laws but little justice in this land.

Gone West

Hagar wrote:

Yeah he would have missed another day's shoplifting. That's his job, isn't it?

pwn.

JC 2K3

Chakar wrote:

The suit is universally recognised as acceptable garments to adequately present yourself in a good form.

It's not a law though....

seamus

Contempt of court is very simple. If the Judge deems a person to be undermining, insulting or otherwise disrespecting the authority (and civility) of the courtroom, then they can be found in contempt. The Judge's ruling on this is final.

Perhaps the Judge is well aware of who the Sex Pistols are, and saw the T-Shirt (anarchist punks) as two fingers; The equivalent of saying "**** you Judge and the whole system, you're all a load of ****". If the guy said this in court he'd be jailed, so why should he not be jailed for equivalent symbolism?

The same thing happened with those farmers in Mayo. Everyone was up in arms because "they were jailed for trying to protect themselves". Very few people seemed to grasp the fact that they weren't jailed for that reason at all.

EOA_Mushy

Why should the judge recieve respect in this manner?

seamus

EOA_Mushy wrote:

Why should the judge recieve respect in this manner?

What do you mean?

Sangre

I find it seriously hard to believe a guy was jailed on his first hearing for one week because of that tshirt. Judges know how busy/expensive jails are and don't send them there on a whim. The only likely scenario was he was told to dress properly for his next hearing.
If the case is true I disgusted. Upper echolons imposing their morality and decency on the working/middle class youth.

seamus

Sangre wrote:

I find it seriously hard to believe a guy was jailed on his first hearing for one week because of that tshirt. Judges know how busy/expensive jails are and don't send them there on a whim. The only likely scenario was he was told to dress properly for his next hearing.
If the case is true I disgusted. Upper echolons imposing their morality and decency on the working/middle class youth.

Don't they stick court transcripts online?

Sangre

Afaik its only High Court or equivalent and up. Also you need a case date to find it (don't have one) or a case report number (too early for that).