stars 1-2 river decision: can this guy really have the nuts here?

RoundTower

Didn't have much of a read on this guy at the time, he seemed straightforward enough. In this hand which we played shortly before, he took forever to call on the river. I was expecting to get called by a worse hand here: table was loose and I have been aggressive.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($345.05)
MP ($200)
CO ($57.05)
Button ($197)
SB ($361.75)
BB ($164.45)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, T.
Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, CO calls $6, 1 fold, SB calls $5, BB calls $4.

Flop: ($24) A, 4, T(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($24) K(4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $6, Hero raises to $22, CO folds, SB folds, BB calls $16.

River: ($68) 8(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $38, BB calls $38.

Final Pot: $144

Results in white below:
BB has Qh Jh (straight, ace high).
Hero has Ks Th (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: BB wins $144.

Here's the one I'm interested in, same opponent. I didn't really smell a bluff, but I didn't think AT checks here twice. And does a lone T ever do this trying to push me off a split pot? Pot isn't that big so calling hoping for a split seems bad.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($294.40)
UTG ($197)
MP ($34.90)
Button ($357.55)
SB ($239.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T, 6.
2 folds, Button raises to $4, SB calls $3, Hero calls $2.

Flop: ($12) J, Q, 6(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($12) K(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($12) 9(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $12, Button folds, SB raises to $40, Hero...?

pok3rplaya

Hand 1 please don't raise the turn. Especially in a big multiway pot like this its a mortal sin.

Hand 2 is worth a call.

Bp!

He played the 1st hand quite timidly , going by this and his checks on the flop and turn he may well be holding 10 10 here, though as you said the pot is small here and callin only to split a small pot aint too much fun.
Call is good for info on the player here (min raised on the button etc) but thats about it i think.

Marq

Roundtower will inevitably disagree with both of those statements.

In the second hand I raise the river 99% of the time. The other ten percent is when I'm up against an opponent who I konw has previously checked the nuts to me twice when I haven't been betting behind (a rare occurence).

"Worth a call" lol

pok3rplaya

Bp! wrote:

He played the 1st hand quite timidly ,

No he played it well.

Bp! wrote:

Call is good for info on the player here (min raised on the button etc) but thats about it i think.

This statment is rediculous IMHO. Calling for info is never good. NEVER!

ntlbell

Bp! wrote:

Call is good for info on the player here (min raised on the button etc) but thats about it i think.

What Info are you going to gain? the button who min raised folded to Hero's river bet.

Bp!

pok3rplaya wrote:

This statment is rediculous IMHO. Calling for info is never good. NEVER!

Jeepers relax horse!

With the small % of splittin the pot *and* seein what the player min raised on the button with is all i meant.

Are you gettin your phrases mixed up with "Raising for info is never good...."???

RoundTower

ntlbell wrote:

What Info are you going to gain? the button who min raised folded to Hero's river bet.

yeah I thought the converter mussed have messed it up but the hand looks right, bp just read wrong.

Bp!

ntlbell wrote:

What Info are you going to gain? the button who min raised folded to Hero's river bet.

Huh? We talkin about the same hand. I actually think folding is best here but i said *if* you want to call Villans $28 reraise , gettin to see Villans range of hands on the button to min raise (says alot about a player) might be the only good out of a call (with the small chance of a split) but as stated the pot is small so prob not worth it.

pok3rplaya

Bp! wrote:

Jeepers relax horse!

With the small % of splittin the pot *and* seein what the player min raised on the button with is all i meant.

Are you gettin your phrases mixed up with "Raising for info is never good...."???

lol sorry that sounded a bit harsh actually. sorry.

Still but, "for info" is never an excuse that should be used to call. Watch the table and you will get that info for free.

ntlbell

Bp! wrote:

Huh? We talkin about the same hand. I actually think folding is best here but i said *if* you want to call Villans $28 reraise , gettin to see Villans range of hands on the button to min raise (says alot about a player) might be the only good out of a call (with the small chance of a split) but as stated the pot is small so prob not worth it.

I'll try it again

The button in this hand min raised.

The button in this hand folded to hero's bet on the river.

The SB re-raised.

River: ($12) 9(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $12, folds [SB raises to $40, Hero...?

Bp!

Ah jaysus sorry lads, SB reraised.... man i need to read things properly!

pok3rplaya

This thread is funny.

Marq wrote:

"Worth a call" lol

I just don't like 3betting the river wothout the nutzez.

ntlbell

/o/

who stole the sb

pardon the pun

ianmc38

I instacall this river.

ntlbell

ianmc38 wrote:

I instacall this river.

what would you expect to see behind door number 2?

RoundTower

Results:

I called and he had AT for the nuts. I didn't really think he could have less than the straight here and I was considering folding. I think Marq is mad to raise and he thinks I am mad to consider folding.

Re a couple of things pokerplaya said about the first hand:

why not raise the turn? I likely have the best hand, there are a lot of hands that are getting a very cheap card to beat me and a lot of bad river cards, and villain's weak bet is likely to be a draw. Plus if it is 3 bet I can safely fold without having to cry over my possible 4 outs. If it was checked to you you would bet, right? A $6 bet isn't much more than a check here.

Also do you really think villain played his hand well? I don't, a much bigger bet is in order on the turn because there are so many worse hands that will call, and a lot of hands that are getting a good price to draw. The straight is almost always good here. Also leading the river is best against most players I think, not sure if it is best against me. I think he loses out on a lot of value here against most players.

cardshark202

Marq would have min-raised the river.

fuzzbox

RT: I've seen the results but I would prolly fold the river. You are "at best" splitting. So its a -EV call.

pok3rplaya

Marq wrote:

"Worth a call" lol

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